Originally posted by PVS
that was the point i was arguing
Ah ok.
Originally posted by PVS
and to answer your question, i get the impression that yoda and ben were to wrapped up in oldschool jedi dogma to be able to even grasp that there would still be good in vader, let alone trying to sense it.
Sounds like the Jedi do need love or whatever to fully understand things then. Padme could feel it, Luke could feel it, but two Jedi masters who follow the code cant.
I think they felt it because one, they felt genuine emotions towards Vader/Anakin, whereas Yoda and OB1 were looking at it from a "Im a jedi that needs to destroy a sith" point of view. I know OB1 was hurt by anakins turn, and told him he loved him, but i dont feel it was the same type of of real down home "love". More or less, they wanted to feel it and he wanted THEM to feel it.
I hope that makes sense.
Re: Qui Gon... Guilty!!!
Originally posted by Mstr GEKA
Looking at the movies as a whole...Dunno if this has been discussed already but.. IMO Qui Gon is responsible for all the trouble...
He is the one that rescued JAR JAR and we know what jar jar is responsible of both in and for the movie...
He also stood strong on the point that Anakin had to be trained... training that turned against the Jedi.
And who was Qui Gon's master??
Originally posted by PVS
no, he had an attachment to his sister and feared losing her either by death or to the darkside. ben senses this and tells luke that his feelings do him credit but they could be made to serve the emporer. those feelings are attachment...love.
He aid the fact that Luke worked it out did him credit!
But yes, those possible feelings of Luke ARE very dangerous to him. In fact, it was mention of his sister being hared that set Luke on a path that NEARLY made him mirror his father. That whole point does nothing bit confirm GL's words. And he didn't let go of Beru dying at all- he wanted revenge.
Which I am not misinterpreting- he is very clear. We have no idea what will become of han and Leia. Perhaps Leia, in any case, will never be trained. No contradiction- because we have no facts.
GL makes it very clear that attachment is very bad for a Jedi- and that ALL attachment leads to fear. This is an absolute. Yoda even talks of the importance of being able to let go. Sorry, this is the way it is. The Dark Side can never be used for good. If you think otherwise you spectacularly missed the point of the films. Star Wars morality IS black and white- it is the very basis that GL created Star Wars.
"Buuuuuullshit! He WAS trying to screw Watto. Spekdeh is right, Givin' him useless currency would be tha same as just straight-up stealin' the parts."
Crap. If he was trying to cheat Watto he would have tried to get it for free. Fact is, Watto, legally speaking, should have accepted those credits.
Originally posted by Darth Subjektlike obi-wan said in the reveng eof the sith game "i only wanted what was best for you Anikan i wasent prepared to train some one like you" that is probably true so if he was with qui-gon he would of got respect
Had Qui Gon lived, he would have trained Anakin right WITH the respect he deserved hence Anakin remaining the most powerful JEDI in the galaxy. Think about it, he was the first one to discover becoming one with the force and appearing as a ghost, although we didnt get the chance to see it 🙁.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
He aid the fact that Luke worked it out did him credit!
Originally posted by Ushgarak
[B]But yes, those possible feelings of Luke ARE very dangerous to him. In fact, it was mention of his sister being hared that set Luke on a path that NEARLY made him mirror his father.
"bury your feelings...they do you credit, but THEY COULD BE MADE TO SERVE THE EMPORER"
how much more clear could he have been that
1- it was good for luke to have such feelings
2- however good, those feelings were dangerous if the emporer found out
point is, he was never told that such attachment (and YES its attachment) is wrong or forbidden. just that its dangerous...and such is life
Originally posted by Ushgarak
[B]That whole point does nothing bit confirm GL's words. And he didn't let go of Beru dying at all- he wanted revenge.
i dont think thats accurate at all. beru and owen were never mentioned again. not even after that scene where he finds them dead. i thought star wars was so 'simple' and yet you're interpreting some hidden plot.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
[B]Which I am not misinterpreting- he is very clear. We have no idea what will become of han and Leia. Perhaps Leia, in any case, will never be trained. No contradiction- because we have no facts.GL makes it very clear that attachment is very bad for a Jedi- and that ALL attachment leads to fear. This is an absolute.
i was never aware of such an absolute statement from GL. could you please quote?
I could see how attachments COULD be a disadvantage and be dangerous ground, IF YOU LET THEM. Yoda said, "mourn them do not, miss them do not, rejoice for those who become one with the force." (maybe not word for word, but you know what part im talking about), but how did he act when order 66 was executed? It didn't look like he let go of everything/one he feared to lose, he looked pretty upset, like he was, i don't know SAD. Why be sad if you don't have SOME type of attachment to someone? And why have funerals for fallen Jedi? Funerals are for mourning the dead....Anakin had attachments in a time when he was told not to, and he couldn't handle the situation, so he felt he had to hide those attachments, whereas Luke was never told not to have attachments and THATS what prolly saved him from turning to the darkside. He realized what anakin didn't, that if you're fighting something to protect the ones you love, joining them doesn't help...
You just need to listen to his commentaries and hos continual takking about how it is the nature of attachment that led Anakin down the dark path, PVS, it is a very common theme in his sayings- and is also directly taken from the Buddhist beliefs that are the main inspiration for the Force.
And I am not reading in anyhting extra- it seemed damned obvious to me that Luke wanted revenge. Just look at his face.
Luke's attachment could- and very nearly did- serve the Emperor.
I am afraid this fact remains. Attachments cause fear, feer leads to the Dark Side. This is a universal rule, it is not wrong, and it cannot be denied. He even just specifically hammered the point home hard again in his latest film where Yoda directly warns against the problem with attachment. It's just the way it is.
"The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth. They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith, page 213"
See? No attachments. Period. or if you want it more simply:
"Anakin turns into Darth Vader because he gets attached to things."
Jedi have to let go. Yoda says it, GL says it, everything about Star Wars says it. Having an attachment means you have not let go- and so you have failed as a Jedi.
If there were only more Jedi like Gui Gon Jinn tbqh. Dooku even said in EpII Qui Gon woulda seen through all of that shit. He would've known what the Chancellor was up to, and furthermore i'm pretty sure he'd stand against the action of the council telling Anakin to spy on the Chancellor, they knew it was wrong they didnt even put it on record the sly bastards.
And I bet Sidious knew Qui Gon would be problematic so he unleashed Maul to rid of him and his apprentice, which off course we know Maul only did half of the work.
Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
While I agree with all your points made in this thread, you have to wonder about that one given that it was Obi-Wan who said "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
Nah, that was just a mem'rable theatrical line. The Jedi are always saying oxymorons in the saga. 'Naw mean?
i understand that ush, but there are degrees to attachment.
obiwan was attached to anakin.
"anakin, dont try it!"
here he is dealing with a sith. by all aspects of the jedi code, anakin is lost and must be killed. and here we have perhaps the most ideal jedi begging his friend to not let himself be killed, which very well could have proven to be fatal. he could have died due to his own attachment.
(in tears) "you were my brother anakin!!! i loved you!!!"
attachment, even at the bitter end
"The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth. They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."
i think the rift in ideas is created by the word "attachment". GL means attachment as in greed, not being able to let go. but attachment cannot be black and white. obiwan DID have an attachment to anakin. that attachment was love. he did what he had to do, but in your black and white world of star wars, obiwan should have just cut him down, said " *sigh* oh well", and whistled a merry tune as he skipped back to padme's starship. well that wasnt the case. instead, it scarred him and forced him to live with a terrible bitterness for his old friend, never wanting to grasp the fact that there was still good in vader. but padme and luke felt that good. and WHY? because they were not trained as jedi in the sense of the old code. they were just regular people.
how much more obvious could it have been that luke was BETTER than a jedi, in that he could find hope in the hopeless. his own father killed his mentor, tortured his friends, blew up his sisters home world, cut off his hand, and threatened the very existance of all he knew and loved. any jedi would have considered vader dead to them, as way par for the code. but after all that, luke had compassion and HOPE for his father.
the finality of RotJ was that luke was right and the jedi were wrong, or rather mistaken.
"once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny"
"he's more machine now than man...twisted and evil"
in a sense they were accurate, but their black and white thinking left them blind to the very thing that SAVED the galaxy: a sith COULD be redemed, given the right influence.
if the saga had played out according to what the ideal jedi would have done, luke would have tried to kill vader and sidious, and he would have FAILED. whether struck down or turned to the darkside, a strict adherence to the code would have left everything in darkness.
the jedi were mistaken ush, thats the whole point of the conclusion.
thats what set luke above ALL, and why he is the true hero of the story imho. he did the ABSOLUTE TABOO of the jedi code. "this is your life". a jedi NEVER parts with his saber. and what conclusion did luke come to in the end? he lost the saber. he refused to do the duty of an old republic jedi. and that was the very right thing to do.