Originally posted by siriuswriter
I think that you will find a number of mainstream christian denominations "cults" if you continue to follow with this belief.
And then one day, one cruel day, he will have an epithany and understand that by his standards he to is in a cult.
UNIVERSALIST: "Listen here Mormon, if you continue to believe that you can become a god, that Satan and Jesus are literal brothers, that God has a body of flesh and bones and has a goddess wife, and that you can become a god of your own world, you know what is going to happen to you? You're going to heaven! So there!"MORMON: "Sounds good to me."
Heheheh. That actually made me laugh, if only because it is so very silly.
Evil universalist, telling people that they can believe what they want.
A small suggestion for Marchello -
Make your own thread. Most of your rants lately have nothing to do with Mormons, and none of the Mormons here are really taking the time to read your posts. So make your own thread. You could label it "There is only one truth" or some such. That way this thread can get back on track and people who want to listen to you can still do so.
Joseph Smith—History 1:17 [JS—H 1:17]: “I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description. … One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!”
The GodheadThe Church's first article of faith states, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." These three beings make up the Godhead. They preside over this world and all other creations of our Father in Heaven.
The true doctrine of the Godhead was lost in the apostasy that followed the Savior's mortal ministry and the deaths of His Apostles. This doctrine began to be restored when 14-year-old Joseph Smith received his First Vision (see Joseph Smith—History 1:17). From the Prophet's account of the First Vision and from his other teachings, we know that the members of the Godhead are three separate beings. The Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bones, and the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit (see D&C 130:22).
Although the members of the Godhead are distinct beings with distinct roles, they are one in purpose and doctrine. They are perfectly united in bringing to pass Heavenly Father's divine plan of salvation.
Scripture References
Matthew 3:13–17; John 14:6–10; 17:6–23; Acts 7:55–56; 2 Nephi 31:18; Mormon 7:5–7; D&C 76:20–24
President Gordon B. Hinckley, Prophet, Seer and Revelator: “I believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. I was baptized in the name of these three. I was married in the name of these three. I have no question concerning their reality and their individuality. … Miracle of miracles and wonder of wonders, they are interested in us, and we are the substance of their great concern. They are available to each of us. We approach the Father through the Son. He is our intercessor at the throne of God. How marvelous it is that we may so speak to the Father in the name of the Son. I bear witness of these great, transcendent truths. And I do so by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost” (“The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,” Liahona, Mar. 1998, 8–9; Ensign, Mar. 1998, 7).
Elder L. Tom Perry of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: “[Joseph Smith’s] experience clarified for mankind the existence of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Thus to the world came the vision that three personages comprise this great presiding council of the universe and have revealed themselves to mankind as three separate beings, physically distinct from each other. … The Holy Ghost … is a personage of spirit. The Holy Ghost is a witness of the Father and of the Son declaring to man their attributes, bearing record of the other personages of the Godhead” (“The Articles of Faith,” Ensign, May 1998, 23–24).
Gordon B. Hinckley, Prophet, Seer and Revelator, “The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,” Ensign, Mar. 1998, 2[list=1][*]“We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost” (A of F 1:1).[*]God, the Eternal Father, is the Father of the spirits of all mankind, the great Creator, the Ruler of the Universe. In His image man was created. He is personal and real and has “a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22).[*]The Lord Jesus Christ is the Firstborn of the Father and the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh; through His atoning sacrifice He expiated the sins of mankind; through His resurrection He has opened the doors for our resurrection.[*]The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit who stands as the third member of the Godhead, the Comforter promised by the Savior; He is the Testifier of Truth.[*]The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all distinct beings, but they are one in purpose and effort. We are the substance of their great concern.[/list]
More on the nature of God and the Godhead:
Dallin H. Oaks, of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “Apostasy and Restoration,” Ensign, May 1995, 84When Joseph Smith was asked to explain the major tenets of our faith, he wrote what we now call the Articles of Faith. The first article states, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” The Prophet later declared that “the simple and first principles of the gospel” include knowing “for a certainty the character of God” (“Conference Minutes,” Times and Seasons, 15 Aug. 1844, p. 614). We must begin with the truth about God and our relationship to him. Everything else follows from that.
In common with the rest of Christianity, we believe in a Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. However, we testify that these three members of the Godhead are three separate and distinct beings. We also testify that God the Father is not just a spirit but is a glorified person with a tangible body, as is his resurrected Son, Jesus Christ.
When first communicated to mankind by prophets, the teachings we now have in the Bible were “plain and pure, and most precious and easy” to understand (1 Ne. 14:23). Even in the transmitted and translated version we have today, the Bible language confirms that God the Father and his resurrected Son, Jesus Christ, are tangible, separate beings. To cite only two of many such teachings, the Bible declares that man was created in the image of God, and it describes three separate members of the Godhead manifested at the baptism of Jesus (see Gen. 1:27; Matt. 3:13–17).
In contrast, many Christians reject the idea of a tangible, personal God and a Godhead of three separate beings. They believe that God is a spirit and that the Godhead is only one God. In our view, these concepts are evidence of the falling away we call the Great Apostasy.
We maintain that the concepts identified by such nonscriptural terms as “the incomprehensible mystery of God” and “the mystery of the Holy Trinity” are attributable to the ideas of Greek philosophy. These philosophical concepts transformed Christianity in the first few centuries following the deaths of the Apostles. For example, philosophers then maintained that physical matter was evil and that God was a spirit without feelings or passions. Persons of this persuasion, including learned men who became influential converts to Christianity, had a hard time accepting the simple teachings of early Christianity: an Only Begotten Son who said he was in the express image of his Father in Heaven and who taught his followers to be one as he and his Father were one, and a Messiah who died on a cross and later appeared to his followers as a resurrected being with flesh and bones.
The collision between the speculative world of Greek philosophy and the simple, literal faith and practice of the earliest Christians produced sharp contentions that threatened to widen political divisions in the fragmenting Roman empire. This led Emperor Constantine to convene the first churchwide council in A.D. 325. The action of this council of Nicaea remains the most important single event after the death of the Apostles in formulating the modern Christian concept of deity. The Nicene Creed erased the idea of the separate being of Father and Son by defining God the Son as being of “one substance with the Father.”
Other councils followed, and from their decisions and the writings of churchmen and philosophers there came a synthesis of Greek philosophy and Christian doctrine in which the orthodox Christians of that day lost the fulness of truth about the nature of God and the Godhead. The consequences persist in the various creeds of Christianity, which declare a Godhead of only one being and which describe that single being or God as “incomprehensible” and “without body, parts, or passions.” One of the distinguishing features of the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is its rejection of all of these postbiblical creeds (see Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christians? Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1991; Encyclopedia of Mormonism, ed. Daniel H. Ludlow, 4 vols., New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., 1992, s.v. “Apostasy,” “doctrine,” “God the Father,” and “Godhead”).
In the process of what we call the Apostasy, the tangible, personal God described in the Old and New Testaments was replaced by the abstract, incomprehensible deity defined by compromise with the speculative principles of Greek philosophy. The received language of the Bible remained, but the so-called “hidden meanings” of scriptural words were now explained in the vocabulary of a philosophy alien to their origins. In the language of that philosophy, God the Father ceased to be a Father in any but an allegorical sense. He ceased to exist as a comprehensible and compassionate being. And the separate identity of his Only Begotten Son was swallowed up in a philosophical abstraction that attempted to define a common substance and an incomprehensible relationship.
These descriptions of a religious philosophy are surely undiplomatic, but I hasten to add that Latter-day Saints do not apply such criticism to the men and women who profess these beliefs. We believe that most religious leaders and followers are sincere believers who love God and understand and serve him to the best of their abilities. We are indebted to the men and women who kept the light of faith and learning alive through the centuries to the present day. We have only to contrast the lesser light that exists among peoples unfamiliar with the names of God and Jesus Christ to realize the great contribution made by Christian teachers through the ages. We honor them as servants of God.
Then came the First Vision. An unschooled boy, seeking knowledge from the ultimate source, saw two personages of indescribable brightness and glory and heard one of them say, while pointing to the other, “This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” (JS—H 1:17.) The divine teaching in that vision began the restoration of the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. God the Son told the boy prophet that all the “creeds” of the churches of that day “were an abomination in his sight” (JS—H 1:19). We affirm that this divine declaration was a condemnation of the creeds, not of the faithful seekers who believed in them. Joseph Smith’s first vision showed that the prevailing concepts of the nature of God and the Godhead were untrue and could not lead their adherents to the destiny God desired for them.
After a subsequent outpouring of modern scripture and revelation, this modern prophet declared, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit” (D&C 130:22).
This belief does not mean that we claim sufficient spiritual maturity to comprehend God. Nor do we equate our imperfect mortal bodies to his immortal, glorified being. But we can comprehend the fundamentals he has revealed about himself and the other members of the Godhead. And that knowledge is essential to our understanding of the purpose of mortal life and of our eternal destiny as resurrected beings after mortal life.
Originally posted by siriuswriter
...I am broad minded because I KNOW tha tthe God I believe in would be so petty as to say you, but not you because you didn't happen to hear about it at the right time...
***So then, it is your belief that God would NOT be "so petty" to damn a person to Hell for whatever reason? God, by His very NATURE of being God, has the RIGHT to DO WHATEVER HE WANTS. Who are YOU to question God? "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the THING formed say to Him that FORMED it, WHY hast thou made me thus? Hath not the POTTER power OVER the CLAY, of the SAME lump to make one vessel unto HONOUR, and ANOTHER unto DISHONOUR? What if God, willing to shew His WRATH, and to make His POWER known, endureth with much LONGSUFFERING the VESSELS of WRATH fitted to DESTRUCTION: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the VESSELS of MERCY, which He had AFORE prepared unto GLORY" [Romans 9:20-23].
BOTTOM-LINE: God will do whatever He wants according to the SOVEREIGNTY of His OWN WILL...and He doesn't care one wit what His CREATION thinks or objects to.
Marchello
Originally posted by siriuswriter
1. Jesus was the fully divine and fully human son of God and the Virgin Mary.2. He rose from the grave both phsyically and spiritually.
3. When Jesus went to hell for those three days, he saved everyone. Past, present and future. No questions asked. Done deal. Not "I have done this amazing feat because I love you, BUT you must jump through hoops a, b, and c before I let you take the prize.
***The most fundamental question concerning the Person of Christ is...is Jesus Christ really GOD? NOT merely, is He DIVINE...but. is He ACTUALLY God? When I was a kid, to say you believed in the DIVINITY of Christ meant that you believed in the REAL DEITY of Christ...that you believed that Jesus was actually a DIVINE Person...that He was GOD. TODAY when they talk about the DIVINITY of Christ, they do NOT mean at all what Christians meant by it when I was a kid. So my question for you is: Do you believe that Jesus Christ was GOD INCARNATE...FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN?
We agree that Jesus arose from the dead BODILY.
I do NOT agree that [Item #3], "you must jump through hoops a, b, and c before I let you take a prize." Salvation is a GIFT of God and we CANNOT "earn" it by our GOOD WORKS [Ephesians 2:8-9]. God gives it to us FREE when we place our FAITH [i.e., trust] in the COMPLETED work of the Lord Jesus Christ [on our behalf] as the SATISFACTION [i.e., payment] for our sins [Romans 6:23]. He died as our SUBSTITUTE and took the punishment for our sins upon Himself [even though He NEVER sinned] and BECAME our SACRIFICE to SATISFY the RIGHTEOUSNESS required by God [1John 2:2].
BOTTOM-LINE: Your beliefs are NOT Christian beliefs...for if you could "earn" your salvation by "jumping through hoops"...you WOULDN'T need Christ to die for your SINS [for you could expiate them yourself]. Since you DON'T need Christ to DIE for your sins--->your sins REMAIN...and you are still "DEAD IN YOUR SINS."
Marchello
Originally posted by siriuswriter
I am not blind, nor am I deaf. I read the bible, and I read books by people who have studied the bible. I take my faith and religion seriously, for me, not to woudl be a grave mistake.Other poeple have different ways of dealing with it, and I do not call them wrong. If people can be so strong in their faith that all they need to do is listen to God, then more power to them! If all they need to do is just be swept up in all that is life, then more power to them!
I am the last person to say that there is only one way to worship, only one way to read the bible, only one way, right way, to see God.
I will continue to fight against that idea until the day that I die.
You tell him, girl!!!!!!
Originally posted by MarchelloSorry, Mormons will not worship a being with dissociative identity disorder no matter how divine the being is.
***The most fundamental question concerning the Person of Christ is...is Jesus Christ really GOD? NOT merely, is He DIVINE...but. is He ACTUALLY God? When I was a kid, to say you believed in the DIVINITY of Christ meant that you believed in the REAL DEITY of Christ...that you believed that Jesus was actually a DIVINE Person...that He was GOD. TODAY when they talk about the DIVINITY of Christ, they do NOT mean at all what Christians meant by it when I was a kid. So my question for you is: Do you believe that Jesus Christ was GOD INCARNATE...FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN?We agree that Jesus arose from the dead BODILY.
I do NOT agree that [Item #3], "you must jump through hoops a, b, and c before I let you take a prize." Salvation is a GIFT of God and we CANNOT "earn" it by our GOOD WORKS [Ephesians 2:8-9]. God gives it to us FREE when we place our FAITH [i.e., trust] in the COMPLETED work of the Lord Jesus Christ [on our behalf] as the SATISFACTION [i.e., payment] for our sins [Romans 6:23]. He died as our SUBSTITUTE and took the punishment for our sins upon Himself [even though He NEVER sinned] and BECAME our SACRIFICE to SATISFY the RIGHTEOUSNESS required by God [1John 2:2].
BOTTOM-LINE: Your beliefs are NOT Christian beliefs...for if you could "earn" your salvation by "jumping through hoops"...you WOULDN'T need Christ to die for your SINS [for you could expiate them yourself]. Since you DON'T need Christ to DIE for your sins--->your sins REMAIN...and you are still "DEAD IN YOUR SINS."
Marchello
Matthew 26:42Christ is not God the Father, unless of course God is insane.
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.Matthew 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Mark 1:10-11
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Matt. 27: 46
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 15: 34
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
John H. Vandenberg, “Touchstone of Truth,” Ensign, May 1974, 11President Joseph Fielding Smith summed up well what had happened as he said: “It should be remembered that the entire Christian world in 1820 had lost the true doctrine concerning God. The simple truth which was understood so clearly by the apostles and saints of old had been lost in the mysteries of an apostate world. All the ancient prophets, and the apostles of Jesus Christ had a clear understanding that the Father and the Son were separate personages, as our scriptures so clearly teach. Through apostasy this knowledge was lost, and in the year 325 a.d., a strange doctrine was introduced and soon spread throughout the Christian world. This doctrine confounded the persons of the Godhead, and distorted the true doctrine of God.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 3, p. 117.)
There is no question that Jesus taught the very nature of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost—three personages of form and substance, individual and distinct. He taught that the true knowledge of the Godhead was essential to eternal life. He included in a prayer to his Father in heaven: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3.) Other references in the scriptures substantiate the individuality of the Holy Ghost. (See Matt. 3:15.)
Yet in the light of this truth there was a “strange doctrine” introduced of man-made creeds. Says one: “There is but one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, the supreme, incorporeal, uncreated being, who exists of himself and is infinite in all his attributes. …” Says another: “There is one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness.” Yet another says: “God is as he reveals himself. He is creative reality … He is expressive act … He is responsive power … He is one God experienced in a trinitarian fashion.” (Alvin R. Dyer, The Meaning of Truth, Deseret Book Co., 1961, p. 50.)
Regret, I'm sorry I've taken this thread WAY off topic. I'll shut up now. Marchello, I wish you would do the same. This thread is for Mormons and their beliefs, and those who wish to learn more about it. I'm not quite sure how it morphed into this, but I imagine it had something to do with Marchello saying, *CAPSLOCK* "YOU"RE WRONG" *scripture* and the Mormon population defending themselves.
Regret, thank you for your intensive research on this Mormon writings.
As I said, I will cease to go off-topic.
Originally posted by siriuswriterI wasn't offended, I merely decided to post direct quotations on the Mormon view of the topic at hand. Given Marchello's ongoing diatribe, I thought it appropriate to insert actual statements from leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/Mormon) to rebut his statements and clarify our position somewhat to those that may think Marchello knows anything about our beliefs other than the information, and misinformation, he has gleaned from various detractor's websites.
Regret, I'm sorry I've taken this thread WAY off topic. I'll shut up now. Marchello, I wish you would do the same. This thread is for Mormons and their beliefs, and those who wish to learn more about it. I'm not quite sure how it morphed into this, but I imagine it had something to do with Marchello saying, *CAPSLOCK* "YOU"RE WRONG" *scripture* and the Mormon population defending themselves.Regret, thank you for your intensive research on this Mormon writings.
As I said, I will cease to go off-topic.
This is a decent article as well, with a lot of facts concerning the evolution of Trinitarian Doctrine
William O. Nelson, “Is the LDS View of God Consistent with the Bible?,” Ensign, Jul 1987, 56To be continued...
Is the LDS View of God Consistent with the Bible?Latter-day Saints are sometimes accused of having an antibiblical theology because they believe that God is a glorified being of flesh and bones—not just a spirit essence. Some who write anti-Mormon pamphlets insist that the LDS concept of Deity is contrary to what is recognized as traditional Christian doctrine. In this they are quite correct. The traditional view about the Trinity is well over a thousand years old, and time has a way of hallowing ideas, whether or not they are true.
One of the most demonstrable truths from the Bible is the physical, bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. When Jesus came forth from the tomb, he showed himself to his Apostles. Even they thought him to be a spirit, but he said: “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”
Then he showed them his hands and feet, and when they were still skeptical, he asked for meat and honeycomb and ate before them. (Luke 24:36–43.) Then they saw he was no apparition.
Thomas was not present at the first appearance to the Twelve, so he remained skeptical. He told the others: “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.” (John 20:24–25.)
One week later, Jesus again appeared to the disciples. This time, Thomas was among them. The Lord greeted them, then spoke to Thomas: “Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.”
Thomas could only exclaim, “My Lord and my God.” (John 20:26–28.) That day he became a special witness of the Lord’s literal resurrection.
After Jesus was resurrected, more than five hundred also saw him and testified of his physical resurrection. (1 Cor. 15:5–8.) The Apostles, too, were witnesses of his ascension into heaven when two angels told them that Jesus would return in like manner as he had ascended. (Acts 1:9–11.)
We also know that at his second coming, Christ will appear with a physical body. John testified that “every eye shall see him.” (Rev. 1:7.) Zechariah prophesied that “his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives” (Zech. 14:4; italics added), and the beleaguered Israelites “shall look upon [him] whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him.” (Zech. 12:10.) And then “one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.” (Zech. 13:6; italics added.)
With such an abundance of biblical testimony from the ancient Apostles and prophets, how did traditional Christianity come to the idea that somehow Jesus’ bodily identity was dissolved into spirit essence? How did the Christian sects come to accept the idea that though three personages comprise the Godhead, they are one immaterial spirit? Certainly the ideas are not apostolic in origin.
The early Apostles took the gospel into a Greco-Roman world that espoused Neoplatonism—a philosophy derived from Plato’s teachings on idealism. One idea that came down from Plato was that matter is essentially evil. (James L. Barker, Apostasy from the Divine Church, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1960, pp. 229–35.)
As long as Apostles led the Church, they opposed the philosophies of the day. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians is an example of this. Apparently, some who held to the belief that matter was evil were baptized but had difficulty accepting the physical resurrection of Jesus. They reasoned that since Jesus was perfectly good, he could not have a material body. In his letter, Paul addressed the Greek belief in the body’s corruptibility by bearing testimony that a resurrected body, like Christ’s, is incorruptible. (1 Cor. 15:3–8, 12–20, 35–42.)
Likewise the Apostle John asserted in his gospel and epistles that Jesus was a divine being of flesh in mortality to counteract the heresy that he was not or could not have been flesh because matter was evil. (John 1:14; 1 Jn. 1:1–3; 1 Jn. 4:3.)
The dilemma of the church after the first century was how to sustain a unified church without a body of general authorities. By the early second century, the church had gone through three major persecutions by the Roman emperors Nero (a.d. 54–68), Domitian (a.d. 81–96), and Trajan (a.d. 98–117), and apostasy and heresy were rampant. The Apostles were gone—all martyred except for John—and church leaders who had known the Apostles but did not have their apostolic keys, like Papias, Clement of Rome, and Polycarp, were dead.
The defenders of the church in the late second and third century were Christian apologists and scholars, many of whom were trained in Greek philosophy and in rhetoric and logic.
They brought the classical culture of Greece into the church for two reasons: first, to rhetorically and logically “prove” the Christian gospel to a world steeped in Greek culture; second, to make Christianity intellectually respectable. Their efforts were an understandable human reaction to counteract the persecution that the church had suffered for two centuries. But it made the church compatible with the very culture the church had once disdained.
The synthesis of Greek philosophy and the Christian gospel is well documented. H. I. Marrou describes how Origen and others caused the church to embrace Hellenistic culture and ideas. (A History of Education in Antiquity, tr. George Lamb, New York: Mentor Book, 1956, pp. 424–29.) Edwin Hatch, in his definitive work on the subject, wrote that the early Christians’ study of Greek philosophy created a certain “habit of mind”:
“When Christianity came into contact with the society in which that habit of mind existed, it modified, it reformed, it elevated, the ideas which it contained and the motives which stimulated it to action; but in its turn it was itself profoundly modified by the habit of mind of those who accepted it. It was impossible for Greeks, … with an education which penetrated their whole nature, to receive or to retain Christianity in its primitive simplicity.” (The Influence of Greek Ideas on Christianity, New York: Harper & Row, 1957, p. 49.)
As the church entered the third century, many ridiculed Christianity because they regarded it as polytheistic—that is, it had a theology of three Gods: the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. By this time the more sophisticated had rejected polytheistic pagan deities and had become monotheistic, accepting but one God. So the issue for the church was how to make Christian theology accord with respectable opinion.
Tertullian, a lawyer, offered this solution: The true God was composed of immaterial spiritual substance, and though the three personages that comprised the Godhead were distinct, this was only a material manifestation of an invisible God. As for how three persons could be one, it was explained that the persons were legally conceived entities, “just as a corporation is composed of various people though it is not the people.” (T. Edgar Lyon, Apostasy to Restoration, Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1960, p. 113.)
Fusing the ideas of church theologians, such as Irenaeus, Origeu, Tertullian, and Athanasius, the Trinitarian formula of three spirits in one was finally accepted as official doctrine by the council of Nicea in a.d. 325. (Lyon, pp. 144–53; Barker, pp. 249–71.)
The key issue through these early centuries was whether Christians would accept a God who was corporeal and material, or one who was pure spirit. Here Greek philosophy prevailed, with its antipathy to materialism, opposition to polytheism, and revulsion to the idea that God had a body.
The unsurpassed intellectual in Christian history was Augustine. He was the one who thoroughly fused the theology of the New Testament with Platonism. In examining Christian doctrine, Augustine confessed to a strong preconception—a repugnance to the idea that God had a body. (The Confessions, V, x:19–20; VII, 1:1. In Great Books of the Western World, vol. 18, Chicago: Encyclopedia Britannica, 1952, pp. 32, 43.) He acknowledged that he had labored on the thesis of the Trinity for fifteen years without “ever reaching a satisfactory conclusion.” (Hugh Nibley, The World and the Prophets, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1954, p. 86.)
Continued...
Finally he rationalized that if one accepts the Platonic idea that spirit essence is the purest manifestation of reality and that matter is the most corrupt, God must therefore be an immaterial being. He was then able to accept the doctrine of the Trinity. (Confessions, IV, xvi:29, 31; V, x:19–20; VI, iii:4–iv:5; The City of God, VIII, ch. 5–6. In Great Books, vol. 18, pp. 26, 32, 36, 267–69.) As Plato had done before him, Augustine decided that since God is the ultimate good, he cannot be associated with anything material.Augustine’s personal theology became that of the Roman Empire and remains an influence in historic Christianity to this day. Such is the basis for traditional Christianity’s teaching on the Trinity—a belief described by modern clerics as a mystery.
In view of biblical teachings on the nature of God and the historic development of the concept of the Trinity, we might ask, Which view is more biblically defensible?
As a child reared in a Protestant home and educated in a parochial grammar school, I vividly recall many occasions when teachers would vainly attempt to explain the mystery of the Trinity. We were told that there were three persons, but not three Gods. The three persons were one spiritual substance, so there could not be three separate beings.
One explanation likened the Trinity to water, steam, and ice, which are different formations of the same element. Another likened the Trinity to writing a book. The author starts with an idea, then the idea becomes incarnate when the writer converts the idea to words. Then when others read the words of the book, it has an effect on the reader. The Idea is the Father, the Word is the Son, and the Effect is the Holy Ghost.
It was hard to fathom a Deity of this nature, let alone love him. But even more significant, the great teaching of Paul that we are God’s literal offspring (Acts 17:28–29) is not even taught in traditional Christian theology. Unfortunately, because of this misunderstanding of God’s true nature, millions of our Heavenly Father’s children have failed to understand their true identity.
In contrast to the preponderance of scriptural support for the physical body of the Lord, there is meager evidence in the Bible to support belief in a God who is a spirit essence. The most frequently cited passage is a conversation between Jesus and a Samaritan woman. The Samaritans had a corrupted form of Jewish and heathen worship. The Savior said to the woman:
“Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship. …
“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:22–24; italics added.)
By revelation, the Prophet Joseph Smith translated verse 24 to read “For unto such hath God promised his Spirit. And they who worship him, must worship in spirit and in truth.” (JST, John 4:26.)
The Prophet’s interpretation not only harmonizes with the other passages and episodes in the scriptural records, but it also demonstrates how taking one isolated passage out of context creates false theology. Even without Joseph Smith’s changes, the passage makes sense. One can say that God is a Spirit, just as it can be said, “Man is spirit.” (D&C 93:33.) President Gordon B. Hinckley explained:
“Of course God is a spirit, and so are you, in the combination of spirit and body that makes of you a living being. …
“Each of us is a dual being of spiritual entity and physical entity. All know of the reality of death when the body dies, and each of us also knows that the spirit lives on as an individual entity and that at some time, under the divine plan made possible by the sacrifice of the Son of God, there will be a reunion of spirit and body. Jesus’ declaration that God is a spirit no more denies that he has a body than does the statement that I am a spirit while also having a body.” (Ensign, Nov. 1986, p. 49.)
An important point to remember with regard to doctrinal teachings is that the Lord’s church functions on the basis of two fundamental principles: (1) the testimony of apostolic witnesses, who know by personal experience the reality and truth of the Lord and his teachings; and (2) the testimony of each member, based upon knowledge, faith, and the witness of the Holy Ghost.
A modern prophet, Joseph Smith, Jr., provided the world with an eyewitness testimony of God’s true nature. Concerning a glorious visitation by the Father and the Son, Joseph testified, “I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is my Beloved Son. Hear Him!” (JS—H 1:17.)
Joseph Smith saw a confirmation of what Jesus had impressed upon Philip long ago: “Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” (John 14:9.) Jesus was apparently informing his disciples that he and his Father were alike in attributes, in power, and in bodily appearance.
How different from the prevailing beliefs that were propounded from the pulpits at the time of Joseph Smith! The resurrected Jesus declared to the Prophet that those creeds were “abominable,” for so strongly were they riveted to the hearts of men that their hearts were drawn away from their Heavenly Father. (JS—H 1:19; D&C 123:7.)
The greatest contribution of the Prophet Joseph Smith to this modern era is the Book of Mormon, which contains a testimony of the resurrected Christ and his ministry to the people of the Western Hemisphere after his resurrection in Jerusalem. The Book of Mormon records that 2,500 people saw and heard the Savior and testified of his bodily resurrection of flesh and bones.
Compare with the idea of an all-powerful yet immaterial three-in-one spiritual essence these two sentences from Joseph Smith, who was speaking as revelation dictated:
“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.” (D&C 130:22.)
“There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure.” (D&C 131:7.)
Living prophets and Apostles today continue to teach of God’s true nature. They testify that Jesus Christ is a living, resurrected being with a body of flesh and bones. How do they know? Like Apostles of old, they are his special witnesses.
With regard to the second principle, each individual may receive confirmation of spiritual truths by the power of the Holy Ghost. As Moroni in the Book of Mormon urges us to do:
“Ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.” (Moro. 10:4.)
On the basis of knowledge prompted by the Holy Ghost, we can know that the nature of God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, as taught by the Bible and as revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith, is true. Those who have received their understanding about God from errant traditional Christianity need no longer struggle with that confused and confusing doctrine. The Prophet’s inspired declarations about the Godhead are in total agreement with the biblical evidence that Jesus and the Father have distinct, material bodies.
Originally posted by Marchello
BOTTOM-LINE: God will do whatever He wants according to the SOVEREIGNTY of His OWN WILL...and He doesn't care one wit what His CREATION thinks or objects to.Marchello
And there you have it folks - Marchello telling us exactly why we should love God with all our hearts.
Really takes the soft focus romanticism away from God when you put it like that. But then again with all the killing he has done, been a party to and encouraged over the years the only thing separating him from some old archaic blood god was the "God clause" - everything I do is right because I can do no wrong, and I love you.
Awwwww. Well buddy, love is a two way street, and if you are anything like Marcello describes you, well, you are about as loving as a brick wall. Not caring what we think or object to. Work on your communication skills.
BOTTOM-LINE: Your beliefs are NOT Christian beliefs...for if you could "earn" your salvation by "jumping through hoops"...you WOULDN'T need Christ to die for your SINS [for you could expiate them yourself]. Since you DON'T need Christ to DIE for your sins--->your sins REMAIN...and you are still "DEAD IN YOUR SINS."Marchello
Once again - Christians aren't defined by doctrinal matters like "will good works help us get to heaven" - they are defined as Christians by faith in Jesus as the Christ. So far you haven't really presented anything that shows Mormon's don't believe in Jesus, just come up with the things that make Mormons Mormons, as compared to other Christians. Or the things that make Uniververalists Universalists.
Believing in things differently is not the same as not believing at all.