Religion vs Spirituality

Originally posted by klimtog321
So if Buddhism is not a religion, then why are you talking about it on the religion forum? 🙄 Just kidding, but I do disagree that spirituality was well defined in the post. So before we go further I think we need to agree on some definition of terms. One dictionary I have defines religion as either 1) belief in and reverence for a supernatural power recognized as the Creator and governor of the universe or 2) The spiritual or emotional attitude of one who recognizes the existence of super human power or powers.
Spirituality is the state of being spiritual which is defined by 1) having nature of the spirit 2) of, concerned with, or affecting the soul 3) of, concerned with or pertaining to God. 3) of or belonging to a church or religion 4) supernatural.
So by these definitions, there is no clear distinction between the two. I’m not saying I particular like these definitions. Please offer whatever working definitions you wish to use. Could you please also define for me what “the truth” is that there are 84,000 ways to reach?

The reason I speak about it in the religion forum, and not the philosophy forum is because it is accepted as a religion.

Also, the deffinition of religion you gave me do not fit Buddhism. We do not believe in the higher being, nor supernatural being controling our lives. Mind is everything.

Besides, religion and spirituality cannot be boiled down to a simple deffinition from a dictionary.
Its far to superiour and complex to be described in a sentance.

Originally posted by debbiejo
I feel religion would have you take it's word for it...That is why all religions ultimately fail..Spirituality, on the other hand, will always succeed. Religions asked you to learn form the experience of others..Spirituality urges you to seek your way...Religion cannot stand spirituality. It cannot abide in it..For Spirituality may bring you to a different conclusion than a particular religion...and religion cannot tolerate it...Religion encourages you to explore the thoughts of others and accept them as truths for your own self...Spirituality invites you to toss away the thoughts of others and come up with your own.."Feeling Good" is your way of telling yourself that your last thought was a truth, that your last word was wisdom, that your last action was love...The phrase "If it feels good do it", is not accepted by religions and makes one feel guilty for any pleasures as churches has defined it....I feel to know how far you have progressed in life and to measure how highly you have evolved is simply look to see what makes you "feel good", not "feel bad"....Knowing yourself is not denying what might feel good for you. Self-denial is self-destruction, of course not at the expense of others...It's funny how Religions have made everything that is natural into a sin...We all have that little voice inside us...It tells us what feels good for ourselves or not.....Whether physically or emotionally, Your thoughts?

Interesting, "Spirituality may bring you to a different conclusion than a particular religion...and religion cannot tolerate it...", why do you say a particular religion, but then generalize religion? Looking to see what makes a person "feel good" can be dangerous, especially if such a view on life is adopted by the wrong person (ie. murderers, rapists, etc.)
"Self-denial is self-destruction" but consider that "self-indulgence is also self-destruction" (ie. various celebrities, athletes, drug addicts, etc.)
"of course not at the expense of others..." how can a person know to draw the line? That little voice or conscience tends to break down or run low on batteries at times, leaving only the negative impulses to govern a person's mind.
I gather from this argument that limits, especially within the boundaries of religion are considered bad. There are laws in society to govern people (ie. speed limits, judicial laws against murder, theft, etc.) If people adopted spirituality, then one can argue that the laws that govern our society are inconsequential because they are based upon what someone else believes to be wrong.

Religion...in particular Christianity, has been accused of interpreting and misinterpreting the Bible for years. They are accused of reading into verses different ways in order to come out with favorable answers. In other words, they become God and decide for themselves what is the right answer and what is wrong or what "feels good" to them. Spirituality, by your definition, is that it "invites you to toss away the thoughts of others and come up with your own.."Feeling Good" is your way of telling yourself that your last thought was a truth, that your last word was wisdom, that your last action was love...The phrase "If it feels good do it", is not accepted by religions and makes one feel guilty for any pleasures as churches has defined it". If this is true then Religion and Spirituality are one in the same and not distinct.

Originally posted by KPrince
Religion...in particular Christianity, has been accused of interpreting and misinterpreting the Bible for years. They are accused of reading into verses different ways in order to come out with favorable answers. In other words, they become God and decide for themselves what is the right answer and what is wrong or what "feels good" to them. Spirituality, by your definition, is that it "invites you to toss away the thoughts of others and come up with your own.."Feeling Good" is your way of telling yourself that your last thought was a truth, that your last word was wisdom, that your last action was love...The phrase "If it feels good do it", is not accepted by religions and makes one feel guilty for any pleasures as churches has defined it". If this is true then Religion and Spirituality are one in the same and not distinct.

One way to tell delusion from truth is, truth is consistent from beginning to end. Delusion will change as it creates it's own delusion.

Originally posted by KPrince

"Self-denial is self-destruction" but consider that "self-indulgence is also self-destruction" (ie. various celebrities, athletes, drug addicts, etc.)
"of course not at the expense of others..." how can a person know to draw the line? That little voice or conscience tends to break down or run low on batteries at times, leaving only the negative impulses to govern a person's mind.

Most religions want to impose their truth on you...Of course many follow because they no longer know what truth is anymore...So, they're told what it is....and not all of it is correct.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The reason I speak about it in the religion forum, and not the philosophy forum is because it is accepted as a religion.

Also, the deffinition of religion you gave me do not fit Buddhism. We do not believe in the higher being, nor supernatural being controling our lives. Mind is everything.

Besides, religion and spirituality cannot be boiled down to a simple deffinition from a dictionary.
Its far to superiour and complex to be described in a sentance.

Well, without a working definition then I can simply say that spirituality and religion mean the same thing to me which is a core set of beliefs about life, death, and the existence and nature or non-existence of God. And as I said, I didn’t particularly agree with the dictionary’s definitions but without any definition, then you can’t really debate whether one is better than the other or make generalizations about one versus the other. But wouldn’t you agree that any religion or spirituality assumes it’s correct and the others are incorrect?

Originally posted by debbiejo

Are you to judge how people find their spirituality?...Sounds kinda judgmental to me....

Is there only one way?...What is your way then........ [/B]

No, your quote said "Religion encourages you to explore the thoughts of others and accept them as truths for your own self...Spirituality invites you to toss away the thoughts of others and come up with your own" indicating that it is superior for that reason. But what I've tried to show is that isn't true since a person's spirituality is not arrived at without input from others in the form of books, teachers, etc. in the same way that a person's religion is arrived at by input from their books, teachers, etc. What's the difference?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
When you say "little voice" do you know what you are talking about? At every moment there are many “voices” in our minds. Most if not all of these “voices” are created by all the states of being that we are living at that moment. Many of these “voices” are really not “voices”, they are feelings; manifest karma from the ten worlds. All of these “voices” but one have something in common; they are filled with delusion. There is one “small quiet voice” in each of us and this voice is enlightenment. This “small quiet voice” was the same “small quiet voice” that is in you, me, and every other living and non-living beings. I will tell you now; Hitler did not follow that “small quiet voice”, like most people, Hitler was filled with delusion.

Well per Debbiejo, "simply look to see what makes you feel good" is apparently the little voice referred to and I think KPrince adequately addressed why that isn't necessarily such a good idea so I won't go into that again here.
I would like to explore this thought a little further though about why Hitler was deluded. Are you saying that because he caused harm or suffering to others? Fairly easy to get agreement on the killing of others as something bad, but what if you do or say something that hurts another person feelings or causes them stress in some way. Does that show that you aren't following the enlightened voice?

Originally posted by klimtog321
No, your quote said "Religion encourages you to explore the thoughts of others and accept them as truths for your own self...Spirituality invites you to toss away the thoughts of others and come up with your own" indicating that it is superior for that reason. But what I've tried to show is that isn't true since a person's spirituality is not arrived at without input from others in the form of books, teachers, etc. in the same way that a person's religion is arrived at by input from their books, teachers, etc. What's the difference?

The Bible alone, or the Koran also...Most religions frown down on any other seeking outside of ones faith...Only allowing to to read Christian resources...In fact it is a sin if your Catholic for you to attend a protest church...you have to have your sin forgiven by the Priest....There is nothing wrong with reading the Bible, Koran, or even a Satanic Bible, new age, Hindu, Buddhist, Native American writings...etc...It's broadening your view and making one knowledgeable......It doesn't mean that you throw all of them out...but you find spirituality by your individual connect to what god is...

Try this experiment...go to your church, lets say Baptist and tell your Pastor that you intend to pick up a Satanic Bible, see what his reactions is....or Even Buddhist, or New Age....Your pastor will convince you to go to the Christian book store where it is written with a slant on it...But if you really want to know then you go to the source of the writings..ie that religions itself...

Spiritual people only try to seek the truth, they don't want to be spoon fed...they are the seekers...and from what I've seen, they are the compassion ones compared to some select few in many churches...They are open to others, and not so ridged....now if it works for you to stay in a spoon fed religion, and you are not prejudice towards others...ie your going to hell now things, then good for you and all others...I just don't find that to be true in most organized religions.

The difference is Religion is docterine made, while Spirituality is a union with the "Source" of what is...ie god

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
One way to tell delusion from truth is, truth is consistent from beginning to end. Delusion will change as it creates it's own delusion.

Originally posted by debbiejo

Try this experiment...go to your church, lets say Baptist and tell your Pastor that you intend to pick up a Satanic Bible, see what his reactions is....or Even Buddhist, or New Age....Your pastor will convince you to go to the Christian book store where it is written with a slant on it...But if you really want to know then you go to the source of the writings..ie that religions itself...

Originally posted by klimtog321
Well, without a working definition then I can simply say that spirituality and religion mean the same thing to me which is a core set of beliefs about life, death, and the existence and nature or non-existence of God. And as I said, I didn’t particularly agree with the dictionary’s definitions but without any definition, then you can’t really debate whether one is better than the other or make generalizations about one versus the other. But wouldn’t you agree that any religion or spirituality assumes it’s correct and the others are incorrect?

If it means the same to you, then that is ok. Spirituality is all about it being personal.

Organised religion does not let real spiritual freedom - you learn from others, and you experience spirituality from others within organised reigion, while in spirituality you do that all by yourself.

Do you think that people who believe and know god, would not know or believe in god if there were no scriptures or holy books?
I really do not believe so.

^ Did you tell your pastor you were reading these books???...Do it, and see what he says...then come back and tell us...Honestly......and yes I do agree that some authors look down on other languages...I guess it's human nature for some.....

I didn't read the types of books just because I wanted to change my life style, I'm just naturally curious and wanted to open up my little box of knowledge...

Originally posted by debbiejo
OK...what I mean about self-denial is self-destruction is if you for instance, suppressing....suppressing anger = What?...suppressing fears = What?, suppressing your feelings = what?, suppressing love = what?...Living a lie = what?, hiding your feelings = what?....Living what someone else wants you to do instead of what you FEEL you should do = what?....Do you see what I mean...This is where the psychiatrist comes in and tries to help untie all your destructive self imposed denial......self denial = unhappy people, not living their "Truth", but instead trying to live up to what others want of them...Do you see what I mean?......Most people live their lives this way, makes for big money in the counselling business....of course this is not how we should live in this manor....Living in your truth lets loose all the "shoulds" and frees a person to be living in the moment, not the past and not fretting about the future...The present is just that a present...It's a gift to yourself.....It's that small voice that lets you know....the small voice that we are told not to listen to as children...the voice of parents telling their childern "don't feel like that...etc."...What a parent better might say is "Why do you feel this or that way", most however don't....No when we are adults...most don't even recognize the voice anymore...and it's the voice of Truth.

Most religions want to impose their truth on you...Of course many follow because they no longer know what truth is anymore...So, they're told what it is....and not all of it is correct.

Ok...so what happens when someone else's truth clashes with your own? Spirituality can translate to selfishness at times, I say this based on your argument. The individual is looking towards his/herself for the answers, regardless of the person next to them. What if that person's truth conflicts with what you perceive to be truth? This happens in religion as well, which is why I say that the two are not distinct.

Originally posted by sonnet
Well said, thank you.

Don't thank me, thank Buddha. I was paraphrasing from the Lotus Sutra. 😄

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
If it means the same to you, then that is ok. Spirituality is all about it being personal.

Organised religion does not let real spiritual freedom - you learn from others, and you experience spirituality from others within organised reigion, while in spirituality you do that all by yourself.

Do you think that people who believe and know god, would not know or believe in god if there were no scriptures or holy books?
I really do not believe so.

Ok, I’m a little confused by your wording. What I think your question is, “Do I believe that people would still believe in God without some holy book that says so?” And my answer is yes I do. I know this isn’t a real life example, but for the sake of argument let’s say someone grew up alone on an island with no contact from others. They would learn and experience so much about their world that they couldn’t explain or understand that I think they would naturally conclude that there was a Creator who made it all. I think it would be unnatural for someone in that situation to conclude that they were the Creator that made this world for themselves but for some reason, just couldn’t remember doing it.

The point that I’ve repeatedly been trying to make is that each person, based on their own experiences, observations, relationships with others, what they read, what they hear, etc, comes to a conclusion or decision about what they believe in which is their religion or spirituality. I believe the author of the original quote to be wrong in saying that spirituality is superior because it’s only based on one’s own journey. Unless that journey is the person on the island, that journey is not taken “alone” and has been influenced by a multitude of outside inputs from others. In your case amongst other things, the teachings of Buddha have influenced your beliefs. If there was no Buddha and no one to point to that had achieved enlightenment, would you even believe it is possible?

Originally posted by debbiejo

The difference is Religion is docterine made, while Spirituality is a union with the "Source" of what is...ie god

So what you said is that spirituality is a union with the Source. Therefore, those who don’t have this specific union with the Source as you’ve defined Him/Her/It, are not spiritual and do not have truth which by necessity includes all other belief systems (Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Taoism, etc.) And ultimately, your truth is right and others are wrong which once again is no different than the criticism of religion that the author made.

Originally posted by debbiejo

“… and from what I’ve seen, they are the compassion ones compared to some select few in many churches.”

Originally posted by klimtog321
So what you said is that spirituality is a union with the Source. Therefore, those who don’t have this specific union with the Source as you’ve defined Him/Her/It, are not spiritual and do not have truth which by necessity includes all other belief systems (Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Taoism, etc.) And ultimately, your truth is right and others are wrong which once again is no different than the criticism of religion that the author made.

I think Buddhism, Hinduism, etc...have more of what I'm talking about...It's the Christianity and Muslim Religions that are lacking...Though I can't speak on the Muslim subject...Maybe Lil B. could enlighten us on that.

When it comes to Christianity...it's always tied to rituals..
some believe :

1 .You must believe in 3 in one god
2. You must believe in only 1 god, Jesus was only a savor for sins, not to be prayed to.
3. You must be baptized in "Jesus" name only
4. you must be baptized in "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."
5. You must have 1st, communions....Catholic thing.(and a sin to visit another church that's non Catholic.
6. You must take communion with wine and bread.(or grape juice)
7. You must ask a priest for forgiveness.
8. You must confess daily to god in Jesus name.
9. You must speak in tongues as proof of having the holy spirit.
10.Only Christians can hear the spirit, all others are not of god.
11.Anything written outside the bible is Satan temping them.
12.You must ONLY pray in Jesus name.
13.You must keep a certain day holy.
14.You must keep all the OT feast days to be accepted by god.
15...etc....

This to me sounds like more rituals....And these rituals are not new...they've been practiced under other Pagan names through out history as well...Persians, Babylonians, etc....Only the names have changed not the rituals..

Spirituality is only a connected to god, the source of all.....no rituals need to be followed is what I am getting at.

Originally posted by debbiejo
I think Buddhism, Hinduism, etc...have more of what I'm talking about...It's the Christianity and Muslim Religions that are lacking...Though I can't speak on the Muslim subject...Maybe Lil B. could enlighten us on that.

When it comes to Christianity...it's always tied to rituals..
some believe :

1 .You must believe in 3 in one god
2. You must believe in only 1 god, Jesus was only a savor for sins, not to be prayed to.
3. You must be baptized in "Jesus" name only
4. you must be baptized in "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."
5. You must have 1st, communions....Catholic thing.(and a sin to visit another church that's non Catholic.
6. You must take communion with wine and bread.(or grape juice)
7. You must ask a priest for forgiveness.
8. You must confess daily to god in Jesus name.
9. You must speak in tongues as proof of having the holy spirit.
10.Only Christians can hear the spirit, all others are not of god.
11.Anything written outside the bible is Satan temping them.
12.You must ONLY pray in Jesus name.
13.You must keep a certain day holy.
14.You must keep all the OT feast days to be accepted by god.
15...etc....

This to me sounds like more rituals....And these rituals are not new...they've been practiced under other Pagan names through out history as well...Persians, Babylonians, etc....Only the names have changed not the rituals..

Spirituality is only a connected to god, the source of all.....no rituals need to be followed is what I am getting at.

Exactly.

As for Islam =

1. You must believe in Allah and Allah alone.
2. You must believe Muhammad was the prophet of God.
3. You must pray 5 times a day
4. Anything written outside Quran is Satans work
5. Islam is the only right religion, all others are damned to Hell (same characteristics apply to Jews and Christians)
6. You must pray 5 times a day. salat
7. You must wear hijab if you are a woman.
8. You must fast on ramadan, unles you have health problems and/or are a pregnant woman.
9. Must pay pilgramige to Mecca is financialy able.
10. You must follow the Quran literaly and absolutely - it is the word of god.
11. Theocracy is the only right way of government.
12. Every non-muslim has been blinded by Allah, and should not be taken in partnership by any muslim.

Most important sentance in Islam -

As-salamu-alykum-wa-rahmatullaahi-wa-barakatuh!

It means - There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messanger.

etc...

Originally posted by debbiejo
I think Buddhism, Hinduism, etc...have more of what I'm talking about...It's the Christianity and Muslim Religions that are lacking...Though I can't speak on the Muslim subject...Maybe Lil B. could enlighten us on that.

When it comes to Christianity...it's always tied to rituals..
some believe :

Spirituality is only a connected to god, the source of all.....no rituals need to be followed is what I am getting at.

You’re sugar-coating your response in referring to Buddhism and Hinduism. If you think you’re belief is right they are wrong. Truth is truth. Partial truth is no truth at all.
Your laundry list has two problems, one it contains many items that are not rituals at all, simply beliefs and secondly to imply that all Christians believe these things is way off. Many things you listed are Catholic-specific doctrines, for example, that a Protestant would adamantly disagree with and vice versa.
Further to imply that Spiritualists do not employ rituals is also false. I can easily argue that the chanting and meditating done by Spiritualists is nothing more than a ritual.