Originally posted by dadudemon
I will NEVER try something like that out. However, I still leave it out there as something that COULD be done if I wanted to.
If your argument that sexual orientation is something that one chooses is true, then you should have no issue with choosing to be homosexual for the purposes of substantiating your argument, and then simply choosing to be heterosexual again.
If your argument that sexual orientation is characterized by behavior is true, then this should be especially easy for you, because the moment you choose to stop participating in "homosexual behaviors," you will be heterosexual.
It is "put up or shut up" time; either substantiate your argument, or stop maintaining that it is true without evidence.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Considering that I believe that genes play a role in behavior, it most certainly is. I believe that you have even provided evidence of "behaviors" linked to genes.
Your belief about the role of genetics with regard to behavior does not change that sexual orientation is characterized by an enduring physical, psychological, and romantic attraction to members of a particular sex, and not by behavior.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Ahhh...but if they believe it in their mind, would it not be true for them?
No; they would be delusional.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I touched on this with you the last time we talked about it. I think...but I am not for sure...that there is literally a measurable difference with these type of people. Where they once responded to male pheromones, they may NOW respond to female pheromones in the same manner. This is because I think that mind is greater than the sum of behavioral, genetic dictates.If they truly were homosexual before and are now heterosexual, then we should be able to measure it, right?
I also don't believe our sexual orientation defines who we are.
Your recollection could not be more wrong:
Originally posted by Adam_PoE“Gay Men Respond Differently to Pheromones” Randolph E. Schmid, Associated PressWashington
—The sexual area of a gay man's brain works a lot like that of a woman when exposed to a particular stimulus, researchers say.In an experiment, men and heterosexual women sniffed a chemical from the male hormone testosterone. The homosexual men's brains responded differently from those of heterosexual males, and in a similar way to the women's brains.
"It is one more piece of evidence . . . that is showing that sexual orientation is not all learned,'' said Sandra Witelson, an expert on brain anatomy and sexual orientation at the Michael G. DeGroote School of Medicine at McMaster University in Ontario, Canada.
Witelson, who was not part of the research team, said the findings clearly show a biological involvement in sexual orientation.
The study, published in Tuesday's issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, was done by researchers at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden.
They exposed heterosexual men and women and homosexual men to chemicals derived from male and female sex hormones. These chemicals are thought to be pheromones—molecules known to trigger responses such as defense and sex in many animals.
. . . The brains of different groups responded similarly to ordinary odors such as lavender, but differed in their response to the chemicals thought to be pheromones, lead researcher Ivanka Savic said.
The Swedish researchers divided 36 subjects into three groups—heterosexual men, heterosexual women and homosexual men. They studied the brain response to sniffing the chemicals, using PET scans. All the subjects were healthy, unmedicated, right-handed and HIV-negative.
When they sniffed scents like cedar or lavender, all of the subjects' brains reacted only in the olfactory region that handles smells.
But when confronted by a chemical from testosterone, the male hormone, portions of the brains active in sexual activity were activated in straight women and in gay men, but not in straight men, the researchers found.
The response in gay men and straight women was concentrated in the hypothalamus with a maximum in the pre-optic area that is active in hormonal and sensory responses necessary for sexual behavior, the researchers said.
When the female hormone estrogen was used, there was only a response in the olfactory portion of the brains of straight women. Homosexual men had their primary response also in the olfactory area, with a very small reaction in the hypothalamus, while heterosexual men responded strongly in the reproductive region of the brain.
Savic said the group is also doing a study involving homosexual women, but those results are not yet complete.
In a separate study looking at response to body odors, researchers in Philadelphia found sharp differences between gay and straight men and women.
"Our findings support the contention that gender preference has a biological component that is reflected in both the production of different body odors and in the perception of and response to body odors,'' said neuroscientist Charles Wysocki, who led the study.
It's hard to see how a simple choice to be gay or lesbian would influence the production of body odor, he said.
Wysocki's team at the Monell Chemical Senses Center studied the response of 82 heterosexual and homosexual men and heterosexual and homosexual women to the odors of underarm sweat collected from 24 donors of varied gender and sexual orientation.
They found that gay men differed from heterosexual men and women and from lesbian women, both in terms of which body odors gay men preferred and how their own body odors were regarded by the other groups.
Gay men preferred odors from gay men, while odors from gay men were the least preferred by heterosexual men and women and by lesbian women in the study. Their findings, released Monday, are to be published in the journal Psychological Science in September.
The Swedish research was funded by the Swedish Medical Research Council, the Karolinska Institute and the Magnus Bergvall Foundation. Wysocki's research was supported by the Monell Center.
Originally posted by queeq
Why?
This stems off of another conversation that Adam Poe and I had earlier. Homosexuality has been "measured" in several ways. The one Adam Poe and I are talking about is response to pheromones. If a person TRULY was homosexual and TRULY became heterosexual, their response to pheromones should reflect that.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Where they once responded to male pheromones, they may NOW respond to female pheromones in the same manner.
This doesn't make sense. You cannot choose to sexually respond to either gender's phermones unless you're hard-wired to.
The endocrine system governs a body's reaction to phermones.
Phermones are scentless, odorless, and completely undetectable by human perception save the body's hormonal system.
Thus you can't "choose" to respond to either gender's phermones if you aren't even aware of it's presence...
If if someone were tell you that you there were pheromones in the air, you cannot command your body to react to them anymore than you can command your heart to stop or your liver to stop processing poisons...
Originally posted by Quiero MotaFacing severe persecution and rejection. Being afraid of hate from their own family and friends. All sorts of things may come with being a homosexual which might very well be essential in character development.
Why would it matter "much more so" for them? What difference does it make?I don't see how it's defining of a person's character at all.
Obviously your attraction to people of the opposite sex do shape your character as well. Just maybe not in such extreme manners.
Originally posted by Quiero Mota[QUOTE=10215523]Originally posted by dadudemon
Considering that I believe that genes play a role in behavior, it most certainly is. I believe that you have even provided evidence of "behaviors" linked to genes.
Good point. Some people are more inclined to violence, a behavior. I'm one of them; I have anger management problems, yet I still deal with and suppress it.[/QUOTE]
Since sexual orientation is not characterized by behavior, and homosexuals are not genetically predisposed to certain behaviors, then this is not relevant.
Originally posted by Quiero Mota[QUOTE=10215523]Originally posted by dadudemon
I also don't believe our sexual orientation defines who we are.
I agree. I've never considered the fact that I'm straight as a part of what makes me, me.[/QUOTE]
Sexual orientation is an essential characteristic of identity. It affects the way in which a person is recognized or known, and defines an individual to himself and to others.
Do you honestly believe that you would be the same person if you were homosexual? If sexual orientation is incidental to identity, then why is dadudemon so reluctant to choose to be homosexual even for a moment?
Originally posted by Draco69
This doesn't make sense. You cannot choose to sexually respond to either gender's phermones unless you're hard-wired to.The endocrine system governs a body's reaction to phermones.
Phermones are scentless, odorless, and completely undetectable by human perception save the body's hormonal system.
Thus you can't "choose" to respond to either gender's phermones if you aren't even aware of it's presence...
If if someone were tell you that you there were pheromones in the air, you cannot command your body to react to them anymore than you can command your heart to stop or your liver to stop processing poisons...
Thanks for the pheromone education...I am sure there are some who appreciated it.
However, you are missing the point. Of course you can't directly will a change in your reaction to pheromones. That is sort of my my point. It is very much possible to change the way in which we react to things that should be programmed into our genetics. Things such as psychosomatism and the "placebo effect" lend themselves to actual measurable differences that seemingly defy what one would expect.
Sensitivities in your olfactory system can be changed. The pheromones are sensed via the olfactory epithelium. Sensitivities can be changed from hormones. Hormones can change on a whim for many different reasons and mood is one of them. Mood can be indirectly correlated to subconscious, or rather, involuntary dispositions of behavior. If one has truly switched poles on the sexuality spectrum, then it is very much possible that it is measurable via multiple variables. Mood is just one of the paths that can be taken to change hormone levels.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Sexual orientation is an essential characteristic of identity. It affects the way in which a person is recognized or known, and defines an individual to himself and to others.
I disagree with that. Like I said; I don't consider the fact that I'm attracted to women to be an 'essential part' or 'key component' to what makes me, me.
There's a lot more to me, than simply being a straight guy.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Do you honestly believe that you would be the same person if you were homosexual? ?
My given name and ethnic identity would be the same, but my tastes in music, clothes and cars would definitely be different.
So I wouldn't be identical to how I am now, but I also doubt I'd be a 180.
There has to be homosexuals out there who would agree with me, that who a person finds attractive isn't a defining characteristic.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If sexual orientation is incidental to identity, then why is dadudemon so reluctant to choose to be homosexual even for a moment?
I don't know. That's his issue. I never once said that someone can casually, arbitrarily change their orientation.
And you're right. If he believes that, then he should have no trouble hopping aboard the Dude Train.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It is very much possible to change the way in which we react to things that should be programmed into our genetics. Things such as psychosomatism and the "placebo effect" lend themselves to actual measurable differences that seemingly defy what one would expect.
The "placebo effect" has already been tried with phermones. For years. It's simply not possible for a person to change his or hers biologically ingrained reactions to phermones.
And "psychosomatism" isn't real medicine and has been discredited by many medical associations.
If you're clearly arguing via homeopathy which isn't credible, hasn't had an ounce of scientific evidence to prove it has real effects on their patients...
These "doctors" argue that you can quite literally imagine cancer away....
Originally posted by dadudemon
Sensitivities in your olfactory system can be changed.
In some ways, they can. In some ways, they can't.
Originally posted by dadudemon
The pheromones are sensed via the olfactory epithelium.
Partly.
They're sensed by the olfactory epithelium which acts as the input to the entire endocrine system.
It's more than just the nose....
Originally posted by dadudemon
Sensitivities can be changed from hormones.
Wrong. Sensitivity remains the same. The central nervous system releases hormones in reaction to phermones or other outside influences.
Hormones are tools for the endocrine and central nervous system.
However they're merely messengers. They cannot directly change the baseline orders' of the CNS.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Hormones can change on a whim for many different reasons and mood is one of them.
This is true. However I sense you're trying to argue that there is a "gay to straight" hormone that scientists haven't found...
Originally posted by dadudemon
Mood can be indirectly correlated to subconscious, or rather, involuntary dispositions of behavior. If one has truly switched poles on the sexuality spectrum, then it is very much possible that it is measurable via multiple variables. Mood is just one of the paths that can be taken to change hormone levels.
Mood can influence the release of certain hormones, true. But they can only influence so many things.
You're assuming that mood can influence the entirety of the CNS.
Wrong.
There are thousands of hormones. But they can only chemically interact with certain signals and they can only "tell" certain celluar activities to do certain things.
Mood is influenced by serotonin, which acts as host to various other signal activities as well.
However it has absolutely no effect or for that matter anything to do with phermones or 'senstivities' to pheromones. It doesn't even fall into the same classification as phermones.
Human Male Phermones, for example, contain androstadienone, which is an offshoot of the steroid hormone testosterone. Pheromones are only detected by androgen hormones or rather steroid hormones which is related to secondary sexual characteristics and you guessed it, sexuality....
The hormones that influence mood, which you think is so important, have nothing to do with phermones. They're called monoamine neurotransmitters which cannot influence sexuality or for that matter the activities of steroid hormones.
They can however inhibit sexual behavior if the person has an overload of serotonin. Namely the person has little to no desire for sex in any form.
However they absolutely cannot "change" sexual orientation or "reverse" the CNS's prime directive reactionary response to sex phermones. They simply have nothing to do with phermones.
So, in conclusion, "willing" or "psychically" or "spiritually" creating a "mood" that makes a man or woman go gay to straight is not only bullshit but isn't scientifically sound.
To put it simply, a male homosexual responds favorably to male phermones (androstadienone) because their CNS for some reason or another releases steroid hormones that create sexual attraction or excitement. Really it's all because of testosterone. Gay men really like testosterone.
Which is why scientists are studying the androgen hormonal system.
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I disagree with that. Like I said; I don't consider the fact that I'm attracted to women to be an 'essential part' or 'key component' to what makes me, me.There's a lot more to me, than simply being a straight guy.
My given name and ethnic identity would be the same, but my tastes in music, clothes and cars would definitely be different.
So I wouldn't be identical to how I am now, but I also doubt I'd be a 180.
There has to be homosexuals out there who would agree with me, that who a person finds attractive isn't a defining characteristic.
It's not the sexual orientation itself that can influence a person's character.
It's the societal response to that sexual orientation can influence a person' character.
Answer this question: Would you be the same person if you were black? Or Asian?
No you wouldn't. It's not because of the difference in skin color.
It's because of the cultural and societal response and expectations to that particular race.
Originally posted by Draco69
The "placebo effect" has already been tried with phermones. For years. It's simply not possible for a person to change his or hers biologically ingrained reactions to phermones.
Sources for that?
Originally posted by Draco69
And "psychosomatism" isn't real medicine and has been discredited by many medical associations.
That does not mean it doesn't exist. Ever hear of "reefer madness"? That is one of the "quack" things that come to mind.
Originally posted by Draco69
If you're clearly arguing via homeopathy which isn't credible, hasn't had an ounce of scientific evidence to prove it has real effects on their patients...
I am not arguing that at all. I thought this was a debate at this point?
Originally posted by Draco69
These "doctors" argue that you can quite literally imagine cancer away....
We are getting off base...I am not taking this route at all.
Originally posted by Draco69
Partly.They're sensed by the olfactory epithelium which acts as the input to the entire endocrine system.
It's more than just the nose....
No I think you are disagreeing for the sake of disagreement. They are sensed by the olfactory epithelium. Period.
Originally posted by Draco69
Wrong. Sensitivity remains the same. The central nervous system releases hormones in reaction to phermones or other outside influences.
Oh really? You mean you have never heard of a women who loves a certain smell or food and then after they have a child, the smell actually makes them nauseated...sometimes to the point of seemingly psychosomatic manifest ions such as red to teared eyes, and vomiting? I am not sure if we are using "sensitivity" in the same way. Wait...my fault, you think psychosomatism is similar to Santa Claus. 😄
Also, your above statement means that you have never heard of down-regulations or up-regulations either, right? heh heh 😖hifty:
Originally posted by Draco69
Hormones are tools for the endocrine and central nervous system.However they're merely messengers. They cannot directly change the baseline orders' of the CNS.
Originally posted by Draco69
This is true. However I sense you're trying to argue that there is a "gay to straight" hormone that scientists haven't found...
No. Not at all, but to your credit, I believe you came to that conclusion because you are trying to derive motive and direction from my posts...that shows intelligence on your part.
Originally posted by Draco69
Mood can influence the release of certain hormones, true. But they can only influence so many things.You're assuming that mood can influence the entirety of the CNS.
Wrong.
AHA! And this is where I have you.
Ever hear of someone sweating because of mood? Ever hear of someone whose skin hurts to the touch because of mood? Ever hear of someone loses control over their bladder or bowels because of "mood"? Ever "hear" of someone have a heart attack because of mood? Ever hear of someone's resting metabolism take a nose dive because of mood? Ever hear of someone get a headache because of mood? Ever hear of someone becoming much stronger because of "mood"? The entire CNS is so connected throughout our body that it is difficult for a complex organism like a human to keep from "affecting" the CNS with mood. The body is not a simple system of independent yet functional mechanisms that keep it in "motion". The body is a complex organ system of synergistic mechanisms that can almost all be influenced in a slight way by the mind. Spend a fews years in an ICU and then observe how much the mind really influences "medicine".
However, this is off track from my point.
Originally posted by Draco69
Mood is influenced by serotonin, which acts as host to various other signal activities as well.
Actually, you are wrong. "Mood" is influenced by MUCH more than just serotonin. Surely you have heard of monoamine neurotransmitters?
Originally posted by Draco69
However it has absolutely no effect or for that matter anything to do with phermones or 'senstivities' to pheromones. It doesn't even fall into the same classification as phermones.
You seem far to focused on the endocrine system. You started your premise out incorrectly so this next statement is irrelevant. Also, make sure you quote me correctly when you type. 😉
Originally posted by Draco69
Human Male Phermones, for example, contain androstadienone, which is an offshoot of the steroid hormone testosterone. Pheromones are only detected by androgen hormones or rather steroid hormones which is related to secondary sexual characteristics and you guessed it, sexuality....
You are now trying to convince me that specific hormones serve as the "detecters" of pheromones? I don't want to call you a fraud just yet...so please, cite your source for that information. My premise is speculation based on known information. You are trying to justify a counter argument based on what appears to be, incorrect information.
Originally posted by Draco69
The hormones that influence mood, which you think is so important, have nothing to do with phermones. They're called monoamine neurotransmitters which cannot influence sexuality or for that matter the activities of steroid hormones.
1. If you make claims like that, you of course need to cite a source.
2. My argument was not based on mood. You took the word I used and ran with it. Now I have had to use that word in a previous response to you.
3. You think that monamine neurotransmitters are the only hormones that are related to one's "mood". (This of course, flies in the face of my premise. It is not "mood" I am focused on, it is behavior.)
4. They most certainly CAN influence sexuality. You are thinking in microscopic anatomical terms when you should be thinking in behavioral terms as they relate to their chemical influences. I may be misinterpreting you and you are actually meaning "...cannot influence sexual orientation." If that is what you mean....THEN I DISAGREE AGAIN!!! 😆 😆...Dude, even if you cite a dozen articles, you will still be wrong about this...not because you don't know what you are talking about, but because the brain disagrees sometimes with what the body tells it, it should do...which brings me to another point....pheromones was just a thought but actually, it doesn't have to be pheromones at all that make a measurable difference. Since sexuality CAN be all in the mind, it may just be more related to monamine neurotransmitters than it is pheromone sensory from the olfactory system. Think about it.
BTW, putting merit into pheromone's influence on behavior is not very good science. I searched the interwebz and I could not find very much on actual tangible behavioral influences of pheromones. (I mean, one's sensitivity to certain pheromones didn't translate into influenced behavior...man, it doesn't sound like I am getting my point across with this.)
Originally posted by Draco69
They can however inhibit sexual behavior if the person has an overload of serotonin. Namely the person has little to no desire for sex in any form.
We are getting off track a little bit...and it would help if you cited a source for this kind of thing....
http://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/brainstorm/br5812.htm
😄
Originally posted by Draco69
However they absolutely cannot "change" sexual orientation or "reverse" the CNS's prime directive reactionary response to sex phermones. They simply have nothing to do with phermones.
Well, you really have gone off track. My premise was the person changed their orientation and their sensitivities to sex pheromones could have incidentally changed. I would like to see this actually measured. This would be VERY difficult to measure because how would one know if someone would change from "straight" to "gay" or "gay" to "straight" and THEN make a follow measurement once they did change?
Also, the "reactionary response" was actually a measurement of brain activation. Could this brain activation actually change with a sexual orientation change? In bisexuals, does the hypothalamus show a response for both pheromones measured? Are there those who are "straight" but react as if homosexual and vice versa?
Originally posted by Draco69
So, in conclusion, "willing" or "psychically" or "spiritually" creating a "mood" that makes a man or woman go gay to straight is not only bullshit but isn't scientifically sound.
Well, since you botched up the premise of your argument, your conclusion is unsound.
1. It is a measureable change to pheromone reaction as a function of sexual behavior that I posited.
2. You can't conclude this debate with a psychological conclusion when you have been building your point from a medical perspective. I know that doesn't make sense...but that is because I can't convey what you tried to do. You basically said that philly cheesesteaks taste great because you put gasoline in your car. You went from medical to psychological in a heart beat. You wouldn’t even be considered for a peer review if this was your conclusion.
3. You never cited a study that shows that the reactionary response to pheromones never changes, which would be one way to shoot my theory down.
4. Your conclusion is actually dead wrong because some people who are straight become gay and vice versa. Obviously, there is a psychological mechanism occurring there and it WILL have a chemical presence/influence.
Originally posted by Draco69
To put it simply, a male homosexual responds favorably to male phermones (androstadienone) because their CNS for some reason or another releases steroid hormones that create sexual attraction or excitement. Really it's all because of testosterone. Gay men really like testosterone.Which is why scientists are studying the androgen hormonal system.
No, gay men like men. Pheromone response should be almost incidental to sexual orientation. A man is not sexually attracted to another man based solely on a debatable influence of male pheromones. Do you think that there are homosexual men running around out there who did not have any genetic predisposition to homosexuality but still selected homosexuality as their primary sexual orientation….and vice versa.
On a side note…
My knowledge comes primarily from my own personal studies. What about you? You seem interesting to talk to about these things.