Originally posted by Ultimate-Venom
Hulk...storm cant hurt him...but still storm might win..wallbash im stumped
Why cant Storm hurt him? Wolverine can and has. Class 50 Sabra can and has. She can certainly hurt him. Whats in debate here is if by the circumstances of this thread she can take him out.
Originally posted by leonidas
what's the issue #? i wasn't gonna check it out, but this thread has gone so long i'm sorta interested.
Ohhhh so you said that stuff without having read the issue. You made me feel like a liar Leo!!! Im hurt. 😛
Theres scans of some of the battle in this thread. I cant remember the exact issue myself. I'll see if i can find the energy to dig it up and add to Khells scans. 😉
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The second assault was jointly with Cable so they KOed him instead. However Storm on her own via a lightning bolt to the head managed to disrupt his psyche enough to allow the emergence of an another one of Banners alter egos.
Are you sure this didn't happen while he was still under Apocalypse's influence?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why cant Storm hurt him? Wolverine can and has. Class 50 Sabra can and has. She can certainly hurt him. Whats in debate here is if by the circumstances of this thread she can take him out.
You should really be specific about which incarnation of Hulk you're referring to. People just say 'Hulk' like there's only one.
Wolverine has been unable to penetrate Savage Hulk's skin. I don't recall a fight with Sabra, so I can't comment. Anyway, Savage Hulk takes lightning attacks from Mjolnir, which is skyfather level. Savage Hulk has even taken shots from Celestials. The very same attacks reduced Dr. Strange and Namor to skeletons with a single shot. Savage Hulk was hit by several of them, and remained unharmed. Getting downed by Storm's lightning is a big inconsistency, and a bad showing. But really, it's not enough to sway the fight in Storm's favor.
it was david's sh!tty prof hulk that was getting pounded by sabra. (david did more to hurt hulk's rep than any writer EVER!)
as far as storm . . .
the issue is -- to say the least -- unclear. in the cable issue, cable is 'mentally guiding her power while she unleashes a lightning bolt to his brain, shorting out the synapses.'
after the lightning, cable hits with his 'telepathic bullet'. somehow, in (grey) hulk's mind, that triggered a change to savage hulk. it wasn't the lightning, gs -- it was cable bullet that triggered the change. so if anyone has the remote, it would be cable. BUT, he wasn't able to pull the stunt by himself.
in the second part (hulk 444 -- does medina's art suck or what??) the big 'incident' happens. BEFORE that happened though, hulk was attacked by storm via a tornado while she simultaneously 'barraged the hulk with lightning, no holds barred in her fury'. no holds barred because hulk was about to KILL cable.
tornado + lightning did nothing to hulk. he calmly grabbed some debris and damned near killed her, putting her out of the fight for a while.
later, cable and storm work together: 'i think if i can thread a telepathic bolt through the hulk's mind at the same time she delivers a lightning strike to his cranium, we can basically shut down his brain for a second . . .[so he can break free of onslaught's control]'
in the following page it is clearly shown hulk is being struck by BOTH attacks simultaneously. when they are done, they fear they have killed him.
herein lies the problem, and one that is open to interpretation. my opinion:
banner had been trapped by onslaught and was basically inaccessible to hulk. storm and cable had together eliminated hulk's OWN intelligence/drive. so who was left to steer the car? no one. i don't think hulk was actually brain dead -- i don't think there WAS a brain. i also don't think his body was 'dead' in the normal sense of the word, but rather was rendered inert -- ie, like a machine, he was simply turned off. i don't believe hulk would have 'died' had he been left alone, it was more like in a coma imo. after all, banner was still inside, just buried and inaccessible.
storm's lightning jolt broke hulk's body out of it's 'shut down', just as cable's interference broke banner out of his prison inside hulk's mind.
at least that's how i saw it.
as far as the fight -- i don't know much about kick, but i'd say it would have to seriously amp her powers for her to affect hulk. hulk's fall it was every bit as much cabe's doing as it was storm's. neither could do it alone, i don't think -- even together they barely accomplished it.
whew . . .
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
You should really be specific about which incarnation of Hulk you're referring to. People just say 'Hulk' like there's only one.Wolverine has been unable to penetrate Savage Hulk's skin. I don't recall a fight with Sabra, so I can't comment. Anyway, Savage Hulk takes lightning attacks from Mjolnir, which is skyfather level. Savage Hulk has even taken shots from Celestials. The very same attacks reduced Dr. Strange and Namor to skeletons with a single shot. Savage Hulk was hit by several of them, and remained unharmed. Getting downed by Storm's lightning is a big inconsistency, and a bad showing. But really, it's not enough to sway the fight in Storm's favor.
Where did Wolverine try and was unable to?
Mjolnir is not skyfather level. It is enchanted by a skyfather. Thats like saying Juggernaut is skyfather level which he clearly is not. Also Thor has never tried to take Hulk down solely through his weather powers, he always relies on his physical prowess while using mjolnir merely to bludgeon. Hulk taking the odd lightning bolt from Thor doesnt not mean Hulk could shrug off a Kick enhanced Storm relying solely on that form of attack.
Where did the Celestials reduce Strange and Namor to skeletons? Are you sure youre not getting them confused with members of the Order from "The End"?
Why is getting downed by Storm going all out an inconsistency? Storm focused her assault on his brain. Who else has employed electrical attacks in the same manner and not been successful for you to say that?
We really do need clarification on which version of Hulk we're talking about though.
Originally posted by leonidas
in the second part (hulk 444 -- does medina's art suck or what??) the big 'incident' happens. BEFORE that happened though, hulk was attacked by storm via a tornado while she simultaneously 'barraged the hulk with lightning, no holds barred in her fury'. no holds barred because hulk was about to KILL cable.tornado + lightning did nothing to hulk. he calmly grabbed some debris and damned near killed her, putting her out of the fight for a while.
However Hulk was helpless and would have continued to be so for quite a while if it wasnt for the debris which allowed him to escape the hurricane by attacking Storm with it. That couldnt happen in this thread.
Originally posted by leonidas
in the following page it is clearly shown hulk is being struck by BOTH attacks simultaneously. when they are done, they fear they have killed him.herein lies the problem, and one that is open to interpretation. my opinion:
banner had been trapped by onslaught and was basically inaccessible to hulk. storm and cable had together eliminated hulk's OWN intelligence/drive. so who was left to steer the car? no one. i don't think hulk was actually brain dead -- i don't think there WAS a brain. i also don't think his body was 'dead' in the normal sense of the word, but rather was rendered inert -- ie, like a machine, he was simply turned off. i don't believe hulk would have 'died' had he been left alone, it was more like in a coma imo. after all, banner was still inside, just buried and inaccessible.
Without the brain able to regulate bodily functions the body eventually dies without outside intervention. Coma victims are kept alive via machinery. If left alone they die. Hulk was disabled Banner was trapped. A healing factor couldnt change that situation. It could not free Banner to take the reins of his inert body.
Originally posted by leonidas
storm's lightning jolt broke hulk's body out of it's 'shut down', just as cable's interference broke banner out of his prison inside hulk's mind.at least that's how i saw it.
No i agree with you on that part. In my opinion after Storm and Cables assault Hulks psyche was displaced from its position of dominance and his body started shutting down. There was a small window of opportunity for Cable to free Banner to take the reins otherwise the body would have died and he would have passed on as it were.
Originally posted by leonidas
as far as the fight -- i don't know much about kick, but i'd say it would have to seriously amp her powers for her to affect hulk. hulk's fall it was every bit as much cabe's doing as it was storm's. neither could do it alone, i don't think -- even together they barely accomplished it.whew . . .
But you must bear in mind that Cable and Storm were trying to restrain the Hulk whereas Hulk was trying to kill them. Thats what people alwasy seem to forget. Either way the conditions of this thread are far more favourable for Storm. she doesnt tire her powers are amped and she starts off a long distance away from the Hulk. Hulk has no weapons at his disposal no scenery to use. Its just his direct powers versus hers. Depending on what version of Hulk this is i think Storm takes it. She only has to knock him out to cause him to revert to Banner then its game over.
<<However Hulk was helpless and would have continued to be so for quite a while if it wasnt for the debris which allowed him to escape the hurricane by attacking Storm with it. That couldnt happen in this thread.>>
debateable. he could well have hit her with a thunderclap to disperse or counteract the tornado. he knocked her easily from the sky earlier on while she was using hurricane force winds. the main point was she was drilling him over anad again with lightning that was ineffectual.
<<Without the brain able to regulate bodily functions the body eventually dies without outside intervention. Coma victims are kept alive via machinery. If left alone they die. Hulk was disabled Banner was trapped. A healing factor couldnt change that situation. It could not free Banner to take the reins of his inert body.>>
again, debateable, and based on an assumption. hulk's body is actually mass derived from an extra-dimensional source. there is no reason to believe it would behave as a normal human body would. hulk can fight for extremely long durations of time without rest or food or drink -- the limit of this durability has not, to my knowledge, been tested. i will agree that it SEEMS he would have at least remained inert (comatose), howeverm again, cable speculated that the jolt would only affect him for moments. perhaps the hulk's synapses would have begun firing on their own in time. his healing powers ARE remarkable. to say he COULDN'T have healed (to say so definitively) is speculatory. he MAY have remained inert, and he MAY not have. and don't forget -- banner WAS still in there -- just buried. that fact alone MAY have been enough to keep the hulk at least alive, if not functioning.
<<No i agree with you on that part. In my opinion after Storm and Cables assault Hulks psyche was displaced from its position of dominance and his body started shutting down. There was a small window of opportunity for Cable to free Banner to take the reins otherwise the body would have died and he would have passed on as it were. >>
i agree with all of this but for the last statement. again, to say he would have died is only speculation. even cable and storm could have had no real idea, regardless of what they may have thought or feared.
<<But you must bear in mind that Cable and Storm were trying to restrain the Hulk whereas Hulk was trying to kill them. Thats what people alwasy seem to forget. Either way the conditions of this thread are far more favourable for Storm. she doesnt tire her powers are amped and she starts off a long distance away from the Hulk. Hulk has no weapons at his disposal no scenery to use. Its just his direct powers versus hers. Depending on what version of Hulk this is i think Storm takes it. She only has to knock him out to cause him to revert to Banner then its game over.>>
that's fair enough. and it WOULD depend on the version, for sure. i'm not saying storm CAN'T win against savage amped as she is, i'm just not convinced she can do alone what it took her and cable together to achieve. has she used the attack to the brain against others? it seems cable was sort of guiding her attacks as they worked together. has she done something similar on her own?
i still side with hulk (savage) she 6/10 without knowing a bit more about how precise storm can be, and even then, there is the question of how effective her attack alone would be. i'm not convinced but am willing to hear a bit more.
btw, has anyone mentioned her ability to simply create a vaccum and suffocate him? what's the range opf her powers? damn, i just don't know enough about current storm and her control level.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<However Hulk was helpless and would have continued to be so for quite a while if it wasnt for the debris which allowed him to escape the hurricane by attacking Storm with it. That couldnt happen in this thread.>>debateable. he could well have hit her with a thunderclap to disperse or counteract the tornado. he knocked her easily from the sky earlier on while she was using hurricane force winds. the main point was she was drilling him over anad again with lightning that was ineffectual.
We've talked in depth about the effectiveness of a thunder clap against Storm. Given the distance apart they start the match on, the long ranged nature of her powers and the fact that she can control and generate her own thunder claps, such an attack really wouldnt cut it here. As for Hercules stopping wind with a thunder clap that really doesnt mean that Hulk would/could do it. The situations are completely different.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<Without the brain able to regulate bodily functions the body eventually dies without outside intervention. Coma victims are kept alive via machinery. If left alone they die. Hulk was disabled Banner was trapped. A healing factor couldnt change that situation. It could not free Banner to take the reins of his inert body.>>again, debateable, and based on an assumption. hulk's body is actually mass derived from an extra-dimensional source. there is no reason to believe it would behave as a normal human body would. hulk can fight for extremely long durations of time without rest or food or drink -- the limit of this durability has not, to my knowledge, been tested. i will agree that it SEEMS he would have at least remained inert (comatose), howeverm again, cable speculated that the jolt would only affect him for moments. perhaps the hulk's synapses would have begun firing on their own in time. his healing powers ARE remarkable. to say he COULDN'T have healed (to say so definitively) is speculatory. he MAY have remained inert, and he MAY not have. and don't forget -- banner WAS still in there -- just buried. that fact alone MAY have been enough to keep the hulk at least alive, if not functioning.
Fair enough.
Originally posted by leonidas<<But you must bear in mind that Cable and Storm were trying to restrain the Hulk whereas Hulk was trying to kill them. Thats what people alwasy seem to forget. Either way the conditions of this thread are far more favourable for Storm. she doesnt tire her powers are amped and she starts off a long distance away from the Hulk. Hulk has no weapons at his disposal no scenery to use. Its just his direct powers versus hers. Depending on what version of Hulk this is i think Storm takes it. She only has to knock him out to cause him to revert to Banner then its game over.>>
that's fair enough. and it WOULD depend on the version, for sure. i'm not saying storm CAN'T win against savage amped as she is, i'm just not convinced she can do alone what it took her and cable together to achieve. has she used the attack to the brain against others? it seems cable was sort of guiding her attacks as they worked together. has she done something similar on her own?
i still side with hulk (savage) she 6/10 without knowing a bit more about how precise storm can be, and even then, there is the question of how effective her attack alone would be. i'm not convinced but am willing to hear a bit more.
btw, has anyone mentioned her ability to simply create a vaccum and suffocate him? what's the range opf her powers? damn, i just don't know enough about current storm and her control level.
Agreed. The probability of her winning differs from Hulk to hulk. It was a struggle for Storm and Cable because they were trying to restrain him in the face of his brutal assault.
Yeah i mentioned her ability to create a vacuum as a good tactic earlier on. That in conjunction with another assault will mean Hulk wouldnt be able to hold his breath for long and when he runs out of air will not be able to replenish his reserves.
As for range her bio states that it is unkown however she has created and controlled a hyperstorm the size of the Eastern coast of the U.S. Aided by Rachel Grey she was able to create hyperstorms for each of the worlds continents:
Storm on Kick will have a similar range and as per the rules of this thread she doesnt tire.
hmph. that IS more powerful than i thought.
<<We've talked in depth about the effectiveness of a thunder clap against Storm. Given the distance apart they start the match on, the long ranged nature of her powers and the fact that she can control and generate her own thunder claps, such an attack really wouldnt cut it here. As for Hercules stopping wind with a thunder clap that really doesnt mean that Hulk would/could do it. The situations are completely different.>>
hercules?? eer
i mentioned in the cable issue he clapped while she was using HURRICANE force winds. is that where hercules came from? anyway, you're right about the range of the effective of the shockwave. it's why i was curious about the range of her own powers.
given what the scan showed, and given she is amped, i drop my odds to 50/50 savage takes this. again, without better knowledge on her control (particularly of lightning and the precision with which she (on her own)) can strike with it, i can't give her better than even chances.
interesting topic though.
Originally posted by leonidas
hmph. that IS more powerful than i thought.<<We've talked in depth about the effectiveness of a thunder clap against Storm. Given the distance apart they start the match on, the long ranged nature of her powers and the fact that she can control and generate her own thunder claps, such an attack really wouldnt cut it here. As for Hercules stopping wind with a thunder clap that really doesnt mean that Hulk would/could do it. The situations are completely different.>>
hercules?? eer
Someone posted a scan of some absurd incident where Hercules stopped some wind with a thunder clap. 😕
I thought you were referring to that.
Originally posted by leonidas
i mentioned in the cable issue he clapped while she was using HURRICANE force winds. is that where hercules came from? anyway, you're right about the range of the effective of the shockwave. it's why i was curious about the range of her own powers.
Ok cool. Well i hope my last post helped.
Originally posted by leonidas
given what the scan showed, and given she is amped, i drop my odds to 50/50 savage takes this. again, without better knowledge on her control (particularly of lightning and the precision with which she (on her own)) can strike with it, i can't give her better than even chances.interesting topic though.
Why would she need precision control of lightning for you to change your odds on the fight? What do you think that will enable her to do in this battle?
As aforementioned i think she can suffocate him in a vacuum whilst attacking him with lightning to shorten the amount of time he can hold his breath.
yah, thevaccum is a good idea. the range of its effects were what caused me to doubt it. can she do it and be out of range of his leap or clap?
the precision comes in if she wants to tag him in the brain with a powerful lightning blast. it seemed cable guided her precision in the battle they had. if she has that level of mastery on her own, she might be able to stun him with a bolt to the brain then try the vacuum trick. i'm still a bit torn. i think lightning and vacuum are her only real options, and they would depend on the range of her power and the control/precision.
if she has enough range and control, i can see her taking the majority -- amped as she is.
Originally posted by leonidas
yah, thevaccum is a good idea. the range of its effects were what caused me to doubt it. can she do it and be out of range of his leap or clap?
Well considering the hyperstorm incident her range shouldnt be in doubt. That is after all why she is given a 5 on marvels energy projection system. Storm can see things in terms of patterns of energy patterns. Shes not limited to "normal" vision. Plus she can sense objects and movement via air currents which she has displayed on many occassions. So she could create the vacuum effect whilst placing herself out of Hulks reach or at a distance whereby she could easily avoid his attacks.
Originally posted by leonidas
the precision comes in if she wants to tag him in the brain with a powerful lightning blast. it seemed cable guided her precision in the battle they had. if she has that level of mastery on her own, she might be able to stun him with a bolt to the brain then try the vacuum trick. i'm still a bit torn. i think lightning and vacuum are her only real options, and they would depend on the range of her power and the control/precision.
How precise do you need to be to blast someones brain? lol. I thought it was more Cable guiding her timing to coincide with his own assault. She was only blasting him in the head. Thats all that was revealed on panel.
Originally posted by leonidas
if she has enough range and control, i can see her taking the majority -- amped as she is.
Well she certainly has the range. As for her control:
"Her control over the atmosphere is such that she could create certain of her effects over a specific area whilst shielding certain smaller areas within the larger area from them. For example she could create a rainstorm around herself but prevent the rain from touching her. "
Storm has also mentally guided wind to carry a bomb from the Morlocks tunnels up to the surface and beyond the city to explode in the sky. So yeah her control is top notch as well. 😉
Originally posted by leonidasSince the nature of a vacuum is to be the absence of any molecules and/or atoms, a thunderclap would hardly be possible, wouldn't it? Not that this would eliminate his leaping.
yah, thevaccum is a good idea. the range of its effects were what caused me to doubt it. can she do it and be out of range of his leap or clap?
<<Since the nature of a vacuum is to be the absence of any molecules and/or atoms, a thunderclap would hardly be possible, wouldn't it? Not that this would eliminate his leaping.>>
that's why is said leaping . . . 😉
<<How precise do you need to be to blast someones brain? lol. I thought it was more Cable guiding her timing to coincide with his own assault.>>
it actually says he guided her attack. why? not sure, exactly. in any event, i'll concede the point. as i said, i didn't know much about current storm or kick. assuming everything i've been told is accurate, i'll go with storm. stunned (not beaten) by lightning, followed by a vacuum should about do it, i think.
