Originally posted by Escape81Akward how you ignored my sources....
Alright then. Thanks, Deus. Then I suppose my sources to Dark Rendezvous and Labyrinth of Evil are both legitimate and can be used as sources in this argument?
Like I said, I didn't honestly really disagree with Sidious to a staggering point, but I did agree that Sidious feared Dooku trying to overthrow him. A Count from Serenno, also a Jedi with eighty years of experience and his own personal army along with already pretaken knowledge of the darkside and you're trying to tell me Sidious doesn't fear Dooku trying to interrupt his plans one single bit? Please! He feared everyone else ruining his plans, including the Jedi and the Politicians. Why not fear one of the closest people to him?
Dooku wanted to overthrow Sidious for all those years. Bottom line. And on the Invisible hand, he tried to do it. He wanted Anakin as an apprentice after he took care of Sidious, but Dooku should have killed Anakin and have ended it alone, maybe making Kenobi an apprentice! That would be cool. Kenobi a Sith? 😛
Yeah, Dooku feared Sidious, but he tried to overthrow him and that is what Sidious feared, so he had him killed.
Originally posted by Escape81
Sidious feared 'removal from power'. Remember his lines in ROTS. All those who gain power are afraid to lose it. He didn't fear Dooku. He feared Dooku's intentions. Dooku feared Sidious as a whole.
Why would Dooku fear Sidious as a whole where he didn't fear Yoda ? At least when they battled with force powers in AotC, Dooku should have realized how powerful Yoda really was and - if he saw that Yoda was as powerful as Sidious - he should have feared Yoda. He didn't and therefore I think he didn't fear Sidious. This would also be pretty much out of Dooku's character. He's a warrior, he's a powerful force user, he had seen quite some battles and faced powerful opponents in direct confrontation. Why should he fear Sidious who is a manipulative coward ?
And, your sources included the Revenge of the Sith novelization, which conflicted with the movies, so it isn't canon. Essentially, your sources lack validity.
I can find a "conflict with the movies" in any EU source which doesn't automatically make the entire source invalid.
From what we know Dooku with his reputation, his wealth, his diplomatic skills and his control over the CIS was a thread for Sidious. He would have been able to overthrow the Republic with sheer force (the CIS and Dooku basically had infinte amounts of resources - droids, money and so on). In fact Dooku was a bigger threat than anybody else because Sidious had direct control over the clones (and thereby he could have killed the Jedi at any point - as seen when he uses order 66). So the Jedi and the Clone Army were not threats for Sidious - the CIS and Dooku were at least just because of the point that Dooku could have revealed Sidious true identity at any point (and even after AotC the Jedi thrusted him in this point - they wear searching for the Sith Lord near Palpatine because Dooku said that the Sith Lord controlled the Senate).
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Nai, the Republic was winning the war as of ROTS as far as I could tell.
Because the CIS intention was to lose. The CIS had the biggest commerce organisations of the Galaxy which alone had tons of influence on the Republic. If they really wanted to win that war they could have done that.
Just an example:
Kuat Drive Yards or the Kuat Incoporation which built large amounts of the ships, weapons and so on for the clone army belonged to the Techno Union and the Techno Union was part of the CIS. Funny, isn't it ?
The CIS directly delivered the technology the Republic used to beat them. 😉
Originally posted by Escape81
Sidious feared 'removal from power'. Remember his lines in ROTS. All those who gain power are afraid to lose it. He didn't fear Dooku. He feared Dooku's intentions. Dooku feared Sidious as a whole.
That would mean he feared Dooku. He knew he was powerful enough to strip him of his power, so he ALSO feared his power.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Why would Dooku fear Sidious as a whole where he didn't fear Yoda ? At least when they battled with force powers in AotC, Dooku should have realized how powerful Yoda really was and - if he saw that Yoda was as powerful as Sidious - he should have feared Yoda. He didn't and therefore I think he didn't fear Sidious. This would also be pretty much out of Dooku's character. He's a warrior, he's a powerful force user, he had seen quite some battles and faced powerful opponents in direct confrontation. Why should he fear Sidious who is a manipulative coward ?I can find a "conflict with the movies" in any EU source which doesn't automatically make the entire source invalid.
From what we know Dooku with his reputation, his wealth, his diplomatic skills and his control over the CIS was a thread for Sidious. He would have been able to overthrow the Republic with sheer force (the CIS and Dooku basically had infinte amounts of resources - droids, money and so on). In fact Dooku was a bigger threat than anybody else because Sidious had direct control over the clones (and thereby he could have killed the Jedi at any point - as seen when he uses order 66). So the Jedi and the Clone Army were not threats for Sidious - the CIS and Dooku were at least just because of the point that Dooku could have revealed Sidious true identity at any point (and even after AotC the Jedi thrusted him in this point - they wear searching for the Sith Lord near Palpatine because Dooku said that the Sith Lord controlled the Senate).
Indeed. But Dooku was in awe of Sidious, having operated and plotted underneath Yoda's nose, as well as ascending to such a powerful position in the Republic. The ability to do that takes a lot of power and attunement to the Force, which is one of the reasons Dooku did fear him. Secondly, Dooku never battled Sidious before. Not even when they met. So, he doesn't know how powerful Sidious is. Thirdly, Dooku very arrogantly assumed he was Yoda's equal. He wasn't. And, Sidious may be a manipulative coward, but he's powerful and willing to kill off his apprentices. Dooku knew that. Which is why he feared Sidious. Which is why any intelligent person 'would'.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Because the CIS intention was to lose. The CIS had the biggest commerce organisations of the Galaxy which alone had tons of influence on the Republic. If they really wanted to win that war they could have done that.Just an example:
Kuat Drive Yards or the Kuat Incoporation which built large amounts of the ships, weapons and so on for the clone army belonged to the Techno Union and the Techno Union was part of the CIS. Funny, isn't it ?The CIS directly delivered the technology the Republic used to beat them. 😉
Lmao. The CIS's intentions weren't to lose, Nai. The Clone Wars were full of both Republic and Separatist victories. The CIS did manage to secure a great blow when they invaded Coruscant and captured the Chancellor. But by the time of ROTS, the Republic had secured the Core Worlds and forced the CIS to the Outer Rim.
By the time of ROTS, the Separatists 'were' losing. And not because of their own intentions.
Originally posted by Escape81
Indeed. But Dooku was in awe of Sidious, having operated and plotted underneath Yoda's nose, as well as ascending to such a powerful position in the Republic. The ability to do that takes a lot of power and attunement to the Force, which is one of the reasons Dooku did fear him. Secondly, Dooku never battled Sidious before. Not even when they met. So, he doesn't know how powerful Sidious is. Thirdly, Dooku very arrogantly assumed he was Yoda's equal. He wasn't. And, Sidious may be a manipulative coward, but he's powerful and willing to kill off his apprentices. Dooku knew that. Which is why he feared Sidious. Which is why any intelligent person 'would'.
Yeah, he feared Sidious may kill him, but guess what? Sidious feared his death and his "Loss of power". Sidious underestimated Yoda as well. You're forgetting that Sidious never battled Dooku. It works both ways. Sidious doesn't know how powerful Dooku is either, or how well he can handle a Lightsaber.
Originally posted by Escape81
Lmao. The CIS's intentions weren't to lose, Nai. The Clone Wars were full of both Republic and Separatist victories. The CIS did manage to secure a great blow when they invaded Coruscant and captured the Chancellor. But by the time of ROTS, the Republic had secured the Core Worlds and forced the CIS to the Outer Rim.By the time of ROTS, the Separatists 'were' losing. And not because of their own intentions.
Rofl! The CIS was trying to pull back the army afterDooku's death and Grievous' because they had lost several stand points due to the fact ties had been cut off after the Death of the Commander and the Leader. The rest of the organization wanted Peace, which is what What's-his-face-Neimodian said before he died "But Sidious promised us Peace!"
They wanted to stop fighting, and Sidious just eliminated them. The CIS *WAS* winning.
Originally posted by Sorgo
That would mean he feared Dooku. He knew he was powerful enough to strip him of his power, so he ALSO feared his power.
No, Sorgo.
Palpatine fears Dooku's 'intent'. For example. Vader intended to convert Luke to the Dark Side so that they could both overthrow the Emperor, knowing neither of them could do it on their own. Vader is, by Lucas's own words, much weaker than Sidious, but Sidious still feared Vader's intent.
This could very well be the same case. In fact, I could argue Dooku needed Anakin to try and remove Palpatine, like Vader needed Luke.
Originally posted by Sorgo
Rofl! The CIS was trying to pull back the army afterDooku's death and Grievous' because they had lost several stand points due to the fact ties had been cut off after the Death of the Commander and the Leader. The rest of the organization wanted Peace, which is what What's-his-face-Neimodian said before he died "But Sidious promised us Peace!"They wanted to stop fighting, and Sidious just eliminated them. The CIS *WAS* winning.
Gunray said that when Vader confronted him on Mustafar. Sidious had contacted them via hologram shortly before Vader's arrival, and told them that the war was over, remember? Only 'THEN' did the CIS intend peace. Nice try.
a) Dooku legitimately feared Sidious. Dark Rendezvous doesn't conflict with the movies, so it is considered canon. Even in the novelization, Dooku speaks of Sidious with awe and respect. And he does so in LOE, but with a large tinge of fear. Sidious feared betrayal and removal from power. Dooku was ambitious. Yet at the same time, this does not make Sidious fear Dooku's power. Because Vader (who is weaker than Sidious) also attempted to betray his master. Sidious knew, and feared this, but he did not fear Vader. Simply Vader's intent. This is very likely the same case. Especially how Dooku tried to get Anakin to tap into the Dark Side. I could argue that Dooku 'needed' Anakin to help him slay Palpatine, just as Vader needed Luke.
b) The Confederacy was losing by the time of ROTS. In LOE, they had been forced from the Core Worlds into the Outer Rim. This is a sign that they lost in the Core Worlds, and had to proceede into territory where the Republic didn't effectively control. In ROTS, they captured Palpatine, but were conflicted by Republic forces. Grievous's flagship was under attack, and could not flee. That battle resulted in:
1. Palpatine being rescued
2. Count Dooku's death
3. Grievous's retreat
The CIS lost that time. So they were forced to flee to Utapau and Mustufar. Even the Confederacy leaders were paranoid of defeat. But I will say Gunray is paranoid about everything. Anyways... The CIS began to back off when Sidious messaged the Separatists and told them Vader would take over from here. Too bad that resulted in their deaths...
Anyways. CIS lost. And not by their own grand design. Even thinking that is just odd and unfounded.
c) I don't believe Nai is correct on the Kuat Drive Yards and Techno Union. I also would like to see ironclad proof of this. It mentions nothing about it on the site, under the Techno Union's entry.