Qui Gon... Guilty!!!

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry,. but GL himself has spoken on the vital nature of the 'no attachment' rule, so that is absolute.

Jedi must NOT form attachments else they will fall to the Dark Side, and that is true continuously. The logic of it is explained in the movie and by GL.

Yeah, I see your point, but if that's the case why did Yoda allow Luke and Leia to have a 'normal' upbringing (and thus forming attachments) if it's such a big no-no? Luke had attachments and he turned out fine.

Again, no offence.

The ways of the Jedi had changed drastically by the time of the New Jedi Order, as well as the circumstances of Luke's training.

Well if you want to get technical, the whole thing is Padme's fault. SHE is the one who motioned for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Velourum(spelling?), SHE was the one who allowed Anakin to be with her when she KNEW better (even telling Anakin himself). It was HER who left Jar Jar as a representative (who suggested the emergency powers). And, we don't know this for sure but we'll give it a go here....if she let her guards go with her to Mustafar, its a good chance OB1 wouldn't have gotten on board and she possible could have brought Ani back(doubtful, but you never know). BUT NOOOOO, she had to go get knocked up by a jedi, and the whole 9, so i blame her. Granted Anakin and Palps were responsible for their own actions, set the pins up for Palps to knock down.

And yes while Qui Gon was strict, he showed respect to Anakin AND OB1, and i think its pretty safe to say Anakin would have felt more appreciated in the long run, thus preventing so much time spent with Palps, who he was hanging out with because he made him feel the way the Jedi and OB1 SHOULD have been making him feel. Not kissing his ass or anything, but just say every now and again, "hey good job"...or "thank you....sincerely" Ya know? But no, they treated him like bantha poodoo from the time he set foot in that council room. I mean look at his track record:

Trained by Yoda's apprentice - plus being as he was one of the most powerful.

Trained by a future Sith Lord - plus because while having the same traits, he maintained his positive outlook becoming one of the most knowledgeable Jedi's ever.

He TRAINED of of the "best" Jedi's ever - plus
And then look at OB1...he had ONE apprentice to train, and look what happened...

And before you say it, no....just because you are good or even great at something, doesn't mean you're gonna be good at teaching.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry,. but GL himself has spoken on the vital nature of the 'no attachment' rule, so that is absolute.

Jedi must NOT form attachments else they will fall to the Dark Side, and that is true continuously. The logic of it is explained in the movie and by GL.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Yeah, I see your point, but if that's the case why did Yoda allow Luke and Leia to have a 'normal' upbringing (and thus forming attachments) if it's such a big no-no? Luke had attachments and he turned out fine.

Again, no offence.

Err, no, Luke doesn't actually have any attachments in the way Anakin did. He's got no family (that he knows of) and he doesn't actually fall into any form of possessive love with anyone.

Luke is a very special case caused by the fact that everyone had to stay hidden for so long- a last desperate gamble.

And yes, it is pretty simple, and that's STar Wars for you.

If you become attached to something, you fear to lose it. Fear leada to the Dark Side. The films are an example in point about how vital that rule about attachment is- GL was telegraphing that the Jedi knew of the problem, so we would know what was happening to Anakin.

Any post-ROTJ Jedi Order would have to have the same rule, else they would all start going Dark Sided.

qui gon was far too reckless, he caused most of the problems simply because he wouldnt follow the code.
Doing things like influencing Boss Nass and trying to mind-trick different people for his own gain was nothing short of defiant to the Jedi code.
I know he THOUGHT he was doing right but thats also the point , he blinded himself and most importantly of all he did not follow the councils advice with regards to Anakin.

Its quite ironic that Qui Gons ignorance is revealed with the very first conversation he has with Obwan at the very start of Ep 1, Ob1 sensed something "illusive" and yet Qui Gon did not simply becasue he choose to believe in keeping his thoughts " here and now", Ob1 then questions Qui Gons thoughts based on the fact that Yoda had told Ob1 to be "mindful of the force" . so what does qui gon do? tells him "no, not at the expense of the moment" which is a direct defiance of what Yoda had taught OB1. Qui Gon does this throughout the whole of Ep1....

1. " not at the expense of the moment" - defiance of Yodas teachings

2. " we could use a transport?" mind trick on Boss Nass

3. " Your gods demand his life belongs to me" mind trick on Boss Nass

4. " I dont sense anything" Qui Gons oversight of the "illusive'' feeling his very own Padawan senses.

5. " republic credits will do nicely" attempt to mind trick Watto ) basically rip him off)

6. " The queen doesn't need to know" - when Padme questions Qui Gons decision to back Anakins with his deal with watto.

7. Then theres the whole bet thing with Watto that couldve stranded the queen on Tatooine for a " very long time'" even OB1 questioned Qui Gons actions over this.

8. " he is to be trained as a Jedi" qui gon telling Shmi about anakins future without knowing wether the coucil will actually approve the training

9. " I will train him then , I take anakin as my padawan" - this ones a real doosey!! totally defieing the coucil AND going against the code which has stood for over a thousand generations

10. " OB1 is ready, there is little more he can learn from me" - making the decision that OB1 is ready for the trials when its not his decision to make.

11. " please dont defy the council master" , " I shall do what I must OB1" - once again this clearly shows Qui Gons total defiance of the Jedi Council.

12. " promise you will train the boy Ob1, he IS the chosen one" - with Qui Gons last breath he heaps the greatest burden onto his Padawan and makes him promise to train anakin with knowing wether he is capable of doing so.

Not to mention what sort of effect all of this must have on OB1 and Anakin in seeing Qui Gons reckless ways, not adzactly a good Jedi role-model.

That's nonsense- he wasn;t doing it for his own gain; his actions were .a all selfless in the aid of others and b. only were used in reasonable circumstances.

He didn't try to trick Watto into giving the parts away for free, he just wanted Watto to take his currency- which was perfectly legal.

"Not at the expense of the moment" is NOT defying Yoda- did you watch ESB or not?

Your Gods demand his life belong to me- was simple fact.

The Queen doesn;t need to know- it was his mission, he had the right to decide that.

And he did not take Anakin as his Padawan precisely because the Council said no. he did not defy that, he just wanted Obi-Wan promoted so that he COULD take Anakin.

You must watch more carefully. Yes, QGJ was very reckless and deifant, but there was great wisdom there too.

He was one of the more decent Jedi IMO,(except Obi, he was a'ight) even Yoda seemed rather...cold-hearted in comparison, Mace does of course, and movie-wise no other Jedi is looked upon as much.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry,. but GL himself has spoken on the vital nature of the 'no attachment' rule, so that is absolute.

Jedi must NOT form attachments else they will fall to the Dark Side, and that is true continuously. The logic of it is explained in the movie and by GL.

han and leia were to be married at the end of ep6. the fat man either contradicted himself or you're misinterpreting his words.

If qui gon had to take on annie (I know it would never happen but just suppose it did) would he have won or lost?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Err, no, Luke doesn't actually have any attachments in the way Anakin did. He's got no family (that he knows of) and he doesn't actually fall into any form of possessive love with anyone.

no, he had an attachment to his sister and feared losing her either by death or to the darkside. ben senses this and tells luke that his feelings do him credit but they could be made to serve the emporer. those feelings are attachment...love.

ANAKIN was the special case in that his love was based in fear. his attachment was the exception in that it only made him want more power to control their destinies, so in the end it became selfish, wanting more and more power. luke made a similar mistake in rushing to bespin in ep5 and by releasing his anger on vader in ep6 and almost turning to the darkside.

and yes, his love for leia was dangerous as well, perhaps because he just found out about her. all i know is that when beru and owen died, he was able to let go, with ZERO jedi training. it was his good nature that made him able to let go, and which made it clear that it might be a good idea to train him imho

it seems to me that the jedi (yoda and ben) had but one of two choices:

-allow a fully developed person to train
-allow a baby who is not developed emotionally AT ALL to train. a clean slate.

luke was the first
the old order was the second

but in a way, anakin was an abomination of a jedi, torn away from his mother when he was already attached but not old enough to be able to let go. this lead to his turn, not that she was killed but that losing her at such a young age (and yet too old) left a void in him which would never be filled. and then to watch her die...

Originally posted by Ushgarak
He didn't try to trick Watto into giving the parts away for free, he just wanted Watto to take his currency- which was perfectly legal.

Buuuuuullshit! He WAS trying to screw Watto. Spekdeh is right, Givin' him useless currency would be tha same as just straight-up stealin' the parts.

Anakin loses his mother, lets his anger take control, kills tuskans.
Luke loses his Uncle and Aunt, makes an angry face, lets go of it.

Anakin fears losing his wife, joins the darkside to prevent it.
Luke fears losing his sister, fights the darkside to prevent it.

And with the Han/Leia wedding thing, Leia hardly qualifies as a Jedi at that time, so the Code doesnt apply to her.

Qui Gon is like Luke, he does what he feels/knows is the right thing to do, up to a certain point.

Side question: Could Yoda and Obi Wan also feel the good in Vader, or only Luke?

i guess GL should have put a big neon sign over lukes head when he attacked vader that said
"i am turning to the darkside. thats why im foaming at the mouth and my eyes are popping out of my skull with pure anger and hatred. what i'm doing is BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD"

Yeah but he didnt join the darkside. He saw what he was doing and stopped himself.

the fact that he was able to stop himself doesnt chage the fact that he did the absolute wrong thing.

Sure. But he stopped himself, whereas Anakin kept going.

And now Ive forgotten what the point of this was 😑

Originally posted by Sir Mist

Anakin fears losing his wife, joins the darkside to prevent it.
Luke fears losing his sister, fights the darkside to prevent it.

that was the point i was arguing

and to answer your question, i get the impression that yoda and ben were to wrapped up in oldschool jedi dogma to be able to even grasp that there would still be good in vader, let alone trying to sense it.