Sidious and Dooku versus Mace and Yoda

Originally posted by Escape81
No, Sorgo.

Palpatine fears Dooku's 'intent'. For example. Vader intended to convert Luke to the Dark Side so that they could both overthrow the Emperor, knowing neither of them could do it on their own. Vader is, by Lucas's own words, much weaker than Sidious, but Sidious still feared Vader's intent.

This could very well be the same case. In fact, I could argue Dooku needed Anakin to try and remove Palpatine, like Vader needed Luke.

No, Escape.

So... Uh... Sidious was... um... More powerful....uh... When he was bench pressed into a Generator Shaft? Sure, he electrified Vader, but Sidious still got whooped. Of course Sidious is more powerful. Vader is a cyborg, damnit. The guy can barely breathe! Dooku is a little old but he is physically fit and very in shape and his Lightsaber fighting doesn't consist of him twisting back and forth and he can also use Force Lightning and he most likely wont die if Lightning hits him.

In fact, I could argue Sidious needed an apprentice to keep his army stable.

To the "Fear" Post, Sidious FEARED Dooku. He was powerful man, and I am sure if Dooku wasn't powerful, he would not have to fear his intent, correct?

Dooku could have overthrown Sidious, but too bad it didn't go down like that.

Originally posted by Escape81
a) Dooku legitimately feared Sidious. Dark Rendezvous doesn't conflict with the movies, so it is considered canon. Even in the novelization, Dooku speaks of Sidious with awe and respect. And he does so in LOE, but with a large tinge of fear. Sidious feared betrayal and removal from power. Dooku was ambitious. Yet at the same time, this does not make Sidious fear Dooku's power. Because Vader (who is weaker than Sidious) also attempted to betray his master. Sidious knew, and feared this, but he did not fear Vader. Simply Vader's intent. This is very likely the same case. Especially how Dooku tried to get Anakin to tap into the Dark Side. I could argue that Dooku 'needed' Anakin to help him slay Palpatine, just as Vader needed Luke.

b) The Confederacy was losing by the time of ROTS. In LOE, they had been forced from the Core Worlds into the Outer Rim. This is a sign that they lost in the Core Worlds, and had to proceede into territory where the Republic didn't effectively control. In ROTS, they captured Palpatine, but were conflicted by Republic forces. Grievous's flagship was under attack, and could not flee. That battle resulted in:

1. Palpatine being rescued
2. Count Dooku's death
3. Grievous's retreat

The CIS lost that time. So they were forced to flee to Utapau and Mustufar. Even the Confederacy leaders were paranoid of defeat. But I will say Gunray is paranoid about everything. Anyways... The CIS began to back off when Sidious messaged the Separatists and told them Vader would take over from here. Too bad that resulted in their deaths...

Anyways. CIS lost. And not by their own grand design. Even thinking that is just odd and unfounded.

c) I don't believe Nai is correct on the Kuat Drive Yards and Techno Union. I also would like to see ironclad proof of this. It mentions nothing about it on the site, under the Techno Union's entry.

A) Sidious did not think Vader would try to overthrow him! He never mentioned it and never even saw it! Why didn't he just shock Vader along with Luke? Sidious didn't expect that Vader would emass the balls to kill him, but he did! Sidious was INCORRECT about his foresight, and it is what KILLED him!

B) Fine, the Republic defeated the CIS by ROTS, but not under Sidious' command. Only near the end when they were at the core worlds is when Sidious took charge of the army. The defeat of the CIS was by the Republic and the DEATH of the CIS was basically by Vader and Sidious, at the very end.

C) 😆 It does mention alot. I try to find the link for you, if not, well then you can continue to believe what you believe.

Originally posted by Sorgo
A) Sidious did not think Vader would try to overthrow him! He never mentioned it and never even saw it! Why didn't he just shock Vader along with Luke? Sidious didn't expect that Vader would emass the balls to kill him, but he did! Sidious was INCORRECT about his foresight, and it is what KILLED him!

Why did the Emperor try to get Luke to join him then? He knew Vader wanted to overthrow him, but couldn't because according to Lucas Vader is weaker than Sidious. It is a fear of intention. If Vader could get Luke to join him, Sidious would be screwed. If Sidious got Luke to kill Vader and take Vader's place, then he would have Luke as a servent for the next 20 years. It was a fear of what the other would do.

Originally posted by Sorgo
C) 😆 It does mention alot. I try to find the link for you, if not, well then you can continue to believe what you believe.

It seems strange that you are the only person who has ever claimed this.

Why did the Emperor try to get Anakin to join him then? He knew Dooku wanted to overthrow him. It is a fear of intention. If Dooku could get Anakin to join him, Sidious would be screwed. If Sidious got Anakin to kill Dooku and take Dooku's place, then he would have Anakin as a servant for the next 20 years. It was a fear of what the other would do.

It seems strange that you are the only person who has ever claimed this.

^ I guess Nai doesn't exist, then. 😕

Originally posted by Sorgo
Why did the Emperor try to get Anakin to join him then? He knew Dooku wanted to overthrow him. It is a fear of intention. If Dooku could get Anakin to join him, Sidious would be screwed. If Sidious got Anakin to kill Dooku and take Dooku's place, then he would have Anakin as a servant for the next 20 years. It was a fear of what the other would do.

Actually no. It was stated that the purpose of Anakin fighting Dooku was to test Anakin's power.

Originally posted by Sorgo
It seems strange that you are the only person who has ever claimed this.

^ I guess Nai doesn't exist, then. 😕

Yeah pretty much. lol. No, that was my bad. Still, unless wither of you gives a solid source, it doesn't matter to me.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Actually no. It was stated that the purpose of Anakin fighting Dooku was to test Anakin's power.

Speculation. A good one, though. There is over fifty reasons or more on why Dooku held back during that fight. Pisses me off how GL never mentions what one it is. He used a different form, for christs sake!

Hey Glen, I don't see you 'round GR no more. Sup?

I lost the link to GR. (purged my harddrive a few days ago)

Lucas(or one of the lucasfilm staff. there are five guys making commentary on ep3) said it was a test I believe. I seem to have misplaced my disc, so when I find it, all double check that.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I lost the link to GR. (purged my harddrive a few days ago)

Lucas(or one of the lucasfilm staff. there are five guys making commentary on ep3) said it was a test I believe. I seem to have misplaced my disc, so when I find it, all double check that.

Of course it was a Test, but there was much more behind it.

the link is www.galacticrivalry.tk

Nothing else was mentioned.

Thanks for the link. Edit: I'm getting that same error thing I was getting before. Email it to me. Thanks.

Originally posted by Escape81
a) Dooku legitimately feared Sidious. Dark Rendezvous doesn't conflict with the movies, so it is considered canon. Even in the novelization, Dooku speaks of Sidious with awe and respect. And he does so in LOE, but with a large tinge of fear.

I thougt I already explained that. Anything apart from Lucas direct work is interpretation of events by people not being Lucas and according to Lucas himself this interpretations are not more true than intrepretations of random fan X as long as his own statements and work isn't contradicted.

That means: As long as the films or Lucas clearly point out that Dooku feared Sidious or was less powerful then Sidious this point can be argued. Vice versa the same thing is the case with Sidious fearing Dooku.

Sidious feared betrayal and removal from power. Dooku was ambitious. Yet at the same time, this does not make Sidious fear Dooku's power. Because Vader (who is weaker than Sidious) also attempted to betray his master. Sidious knew, and feared this, but he did not fear Vader. Simply Vader's intent. This is very likely the same case. Especially how Dooku tried to get Anakin to tap into the Dark Side. I could argue that Dooku 'needed' Anakin to help him slay Palpatine, just as Vader needed Luke.

The point is: If you fear somebodies intentions you fear the person or at least a part of the person. Dooku was a threat to Sidious and therefore Sidious might have feared him. Dooku could have overthrown Sidious without even fighting him: Simply tell the Jedi about Sidious true identity or the true extend of his plans - do you think Sidious could have fought 10,000 Jedi coming to capture him or have remained in his political position if anybody revealed him to be a Sith Lord ? Hardly.

b) The Confederacy was losing by the time of ROTS. In LOE, they had been forced from the Core Worlds into the Outer Rim. This is a sign that they lost in the Core Worlds, and had to proceede into territory where the Republic didn't effectively control. In ROTS, they captured Palpatine, but were conflicted by Republic forces. Grievous's flagship was under attack, and could not flee. That battle resulted in:

1. Palpatine being rescued
2. Count Dooku's death
3. Grievous's retreat

The CIS lost that time. So they were forced to flee to Utapau and Mustufar. Even the Confederacy leaders were paranoid of defeat. But I will say Gunray is paranoid about everything. Anyways... The CIS began to back off when Sidious messaged the Separatists and told them Vader would take over from here. Too bad that resulted in their deaths...

The point is that the CIS was able to attack Coruscant and the CIS leaders didn't fear getting defeated - they feared for their own security because Dooku was gone from what we have seen in ROTS.

The CIS could have done serious damage to the Republic without even engage in a war. Think about the organisations that were involved in the CIS: Banking Clan, Trade Federation, Techno Union, Commerce Guild and Corporate Alliance. Those were holding great amounts of financial, economical and political power. If their intend was to destroy the Republic they could have done that without fighting - especially with hundrets or thousands of corrupt Senators.

Doesn't it seem illogical to you that they should have fought against a political system which benefited them ? Why engage in a military conflict to change the governing system when you already have some considerable amount of control over the political system ?

Basically they were two reasons:
a) Thinking about being able to gain even more profit under the reign of a Galactic Empire. Would you risk a war this if you can work good under the current political system ? I don't think so.
b) Sidious needed a military conflict to convince the Senate into using the Clone Army.

Anyways. CIS lost. And not by their own grand design. Even thinking that is just odd and unfounded.

c) I don't believe Nai is correct on the Kuat Drive Yards and Techno Union. I also would like to see ironclad proof of this. It mentions nothing about it on the site, under the Techno Union's entry.

Companies associated with the Techno Union:
Baktoid Armor Workshop (in fact the Trade Federations own design firm)
Haor Chall Engineering (provided starfighters, ground assault vehicles, and starships to the CIS)
Sienar Systems (developed all TIE fighters)
Kuat Systems Engineering (developed Ground Assault Vehicles, Starships and so on for Republic and Empire)
BlasTech Industries (delievering fire weapons to both CIS and Republic)

Kuat Systems worked for the Republic but was at the same time part of the Techno Union. BlasTech Industries delievered weapons to both sides while being part of the Techno Union. As I said: The CIS could have simply and effectively screwed the Republic - even without a military conflict.
At this point I maybe have to explain something: Sienar Systems, Kuat Systems and Corellian Engineering where concurrents but still all part of the Techno Union. The commercial organisations which joined the CIS are just the negotiating body for serveral corporations like the ones mentioned. They have some control about these corporations but aren't controlling them completely.

Being the boss of a company: Would you like to lose your political connections ? The CIS could have forced some corporations into working only for the CIS and this would have pretty much destroyed the Republics Army (Clone Troopers without weapons ? An Army without spaceships ?). They did not. Why ? Because they wanted to win the war at any costs ? I don't think so...

Originally posted by Borbarad
I thougt I already explained that. Anything apart from Lucas [b]direct work is interpretation of events by people not being Lucas and according to Lucas himself this interpretations are not more true than intrepretations of random fan X as long as his own statements and work isn't contradicted.

That means: As long as the films or Lucas clearly point out that Dooku feared Sidious or was less powerful then Sidious this point can be argued. Vice versa the same thing is the case with Sidious fearing Dooku. [/B]

I'm to lazy to type stuff for the rest of your post, but what authors right is approved by Lucasarts. That means it is OFFICIAL Continuty unless contradicted by the movies. Random Fan X, unless his work is approved by Lucasarts, doesn't mean jack.

a) Sorgo; sorry to burst your bubble, but Vader was weaker than Sidious, even when he killed him. Lucas even states that Sidious is more powerful, so you can't even argue otherwise. Palpatine was focused on torturing Luke mercilessly. He assumed - albeit incorrectly - that Vader would remain loyal. He did not, and chucked Palpatine down the reactor shaft. Odd enough, Vader was mortally wounded in the assault, and died shortly thereafter. Bottom line: there are ways to kill people who are more powerful than you. Especially when they aren't paying attention to you (Palpatine) or when they are 'faking' (Dooku).

b) No. Are you going to insinuate, Sorgo, that Sidious feared Vader? Or did he fear simply the threat of removal. Sidious is an old fashioned tyrant. And as a neo-Sith Lord, he never intended to be removed from his position of power. Paranoia, obviously, was a strong factor. All classical tyrants were ruthless and powerful; but fearful of usurption. Stalin and Hitler are just a few. Now, again. The literature is canon, I'm sorry to say, Nai, because they do not dispute with the movies.

c) Nai. As for Dooku revealing Sidious's presence. He tried it once, and the Jedi dismissed it. Dooku was identified as a Sith. Not until Gunray's blunder involving the mechno-chair did they firmly believe Sidious existed. Even if Dooku revealed Sidious's identity, it isn't guarenteed they'd believe him.

d) Again. I could argue that Dooku needed Anakin, whereas apparently none of you can argue opposite. Perhaps Nai can, however.

e) My mistake. On the Expanded Universe section, it does state that the Republic corporations you mentioned are part of the Techno Union. But do read the print. 'To Some Degree'... That may have been a rather small and pathetic degree. Who's to say?

f) Lmao. So, let's go out on a limb that they did NOT fight the war to win. You said because of Sidious's needs. If this is the case, then apparently Sidious did control the CIS whereas Dooku did not. If not, well, then apparently the CIS lost legitimately because they were 'weaker'.

In conclusion. Vader needed Luke. Dooku seemed extremely keen on subverting Anakin. If he truly wanted to stab Sidious in the back, he was apparently too insecure or too WEAK to do it on his own.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'm to lazy to type stuff for the rest of your post, but what authors right is approved by Lucasarts. That means it is OFFICIAL Continuty unless contradicted by the movies. Random Fan X, unless his work is approved by Lucasarts, doesn't mean jack.

a) Lucasfilm not LucasArts
b) Things remain part of the official continuity even IF they contradict the films - remember: That is the reason why they aren't seen as "canon".
c) There is a reason why Lucas sees the EU as something that happens in a "parallel universe". He doesn't want to limit his own and the fans ideas about certain topics. Therefore what the authors write isn't more valueable then "Random Fan X" thoughts - as long as both things don't contradict Lucas own work and statements. Because they are both interpretations of Lucas own work and the only person having some "majestic-dignity of interpretation" considering Lucas work is Lucas himself.

As long as Lucas doesn't comment something or directly shows something and events can be interpreted in different ways all possible interpretations have the same value as long as they don't contradict Lucas work.

Of course quotes from the EU literature can be used for arguments but anything not coming from Lucas about SW is "theory" that can be questioned. Or - coming back to the topic - making it easy.

Question: "Did Dooku fear Sidious ?"
Sean Stewert says "Yes.", Sorgo says "No." and from what we have seen both opinions can be right and just because Sean Stewert has written some part of the EU literature and Sorgo didn't, Sean Stewert doesn't have to be right with his thoughts because it's his interpretation of things displayed in Lucas work.

If you want to argue that point of view you should stop questioning things shown in the CW cartoons, the NJO series or things mentioned in the WotC game because they are "Lucas approved" in the same way the entire EU literature is. I know that they don't make any sense in some situations but hey...same counts for the other EU sources sometimes.

a) Sorgo; sorry to burst your bubble, but Vader was weaker than Sidious, even when he killed him. Lucas even states that Sidious is more powerful, so you can't even argue otherwise. Palpatine was focused on torturing Luke mercilessly. He assumed - albeit incorrectly - that Vader would remain loyal. He did not, and chucked Palpatine down the reactor shaft. Odd enough, Vader was mortally wounded in the assault, and died shortly thereafter. Bottom line: there are ways to kill people who are more powerful than you. Especially when they aren't paying attention to you (Palpatine) or when they are 'faking' (Dooku).

Sorry to burst your bubble, but doesn't that mean that even if Dooku was weaker, which I do not believe, that he could kill Sidious?

Vader was weaker, but Sidious still got pwned by him. By the way, I never said Vader was stronger, because it is blindly obvious he is not. I mean, the guy is a Synthetic mess.

b) No. Are you going to insinuate, Sorgo, that Sidious feared Vader? Or did he fear simply the threat of removal. Sidious is an old fashioned tyrant. And as a neo-Sith Lord, he never intended to be removed from his position of power. Paranoia, obviously, was a strong factor. All classical tyrants were ruthless and powerful; but fearful of usurption. Stalin and Hitler are just a few. Now, again. The literature is canon, I'm sorry to say, Nai, because they do not dispute with the movies.

Literature is Canon? I do not think so, Escape. Most of the resources aren't even with George Lucas. Like I said before, I could make a book about Dooku slaughtering three-thousand Jedi without Lucas' consent. That wouldn't make it Canon. Do not think because something has been officially published that it automatically regards it as Canon, because that is a truckload of smelly old bullshit.

c) Nai. As for Dooku revealing Sidious's presence. He tried it once, and the Jedi dismissed it. Dooku was identified as a Sith. Not until Gunray's blunder involving the mechno-chair did they firmly believe Sidious existed. Even if Dooku revealed Sidious's identity, it isn't guarenteed they'd believe him.

Count Dooku: What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of a dark lord of the Sith?
Obi-Wan: No, that's not possible. The Jedi would sense it.
Count Dooku: The Dark Side has clouded their vision. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith lord called Darth Sidious.
Obi-Wan: I don't believe you.

The Jedi dismissed what? It was brought to the attention of the Jedi, first of all. Which is why they knew of an undercover Sith Lord. And second of all, Dooku wanted to startle Kenobi and the Order. If he wanted to reveal Sidious' identity, he would have gone....

Count Dooku: What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of a dark lord of the Sith who is really Palpatine?
Obi-Wan: Damn.... Really?

d) Again. I could argue that Dooku needed Anakin, whereas apparently none of you can argue opposite. Perhaps Nai can, however.

Wow, your arrogance is pathetic. You think you have been putting down proof on a golden platter? I haven't seen a slice of proof from you, yet you seem to dismiss everyone elses views as Opinions and theories, which is the same shit you have, Escape.

I could argue Sidious needed Anakin to kill Dooku.

e) My mistake. On the Expanded Universe section, it does state that the Republic corporations you mentioned are part of the Techno Union. But do read the print. 'To Some Degree'... That may have been a rather small and pathetic degree. Who's to say?

Meh...

f) Lmao. So, let's go out on a limb that they did NOT fight the war to win. You said because of Sidious's needs. If this is the case, then apparently Sidious did control the CIS whereas Dooku did not. If not, well, then apparently the CIS lost legitimately because they were 'weaker'.

Weaker? They pratically owned the republic with finnancial resource and their deadly army. Sidious wanted removal of them because of their growing power. If Sidious owned such a Finnicial cornerstone and an even deadlier army, why not use it for himself? He didn't own the damned CIS.

In conclusion. Vader needed Luke. Dooku seemed extremely keen on subverting Anakin. If he truly wanted to stab Sidious in the back, he was apparently too insecure or too WEAK to do it on his own.

Maybe Sidious was too weak to kill Dooku on his own. Maybe he FEARED Dooku.

Eh, I skimmed so forgive me if this is out of place but LucasFilm OWNS and CONTROLS Lucasarts.

Sorgo? You're one to speak of arrogance... It blinds you, to quote a Star Wars character. Like many have told me, your obsession with Dooku is a handicap on your part. You are the self admitted savior and fanboy. It really does grow 'tiresome'. And your pro-Dooku 'owns all' attitude is the very epitome of pathetic.

a) Indeed. It is possible to defeat those who are stronger than you. But, you seem to be quite insistent that it is guarenteed. Not likely. Again, Dooku has a 50% chance at best.

b) Not necessarily. What if Obi-Wan fired off a retort that he didn't believe Dooku? What then. Especially if he mistrusted Dooku before. I don't think Obi-Wan would be keen on the prospect of believing him.

c) Nothing to say on the Techno Union part? How unlike you.

d) Isn't it odd enough how what Sidious wants with the CIS, he gets, especially when he doesn't control them, and how Dooku totally controlled the CIS? Or, could it be, *gasp* Sidious was the true ruler of the CIS? Dooku was Palpatine's servant and apprentice. Palpatine personally contacted the CIS and gave them commands. The council, Grievous, and Dooku. *HE* controlled the CIS.

f) Or maybe, he wanted Anakin to go further down the dark path and simply had Anakin give into his rage at Dooku, and slay him. Maybe Dooku was simply a pawn to use Anakin to go to the Dark Side.

Sorgo? You're one to speak of arrogance... It blinds you, to quote a Star Wars character. Like many have told me, your obsession with Dooku is a handicap on your part. You are the self admitted savior and fanboy. It really does grow 'tiresome'. And your pro-Dooku 'owns all' attitude is the very epitome of pathetic.

Right... And acting like you hold God's given word and your opinions and theories that apparently "Crush" mine and are considered proof by you isn't the Central Epitome and growth of Arrogance? Please! Cut me some slack here. Dooku doesn't own all, but saying Sidious can defeat him itches at me seeing is there is NO PROOF!

a) Indeed. It is possible to defeat those who are stronger than you. But, you seem to be quite insistent that it is guarenteed. Not likely. Again, Dooku has a 50% chance at best.

Bullshit to that. Sidious has a 50% chance at best at defeating Dooku.

b) Not necessarily. What if Obi-Wan fired off a retort that he didn't believe Dooku? What then. Especially if he mistrusted Dooku before. I don't think Obi-Wan would be keen on the prospect of believing him.

Then why did he alert the Council?

c) Nothing to say on the Techno Union part? How unlike you.

Didn't have to say a word, Escape. 🙄

d) Isn't it odd enough how what Sidious wants with the CIS, he gets, especially when he doesn't control them, and how Dooku totally controlled the CIS? Or, could it be, *gasp* Sidious was the true ruler of the CIS? Dooku was Palpatine's servant and apprentice. Palpatine personally contacted the CIS and gave them commands. The council, Grievous, and Dooku. *HE* controlled the CIS.

More bullshit. Of course he gets it! His apprentice f*cking owns it, Escape! Why the hell would he destroy the Leaders and the Army of such a wealthy project? Why not just redirect the CIS Bots to work for his army? It wasn't his. He would have kept them and the Leaders.

f) Or maybe, he wanted Anakin to go further down the dark path and simply had Anakin give into his rage at Dooku, and slay him. Maybe Dooku was simply a pawn to use Anakin to go to the Dark Side.

Maybe Sidious was afraid to fight Dooku because of his power and had Anakin kill him. Either that, or he was testing them, not knowing that Dooku was laying off and died because of it. That's one thing I hated about Dooku.... He should've eliminated Anakin. There is other apprentices out there... Like Kenobi!

Lmao...

You say Dooku controlled the CIS and Sidious did not? Alright, then. If that were the case, and Dooku clearly wanted to ascend to power and strike Sidious down, why didn't *HE* use the CIS to crush the Republic and Sidious with it, if it were truly more powerful and he had no fear of doing such a thing? Obviously he didn't. So you can explain to me why he didn't. 😄

You ask why Sidious didn't reprogram the CIS bots? Well, duh, let's look at it. Sidious, even as Emperor, still acted under the guise that he had nothing to do with the CIS and the start of the war. So, gee, if he mysteriously gained access to reprogram the droids, it would look very odd, don't you think?

And, as for why he didn't do it before, he wanted the Clone Wars to occur. If there were no droids to fight against, there'd be no Clone Wars.