Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I can post scans if necessary Leon. Thanos destroyed one reality thats all. Adam Warlock was in another dimension as he siad on panel. If Thanos destroyed the multiverse there would have been no other dimension for him to travel to. Also on panel you saw him absorb Eternity, one reality.
actually i saw him absorb eternity, infinite, death AND the LIVING TRIBUNAL who is a multiversal entity.
look the only thing pheonix has done which affected all realities is the healing of the mkraan crystal which could have affected the entire multiverse, but then even CYCLOPS healed the crystal with his optic blast and energy from some other{no where near cosmically powerful} team mates, making that feat of the pheonix unacceptable as a basis to even judge her UNIVERSAL let alone multiversal power, i mean CMON cyclops?!
GS, I think you missed my point while attempting to defend Phoenix.
Wanda can consciously control causality. She, through her will, can choose which events transpire, even the most unlikely of events. Now, she may not have purposely meant for the Chaos Wave to destroy reality, but that is an effect of her power if you think about it objectively. Her power is to cause the most unlikely events possible to become reality. That Chaos Wave is a very unlikely event, and she inadvertently made it reality. She could also do it by conscious effort. She's not just a plain reality warper like say Proteus, she controls a fundamental aspect of reality. She could choose which divergent reality is the norm for all existence.
I never said Wanda was more powerful than Phoenix, I'm just saying that in a fight, Wanda could make the most unlikely of events possible that would account for a Scarlet Witch victory, because in actuality, that IS her power.
Your point about Franklin Richards is really of no consequence. Yes, he can create pocket universes with his powers. Wanda, with her powers, can cancel out any of Franklin's attempts at doing anything because through manipulation of causality she could render him powerless. Not that she has a wider range of abilities than he does, just the nature of her abilities. She conciously controls probabilties, making the most far out and outlandish possibility the norm.
She could make his x-gene spontaneously revert and he becomes a normal human.
Or a monkey in a G-Unit t-shirt.
That's a possibility, even if very unlikely.
It's the implications of Wanda's powers, GS.
Think about it.
Originally posted by illadelph12
GS, I think you missed my point while attempting to defend Phoenix.Wanda can consciously control causality. She, through her will, can choose which events transpire, even the most unlikely of events. Now, she may not have purposely meant for the Chaos Wave to destroy reality, but that is an effect of her power if you think about it objectively. Her power is to cause the most unlikely events possible to become reality. That Chaos Wave is a very unlikely event, and she inadvertently made it reality. She could also do it by conscious effort. She's not just a plain reality warper like say Proteus, she controls a fundamental aspect of reality. She could choose which divergent reality is the norm for all existence.
I never said Wanda was more powerful than Phoenix, I'm just saying that in a fight, Wanda could make the most unlikely of events possible that would account for a Scarlet Witch victory, because in actuality, that [B]IS
her power. [/B]
Its not that i didnt understand what you were saying Ill, its just that i didnt agree with it. It seems you're the one who has missed the point of my post. Wanda is a high order reality warper she can control causation the relationships between objects, events,variables etc. As you rightly said she can cause the most unlikely events to occur with a thought. She can warp reality around her as she chooses. That is enormously powerful , however the limits of that are Wandas power is restricted to reality and all that exists within its borders. When dealing with a being whose very nature, its very essence is derived from beyond the realms of reality and causality then Wanda is stumped. The likes of Phoenix and LT are beings who are beyond the restrictions imposed by reality , no part of them is determined by the factors of causality so Wandas powers would ultimately be no good against the like. That was my point.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Your point about Franklin Richards is really of no consequence. Yes, he can create pocket universes with his powers. Wanda, with her powers, can cancel out any of Franklin's attempts at doing anything because through manipulation of causality she could render him powerless. Not that she has a wider range of abilities than he does, just the nature of her abilities. She conciously controls probabilties, making the most far out and outlandish possibility the norm.
Youre making it sound like Wandas the only reality warper that has control over probabilities. If thats indeed what youre saying then thats untrue. Also my point about the pocket universes was just to show what Franklin as a 6-8 year old was capable of . As an adult its completely feasible that he would be beyond Wanda. You must also remember that Jamie Braddock another powerful reality warper was unaffected by Wandas machinations. His own power presumably nullified the warp effect upon his person.
Originally posted by illadelph12
She could make his x-gene spontaneously revert and he becomes a normal human.Or a monkey in a G-Unit t-shirt.
That's a possibility, even if very unlikely.
It's the implications of Wanda's powers, GS.
Think about it.
I understand the implications Ill. Its just that i dont see how one whose power is to consciously control causality can be anything but a joke to those not determined by or derived from causality.
Also please bear in mind that whilst the implications for Wandas abilities are virtually limitless her ability to bring them into effect, to alter causality to her will is NOT. She is still human and as such has many of the frailties inherent to such a form. She can tire, she can expend her resources etc.
Originally posted by GalacticStormExcept for the whole Jean Grey part of Phoenix. Considering that if Wanda effects causality in such a manner that the human Jean Grey never existed through several possible permutations of reality where John and Elaine Grey never conceived her, although nameless "Jean Grey" entity may somehow still be equivalent to Phoenix, she was never the character Jean Grey. In which case Phoenix is Phoenix, regardless of the human character Jean Grey's existence. At which point one must ask, how can A and B be one, if B is inessential to A.
The likes of Phoenix and LT are beings who are beyond the restrictions imposed by reality, no part of them is determined by the factors of causality so Wandas powers would ultimately be no good against the like.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Except for the whole Jean Grey part of Phoenix. Considering that if Wanda effects causality in such a manner that the human Jean Grey never existed through several possible permutations of reality where John and Elaine Grey never conceived her, although nameless "Jean Grey" entity may somehow still be equivalent to Phoenix, she was never the character Jean Grey. In which case Phoenix is Phoenix, regardless of the human character Jean Grey's existence.
You really dont seem to understand that concept about our archetypal forms predating our birth into creation. By Kaballah its the case with all of us but Chris C and GM have only applied it to Phoenix from what we've seen on panel. Therefore your point is moot. Life is just a school in those terms helping us learn who we truly are. These forms we are born into creation in are just shells and through life we must learn to better ourselves to advance ourselves so that we can return to our true state of existence. Jean Grey is Phoenix that is her true form. Her life as Jean Grey helped her remember and appreciate existence and life in all its forms. Thats the whole point. 🙂
You just need to get your head around this different concept and accept it. Dont try and apply your own/or mainstream views and ways of thinking on to it because it doesnt work. Who we are predates our manifestation in creation. Life helps you remember who you are. Dismiss it or grin and bare it thats up to you but its just how it is by those principles.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You really dont seem to understand that concept about our archetypal forms predating our birth into creation. By Kaballah its the case with all of us but Chris C and GM have only applied it to Phoenix from what we've seen on panel. Therefore your point is moot. Life is just a school in those terms helping us learn who we truly are. These forms we are born into creation in are just shells and through life we must learn to better ourselves to advance ourselves so that we can return to our true state of existence. Jean Grey is Phoenix that is her true form. Her life as Jean Grey helped her remember and appreciate existence and life in all its forms. Thats the whole point. 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStormArrogant much? You're "I'm so very clever I ignore any and every logical opinion that threatens my ideal of Phoenix by saying Kaballah and clicking my glittery red heels three times." thing is wearing thin. I can read and comprehend your ridiculous Kaballah claptrap just fine - but it's not a response it's an excuse. I really don't give a tiny rat's ass about mystical mojo conjecture. How bout you take a moment to "get your head around" the fact that it ain't all about GS and try and produce a logical response to my logical questions? Humour me.
You just need to get your head around this different concept and accept it. Dont try and apply your own/or mainstream views and ways of thinking on to it because it doesnt work. Who we are predates our manifestation in creation. Life helps you remember who you are. Dismiss it or grin and bare it thats up to you but its just how it is by those principles.
You've stated that if Wanda (or anyone else) unmade the humans John and Elaine Grey that "Jean" would still be Phoenix despite the fact that Jean Grey would have never existed. Which means the human character Jean Grey's existence isn't and never has been necessary to the Phoenix cosmic entity.
A character isn't a character unless they live the life of the character. You're arguing that some entity is still the human character "Jean Grey" even if she was never born as a human, named Jean Grey, and lived the life of the character. Basically "If Jean Grey was never written she'd still be Jean Grey." That is pure and utter nonsense. Jean Grey was born to John and Elaine, she has a sister, a niece, a nephew, a husband, a daughter from an alternate timeline, and two biological sons. Take that all away and she isn't Jean Grey she's just a nameless thing.
Under that scenario "nameless thing" may be essential, equal and part of the Phoenix. But the human Jean Grey isn't.
Now you've backpeddled and are saying that the human Jean Grey is necessary to the Phoenix because "we must learn." In which case altering the reality of the human alters the cosmic. The human could be frozen in reality at some point prior to realization that they were Phoenix. Meaning the Phoenix would essentially be frozen in reality and ineffectual and as such really not all it's been cracked up to be.
Pick one or the other and stay with it.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its not that i didnt understand what you were saying Ill, its just that i didnt agree with it. It seems you're the one who has missed the point of my post. Wanda is a high order reality warper she can control causation the relationships between objects, events,variables etc. As you rightly said she can cause the most unlikely events to occur with a thought. She can warp reality around her as she chooses. That is enormously powerful , however the limits of that are Wandas power is restricted to reality and all that exists within its borders. When dealing with a being whose very nature, its very essence is derived from beyond the realms of reality and causality then Wanda is stumped. The likes of Phoenix and LT are beings who are beyond the restrictions imposed by reality , no part of them is determined by the factors of causality so Wandas powers would ultimately be no good against the like. That was my point.
Thomas Aquinas ; 'The un moved mover ' 🙂
It's pausible that if SW unmade Jean, another telepath would of been given the role of Black Belt Phoenix and she'd be fighting John Candy, King of the Phoenixes or something.
Or maybe she could prevent the whole phoenix thing from happening and thus it would remain dormant or... de-conscience or whatever.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Arrogant much? You're "I'm so very clever I ignore any and every logical opinion that threatens my ideal of Phoenix by saying Kaballah and clicking my glittery red heels three times." thing is wearing thin. I can read and comprehend your ridiculous Kaballah claptrap just fine - but it's not a response it's an excuse. I really don't give a tiny rat's ass about mystical mojo conjecture. How bout you take a moment to "get your head around" the fact that it ain't all about GS and try and produce a logical response to my logical questions? Humour me.You've stated that if Wanda (or anyone else) unmade the humans John and Elaine Grey that "Jean" would still be Phoenix despite the fact that Jean Grey would have never existed. Which means the human character Jean Grey's existence isn't and never has been necessary to the Phoenix cosmic entity.
A character isn't a character unless they live the life of the character. You're arguing that some entity is still the human character "Jean Grey" even if she was never born as a human, named Jean Grey, and lived the life of the character. Basically "If Jean Grey was never written she'd still be Jean Grey." That is pure and utter nonsense. Jean Grey was born to John and Elaine, she has a sister, a niece, a nephew, a husband, a daughter from an alternate timeline, and two biological sons. Take that all away and she isn't Jean Grey she's just a nameless thing.
Under that scenario "nameless thing" may be essential, equal and part of the Phoenix. But the human Jean Grey isn't.
Now you've backpeddled and are saying that the human Jean Grey is necessary to the Phoenix because "we must learn." In which case altering the reality of the human alters the cosmic. The human could be frozen in reality at some point prior to realization that they were Phoenix. Meaning the Phoenix would essentially be frozen in reality and ineffectual and as such really not all it's been cracked up to be.
Pick one or the other and stay with it.
X theres no need to get worked up over a comic book disagreement. Dont start getting uppity with me over a siily matter like this. Thats distinctly juvenile. I'll let that slide for the time being but carry on and i will put you down if need be.
I havent suddenly backpeddled what on earth are you going on about. You only need to go back a few pages to see me state the very same thing.
Time and time again i have referred you to the phoenix thread on the Xmen forum so that you can see these ideas in detail with the appropriate comic book support quoted or shown.
I'll state once again. Who we are, our very essence predates our birth into creation. That is an idea in Kaballah. Life helps us remember our true selves and through death we can be reconciled with our archetypal forms in the white hot room. The appearance of the golden woman on the space shuttle to Jean Grey (who stated they were connected to each other) was based on those ideas. This same golden woman was revealed in Excalibur 64 to be phoenixes true form. In New X-men 151 Jean was reborn from the phoenix egg in the form of the golden woman. Endsong went on to confirm they were indeed one and the same. Whether you like it or not that is an actual idea believed by many across the world and that is the one that has been incorporated into this phoenix interpretation.
Jean Grey is Phoenix. Phoenix is the archetypal form of Jean Grey. The part of herself she is reconciled with via death. However Jean Greys Phoenix form exists regardless and at anytime she chose could manifest in creation as Jean Grey. Cos whatever Wanda chose to do in 616 she has no power over the white hot room.
I dont get what youre trying to do here. Because ive downgraded Wanda you seem desperate to try and get one over me on this phoenix thing. LOL.
This really doesnt mean that much to me. You started getting worked up after it became quite evident that Wanda wasnt all she was cracked up to be. 😉
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
X theres no need to get worked up over a comic book disagreement. Dont start getting uppity with me over a siily matter like this. Thats distinctly juvenile. I'll let that slide for the time being but carry on and i will put you down if need be.I havent suddenly backpeddled what on earth are you going on about. You only need to go back a few pages to see me state the very same thing.
Time and time again i have referred you to the phoenix thread on the Xmen forum so that you can see these ideas in detail with the appropriate comic book support quoted or shown.
I'll state once again. Who we are, our very essence predates our birth into creation. That is an idea in Kaballah. Life helps us remember our true selves and through death we can be reconciled with our archetypal forms in the white hot room. The appearance of the golden woman on the space shuttle to Jean Grey (who stated they were connected to each other) was based on those ideas. This same golden woman was revealed in Excalibur 64 to be phoenixes true form. In New X-men 151 Jean was reborn from the phoenix egg in the form of the golden woman. Endsong went on to confirm they were indeed one and the same. Whether you like it or not that is an actual idea believed by many across the world and that is the one that has been incorporated into this phoenix interpretation.
Jean Grey is Phoenix. Phoenix is the archetypal form of Jean Grey. The part of herself she is reconciled with via death. However Jean Greys Phoenix form exists regardless and at anytime she chose could manifest in creation as Jean Grey. Cos whatever Wanda chose to do in 616 she has no power over the white hot room.
I dont get what youre trying to do here. Because ive downgraded Wanda you seem desperate to try and get one over me on this phoenix thing. LOL.
This really doesnt mean that much to me. You started getting worked up after it became quite evident that Wanda wasnt all she was cracked up to be. 😉
Its not like X, to get worked up, about something as minor as a comic book discussion 🙄
Wanda's "chaos wave" was foreshadowing our own imminent demise.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Wanda's "chaos wave" was foreshadowing our own imminent demise.
looks like Whirly was right after all
Originally posted by Creshosk
Wanda's "chaos wave" was foreshadowing our own imminent demise.
😱 Thanks alot Cresh 🙁
Originally posted by Creshosk
Wanda's "chaos wave" was foreshadowing our own imminent demise.
Chaos cloud not wave.
and its very bad Astronomy 🙂
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/news/killercloud.html
as usually Cresh and GS speek half truths 🙂
Originally posted by Princess Diana
Chaos cloud not wave.and its very bad Astronomy 🙂
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/news/killercloud.html
as usually Cresh and GS speek half truths 🙂
Its you!!!!! I see youre trying to pull a Sentry 😉