Scarlet Witch vs the Celestials?

I think an interesting point that people continually miss is that these alternate universes are simply quantum contingencies of the Main 616 Universe. The entire Marvel Multiverse has the same source and falls under the same concepts of causality. That's the premise of the "What If's". In a way, it's a direct result of causality, as each universe in the multiverse is in effect simply the 616, but with some minor alteration on a quantum scale that leads to a distinct divergent reality.

The birthing of existence itself gives rise to all possibilities. That's why the concept of impossible does not truly exist.

Also, Wanda did cause the Chaos Wave. It was a direct result of her actions, though it was not intentional. The fact that it occured makes it a variable, and therefore, makes it possible for Wanda to consciously produce it at will. Causality isn't inherrent to the 616 only, it's a multiversal concept. It's a defining concept.

That's the catch 22 pitting her in forum bouts.

If it's possible, Wanda can make it so.

Now I'm going to Onionbooty.com to watch porn... 😄

Originally posted by demigawd
Most of what you wrote rehashes what we've been going over in circles about. I feel no need to re-visit it. If you don't want to believe that Hawkeye killed Wanda and that the scene was very clearly meant to show that she's beyond death, that's on you. I assure you that you're in the minority. I just think it's silly to demand FURTHER proof when you KNOW that it's just happened last month, so further proof doesn't exist.

Whatever you say Demi. However its silly to make such claims and then use them in debate as fact when its a recent development and the on panel showing wasnt conclusively the same as your interpretation. If you were objective you'd at least describe the threads battle scenario with Wandas mortality still very much in place.

Originally posted by demigawd
Hello? Avenger! Massive database shared with other superhero teams? They all know about each other's rogues.

Speculation. Again not conclusive. Plus Wandas deranged state will hinder her decision making ability anyway.

Originally posted by demigawd
It wasn't...it was eminating outward and threatening to destroy OTHER realities (ultimately including its own). If it were heading TO 616, then it would have destroyed it and the breach, and there wouldn't have been any other problem, would there?

Ummm but it was headed towards 616:

When the breach was sealed the problem was solved. How does that work out? Would Roma leave Wanda around free to do it again if she was the source of the chaos wave? Her manipulations triggered the out of control chaos wave. It was an after effect of her alteration of 616.

Originally posted by demigawd
Which I proved conclusively to everybody but you, but you don't count anyway. 😛

No you stated your opinion on the subject some agreed some didnt. Either way you proved nothing.

Originally posted by demigawd
And it didn't solve the problem of the chaos wave....it sealed the breach that was causing the chaos wave to extend to other realities and cause all probablilties to collapse into itself, as represented by the various alternate reality characters transforming from the chaos wave. Roma wasn't concerned about what was happening to 616...she was concerned about what was going to happen to the omniverse, being, you know, the omniversal guardian and all. That's hardly a countering of Wanda's power.

That doesnt make sense. If Roma was so concerned about the threat Wanda posed then she would've taken actions to deal with her. If the chaos wave was generated by Wanda thats exactly what she would've done. The chaos wave stemmed from Wandas manipulations on reality. It wasnt something Wanda generated its a force she unleashed through her alteration of 616. Thats more or less stated by Roma in Uncanny.

Regardless of whether you truly believe she actually generated it or not you must accept that as that point is not stated anywhere in House of M or related titles (as it would be if she did) you cant state as fact that she did. You must at least be open to detailing a battle scenario where that isnt a feat of hers. Youre not prepared to do so.

Originally posted by demigawd
The reason why THIS is different is because it's Wanda's. Because her universal-scale probability-altering power is leaking through the breach and because there's no intent behind those chaos waves, it's causing randomized destruction. Simple as that.

Therefore like ive said all along the doorway being open is the problem. If there was never a breach then there wouldve been no problem. Its not as if Wanda generated the chaos wave. It stems from her manipulations causing a breach which in turn set off the wave. What are you not getting?

She never intentionally or subconsciously created it like you're making out. Its just the result of the breach she accidentally caused.

Originally posted by demigawd
Showing your lack of understanding of your own scans....again. The whole reason why Dr. Strange said that chaos magic doesn't exist is because Warbird ASKED him to use his magic to make things right. They said, "Well, if it's magic that's doing this, surely you can do something else". Strange replied that he couldn't undo it because it's NOT magical in nature. There's no such thing as chaos magic. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the chaos energy that she was proven to generate when she fought Templar and his crew. She just THOUGHT it was magical in nature. She was wrong. So this wasn't a retcon of chaos energy....it's a correction of Wanda's theory about what her power is.

What is magic if not energy that doesnt follow the laws of physics. So you're telling me theres a science based energy in the marvel universe called chaos energy? You gotta be kidding me Demi.LOL

Wanda thought she was generating chaos magic however Strange revealed that it wasnt chaos magic but instead Wanda was a reality warper. Going back to the the time she fought Templar is pointless because it precedes Stranges comments. In that battle she fought she was generating chaos magic as would have Templar because at that point it existed in Marvel, however Stranges comments retconned such energies out of Marvel.

Originally posted by demigawd
Know this - Reality warping is a category of power. It's not a power itself. Each reality warper uses different mechanics. She employs chaos energy to affect probabilities on a universal scale...she makes the impossible certain. THAT is how her reality-warping works.

Why are you telling me this? lol.

That is not how Wandas power works. Its how u think it works. However Strange has other ideas.

Originally posted by demigawd
You didn't see the effect Wanda's chaos wave was having on other universes? Look again, and pay attention to the alternate reality characters falling all over the place....it was weaking havoc.

No i saw the chaos wave cause trouble in Otherworld. Since when did that scene equal the destruction of other universes? Dont try and play down your previous comments. You said the wave destroyed universes. You were wrong. Accept that. Dont try and change it up.

Originally posted by demigawd
Because she knew that Wanda is beyond physical death. 😛

More proof for me!

More "logic" from the illogical.

Originally posted by demigawd
And how does Sublime pose any threat to the MULTIVERSE?

One would think that the threat of collapsing all of creation into a blob of nothingness would, I dunno, put a little crimp on evolution. Little one.

Youre missing the point....once again. If Phoenix never stopped Sublime then noone else would have. Phoenix was the only one who could stop the M'kraan crystal therefore she intervened. IG saga was stopped by the heroes, The End played out fine, Excalibur sealed the breach. You get it now? Cool.

Originally posted by demigawd
Oh good, so he'd be able to see all of the havoc Wanda's chaos wave was wreaking in other realities! Thanks for the info!

It wasnt Wandas chaos wave. She never generated it intentionally or subconsciously. Her manipulations breached the 616 brane. The draft of the 616 reality went through causing havoc with other realities.

Originally posted by demigawd
You can choose to believe whatever you want. I've provided more than sufficient proof. I won't revisit this.

You have just stated your interpretation on one inconclusive scene. That is not sufficient proof. Be objective and paint a scenario with a mortal Wanda in this thread. Dont claim your interpretation as fact when its so badly supported.

Originally posted by demigawd
Indeed. Unfortunately for you..I've provided tons of proof. Everybody recognizes this but you. I wonder why? My guess is because it's a threat to your precious Phoenix.

Everybody like who? Whirly? Well thats a given. Either way unsupported opinion does not a good argument make. I know this, you know this and thats good enough for me. 😱

Originally posted by demigawd
So I guess she just dies for her health, huh? Maybe she likes getting "jgg"y with it....

Nope. Cos its the nature of Phoenix as stated on panel. Your views and opinions mean little in the face of that. Sorry mate.

Originally posted by demigawd
Funny how you get to pick and choose Phoenix showings that are most flattering to your convoluted theories. The truth is....(and cover your ears Xplosive) there WAS no retcon. Everything makes perfect sense. the Phoenix Force was ALWAYS seen as a force of creation. Jean Grey was ALWAYS separate from the Phoenix Force...and still is. She just has the inborn ability to tap into its power. But she can die and be defeated like anybody else. That's always been true and never been changed. The only thing that was subject to a retcon was whether Jean's physical body was used as the Phoenix avatar or whether it made a copy of her body and personality and put Jean in hibernation. That's it. Everything else is totally consistent and never subject to confusion, controversy or clarification. Your retcons are imaginary.

Allow me the pleasure of redirecting you to a thread where the issue is talked about in full:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=368313&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=1

The point was brought up and argued far more competently than yourself and eventually the member conceded and now argues the retcon point in my stead. In fact via said thread Monolith the creator and moderator of UncannyX-men.net was convinced and will apparently change his Jean Grey bios.

Read comics.

Know your stuff.

😱

Well, that's it. I have to ask the question. GS, what is your take on TOHOTMU file on the Phoenix Force?

gs, to be clear: you're saying you think she might beat one celestial but not beat all of them, right?

pf aside, you've raised some good points, gs. there IS a lot of speculation on demi's part (and some on yours as well). demi's description as reality warping as a category of power and his ideas about how each uses it differently is certainly speculatory, and i'm not convinced she's beyond physical death either based on those scans. damn, wish i'd read the hom . . . .

anyway, it's interesting to me that you and demi see the origin of the wave so completely differently. it puzzles me that relatively bright guys could interpret this event entirely differently. i would love to hear the interpretation of others who have read the hom story. whirly? ill? anyone else??!

DID wanda 'create/generate' the wave as demi says, or is gs's interpretation the correct one where he says: <<Its not as if Wanda generated the chaos wave. It stems from her manipulations causing a breach which in turn set off the wave.>>

please don't pile on one side or the other. objective interpretations please . . . the answer would certainly seem to speak to the scope of her power and might help decide what happens in this battle. hmm, in case not everybody is falling along with this thread, perhaps . . . 😖hifty:

Originally posted by illadelph12
Sup GS.

[QUOTE=5476780]Originally posted by illadelph12
[B]I mentioned the multiversal/beyond concept angle in an earlier post (where I mentioned LT, Anomally, etc.). I'm not so sure Pre-Retcon Beyonder was above causality though. He seemed near omnipotent, but some of his actions in the Secret Wars make him seem very susceptible to probability. He's still a variable in numerous quantum outcomes. Hell, his coming into the 616 reality was a probabilty.

But then who is to say Wanda could control reality and possibilty to the scale she'd need to defeat Beyonder. We can only go by what shes shown or stated to be able to do on panel, not what you think she will be able to do based on the nature of her powers, without considering limitations shown or at least hinted in the comics. Yes the scope of her abilities is immense however you cant assume she can do absolutely anything when so far she has rewritten the 616 reality and shown nothing beyond that. Pre retcon Beyonder was also from beyond the multiverse so she wouldnt be able to affect him.

Originally posted by illadelph12
The Phoenix Force is kind of a gray area.

By it's nature, it's an absolute, but due to the fact TOAA did not have to create but chose to create, it's existence is also a choice, and a variable, so it is subject to causality. Not to mention how other beings besides avatars and hosts have either wielded or procured the power, it does seem inherrently susceptible to chance. Jean being one with the force is also susceptible to probability. It is possible that Jean isn't the true avatar of the Phoenix Force, or that the Force could simply leave her in a "Jggg" state (sorry, couldn't resist), or that somehow if the two (Wanda and Jean) were to engage in combat the fight would be deemed as not official Phoenix work by the Crown and Jean was left vulnerable due to acting out of duty.

But then here you're making assumptions about TOAA and the scope and range of Wandas power. TOAA and its decisions cant be affected by Wanda thats an absurd view to take, surely.

Jean being one with the force is something that predates her physical birth into reality. She is and always has been one with the Force thats how her Phoenix self could come and talk to her on the space shuttle whilst claiming to be her, to derive from her.

New X-men supported this with its talk of everything existing in the white hot room prior to their birth into creation.

Wanda has no control over anything which determines who and what The White Crown Phoenix is. They are all determined on high.

Could she give her a good battle? Sure. Could she beat her if Phoenix was sent to stop her? No way.

The only chance Wanda would stand would be if fighting her wasnt necessary for her work or if her Phoenix work had been completed and she was no longer required to stay in 616.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Basically, so long as a character's story can be re-written, Scarlet Witch has leverage.

That's why I consider her abilities a loophole.

I agree in most cases however i dont believe that to be the case against someone beyond universal level.

Your point about her only being human and having limitations, as well as fatiguing, while valid, are also moot points given the fact that through her powers Wanda can go beyond or all out negate her human limitations.

Originally posted by illadelph12
That is a possibility, afterall.

It's possible to exert yourself and not fatigue.

It's possible to take out an opponent in one action.

It's possible to fire a gun at point blank range and miss.

Her powers are making possibilities into reality by shere will.

Point well made. Point taken.

Originally posted by illadelph12
It would only take a moment for her to make herself completely invulnerable to any form of attack the Cellestials', or anyone else in creation for that matter, could pose because, well, it's a possibility.

Agreed as far as the Celestials go however people dont seem to be taking into account her state of mind and the irrationality, the affects on her decision making and lack of focus it can make for. On top of that i cant see how Wandas power will effect the likes of Phoenix and LT who arent determined by reality in Marvel. They both have jurisdiction over creation and in the terms of a thread match they would be given jurisdiction to take out Wanda to the max of their capabilities and against such odds Wanda really wouldnt stand a chance.

Originally posted by illadelph12
It's possible Wanda could be invulnerable to anything Cellestial based, from energy attacks to being stomped on repeatedly by Exitar, or that the Cellestials are allergic to Wanda and die upon contact, just like it's possible I could wake up tomorrow and be allergic to creamy chicken flavored Top Ramen and Ritz crackers.

It doesn't take a great span of time to go from one quantum contingency to another. All it takes is an action.

All it takes is a possibility.

Agreed. But take care with that line of thinking because just because Wanda can rewrite the laws of reality, that doesnt mean she doesnt have limits on her ability to do so. Some things will take more power to bring about than others, there may very well be a range of influence. So far Wandas warped 616. For all we know she couldnt simulaneously warp reality in other universes. For all we know making the current reality the norm for 616 could take a constant application of her powers which could explain why she appears powerless now. Its all too easy to get caught up in what she could possibly do but you need to focus on what shes been shown or stated to be able to do.

Originally posted by leonidas
gs, to be clear: you're saying you think she might beat one celestial but not beat all of them, right?

pf aside, you've raised some good points, gs. there IS a lot of speculation on demi's part (and some on yours as well). demi's description as reality warping as a category of power and his ideas about how each uses it differently is certainly speculatory, and i'm not convinced she's beyond physical death either based on those scans. damn, wish i'd read the hom . . . .

anyway, it's interesting to me that you and demi see the origin of the wave so completely differently. it puzzles me that relatively bright guys could interpret this event entirely differently. i would love to hear the interpretation of others who have read the hom story. whirly? ill? anyone else??!

DID wanda 'create/generate' the wave as demi says, or is gs's interpretation the correct one where he says: <<Its not as if Wanda generated the chaos wave. It stems from her manipulations causing a breach which in turn set off the wave.>>

please don't pile on one side or the other. objective interpretations please . . . the answer would certainly seem to speak to the scope of her power and might help decide what happens in this battle. hmm, in case not everybody is falling along with this thread, perhaps . . . 😖hifty:

Yeah. I believe she could beat one Celestial but considering her mindset, the fact that theres no conclusive evidence that shes beyond physical death and so on, I dont believe she could take out the entire race.

Everyones getting too excited on what they think is possible according to the nature of her abilities and ignoring whats shown in the comics.

Demis making out that the chaos wave was generated by Wanda. Im saying it wasnt and that the breach between realities she caused when she manipulated reality caused the chaos wave. Like with the M'kraan crystal thing its just a spill over, the draft of 616 spilling over into other realities. Not something generated by Wanda.

Heres why i think that:

No point in going quote by quote on a thread that nobody else is reading anymore. So, I'll just make these points:

1. When Templar was using chaos energy, it wasn't referred to as a magic. So Strange's clarification doesn't apply.

2. Your scan shows the chaos wave hitting the stitches. It doesn't show in what direction it's coming from or going to...so the scans are completely meaningless.

3. My "speculation" on the source of the reality warping isn't speculation. When I talked about Proteus having line of sight warping and matter-rearrangement, it's because it was how his own power was described. When I talked about Jamie Braddock seeing reality as a series of strings that he can yank open, it's how his own power was described. When I said that Scarlet Witch uses chaos energy, and it was described as energy before SHE speculated that it was magical in nature, it's because it was how Templar and Pagan described it. Strange, being qualified to speak only on matters of magic, simply said it wasn't magical....he never said anything about it not being chaos or a form of energy. That means the original definition of her power still applies. Pagan and Templar, being CHAOS BEINGS, are experts in the topic.

4. Otherworld IS another reality. The universe destroying is the rendering of it into chaos. That's what I mean....and it was done. Clear?

5. There's more evidence showing that Wanda created the chaos wave than not. Your own scan above shows that.

6. Roma was going to delete the entire dimension to solve the problem. It was clear that "killing" Wanda would have had no effect. Hawkeye recognized that, too.

IMO if she has universal power over contingency she beats anyone up to Galactus .... He existed in the last universe, and as the big bang is techniqually the first movement ! IMO she has the ultimate 3D super power !

Originally posted by leonidas
gs, to be clear: you're saying you think she might beat one celestial but not beat all of them, right?

pf aside, you've raised some good points, gs. there IS a lot of speculation on demi's part (and some on yours as well). demi's description as reality warping as a category of power and his ideas about how each uses it differently is certainly speculatory, and i'm not convinced she's beyond physical death either based on those scans. damn, wish i'd read the hom . . . .

anyway, it's interesting to me that you and demi see the origin of the wave so completely differently. it puzzles me that relatively bright guys could interpret this event entirely differently. i would love to hear the interpretation of others who have read the hom story. whirly? ill? anyone else??!

DID wanda 'create/generate' the wave as demi says, or is gs's interpretation the correct one where he says: <<Its not as if Wanda generated the chaos wave. It stems from her manipulations causing a breach which in turn set off the wave.>>

please don't pile on one side or the other. objective interpretations please . . . the answer would certainly seem to speak to the scope of her power and might help decide what happens in this battle. hmm, in case not everybody is falling along with this thread, perhaps . . . 😖hifty:

I read the comic, and I'd have to say I agree with both of you (GS and Demi).

To me, the answer is quite simple.

Wanda overstepped her bounds and manipulated the entire 616 universe in an amateur fashion with her powers, but unknowingly to her, a contingency of that action was the breach of the 616 and the chaos wave. The breach, though not intentional, was a possibility, and therefore, was a direct result of her power, just not the intended result. It is, however, now that the end result has been seen to be a direct result of her powers, feasible to infer that if Wanda consciously wanted to generate the effect, she could, because as has been shown in the comics, it is a possibility.

Therefore, GS is correct in saying that the Chaos wave was a result of Wanda's sloppy use of her powers that caused the end result, the breach in the 616 and the Chaos Wave.

And Demi is correct in saying that even though the wave was not intentional, it was a direct result of Wanda's powers because the result was a quantum variant that she brought to bear.

Basically, the breach and Chaos Wave was a possibilty that Wanda caused, though it was unintentional. Now that it is a known result, it's simply another variable she can consciously effect.

Also, I don't think Wanda would over exert herself effecting the Cellestials. She effected the sum of the 616 universe. One race of cosmic giants is a small part thereof. She doesn't have to go blast for blast with them, all it takes is one realized probability and its game over.

Oh, and GS, I said before Wanda couldn't effect TOAA or LT (or Anomaly). Jean/Phoenix, on the other hand, is a grey area (pun intended). I don't think Wanda can directly effect the Phoenix Force itself, but Jean's imprinted human failings like emotions and free choice (well, free choice isn't exactly a failing, but you understand what I mean) make her a variable in causality. It's already been shown she can die. It's already been shown her psyche can splinter into shards. It's already been shown that the Force itself is given to turbulent activity like going from light to dark, etc. These documented accounts show that Jean is susceptible to probabilty. Also, as I said in an earlier post (which you probably missed in your fervent desire to defend all things Phoenix):

Originally posted by illadelph12

The Phoenix Force is kind of a gray area.

By it's nature, it's an absolute, but due to the fact TOAA did not have to create but chose to create, it's existence is also a choice, and a variable, so it is subject to causality. Not to mention how other beings besides avatars and hosts have either wielded or procured the power, it does seem inherrently susceptible to chance. Jean being one with the force is also susceptible to probability. It is possible that Jean isn't the true avatar of the Phoenix Force, or that the Force could simply leave her in a "Jggg" state (sorry, couldn't resist), or that somehow if the two (Wanda and Jean) were to engage in combat the fight would be deemed as not official Phoenix work by the Crown and Jean was left vulnerable due to acting out of duty.

The Phoenix Force is absolute.

Jean, the avatar, has human failings and is vulnerable.

It was the will of the TOAA for Jean to wield the power.

Jean's own will determines how she exercises that power, and it has been shown that her will, and her psyche, are anything but absolute.

"Jggg".

Jean is a variable.

Phoenix would still be Phoenix without Jean.

Therefore, Jean is a variable.

Oh, and the Meggan/Capt. Britain tie in is because Claremont is writing New Excalibur.

<<6. Roma was going to delete the entire dimension to solve the problem. It was clear that "killing" Wanda would have had no effect. Hawkeye recognized that, too.>>

that much seems clear. be like finding and crushing the rock that was thrown into the pond that started the waves. crushing the rock does nothing to stop the waves -- you'd need to get rid of the water. but that's not your reason for thinking she's beyond death. you're only 'proof' is the arrow bit, correct?

Correct. I imagine that what you and GS are going to say is that as long as she has a dying thought she can undo the damage, but if not given an opportunity to have a dying thought - like being atomized - that it wouldn't apply. Given that there never has been and never will be such an event, it's impossible to say if she can respond from being atomized. Either way, it's a higher showing than "jgg", which Phoenix had a number of dying thoughts....and died.

I won't pursue the evidence any further than that. 🙂

Originally posted by illadelph12
I read the comic, and I'd have to say I agree with both of you (GS and Demi).

To me, the answer is quite simple.

Wanda overstepped her bounds and manipulated the entire 616 universe in an amateur fashion with her powers, but unknowingly to her, a contingency of that action was the breach of the 616 and the chaos wave. The breach, though not intentional, was a possibility, and therefore, was a direct result of her power, just not the intended result. It is, however, now that the end result has been seen to be a direct result of her powers, feasible to infer that if Wanda consciously wanted to generate the effect, she could, because as has been shown in the comics, it is a possibility.

Therefore, GS is correct in saying that the Chaos wave was a result of Wanda's sloppy use of her powers that caused the end result, the breach in the 616 and the Chaos Wave.

And Demi is correct in saying that even though the wave was not intentional, it was a direct result of Wanda's powers because the result was a quantum variant that she brought to bear.

Basically, the breach and Chaos Wave was a possibilty that Wanda caused, though it was unintentional. Now that it is a known result, it's simply another variable she can consciously effect.

Also, I don't think Wanda would over exert herself effecting the Cellestials. She effected the sum of the 616 universe. One race of cosmic giants is a small part thereof. She doesn't have to go blast for blast with them, all it takes is one realized probability and its game over.

Oh, and GS, I said before Wanda couldn't effect TOAA or LT (or Anomaly). Jean/Phoenix, on the other hand, is a grey area (pun intended). I don't think Wanda can directly effect the Phoenix Force itself, but Jean's imprinted human failings like emotions and free choice (well, free choice isn't exactly a failing, but you understand what I mean) make her a variable in causality. It's already been shown she can die. It's already been shown her psyche can splinter into shards. It's already been shown that the Force itself is given to turbulent activity like going from light to dark, etc. These documented accounts show that Jean is susceptible to probabilty. Also, as I said in an earlier post (which you probably missed in your fervent desire to defend all things Phoenix):

The Phoenix Force is absolute.

Jean, the avatar, has human failings and is vulnerable.

It was the will of the TOAA for Jean to wield the power.

Jean's own will determines how she exercises that power, and it has been shown that her will, and her psyche, are anything but absolute.

"Jggg".

Jean is a variable.

Phoenix would still be Phoenix without Jean.

Therefore, Jean is a variable.

I can buy that.

The Chaos Wave DID begin with Wanda and 616, as Roma herself said in GS's scans. And she can create that wave anytime she pleases. That's all I'm saying. 🙂

Originally posted by demigawd
Correct. I imagine that what you and GS are going to say is that as long as she has a dying thought she can undo the damage, but if not given an opportunity to have a dying thought - like being atomized - that it wouldn't apply. Given that there never has been and never will be such an event, it's impossible to say if she can respond from being atomized. Either way, it's a higher showing than "jgg", which Phoenix had a number of dying thoughts....and died.

I won't pursue the evidence any further than that. 🙂

that's fine. and you beat me to my retort! 😠

😄

all right, so the possibility does exist she can be disintegrated or such. a celestial could likely do that to her with the speed of thought. so again, i go back to it seems like it would be the first to attack -- or who could attack faster. while i'll agree completely that it appears she could destroy one, would she have the chance?

<<I can buy that.
The Chaos Wave DID begin with Wanda and 616, as Roma herself said in GS's scans. And she can create that wave anytime she pleases. That's all I'm saying.>>

that also seems to be the way i read it from the scan. 😉

Originally posted by leonidas
that's fine. and you beat me to my retort! 😠

haha...I'm a pro. I knew where you were going with that. 😄

all right, so the possibility does exist she can be disintegrated or such. a celestial could likely do that to her with the speed of thought. so again, i go back to it seems like it would be the first to attack -- or who could attack faster. while i'll agree completely that it appears she could destroy one, would she have the chance?

If there's a possibility, then advantage: probability controller. 😉

<<I can buy that.
The Chaos Wave DID begin with Wanda and 616, as Roma herself said in GS's scans. And she can create that wave anytime she pleases. That's all I'm saying.>>

that also seems to be the way i read it from the scan. 😉

Excellent!

<<If there's a possibility, then advantage: probability controller.>>

why? you think she can access her power more quickly than a celestial? wasn't she alreasy attacked psionically? if she was, it would seem the speed of thought is greater than the speed of her ability to manipulate probability, no?

I think there's a key thing people are missing here. Wanda is INCREDIBLY powerful. But she still has the reactions and reflexes of a normal human being. She almost got killed by Hawkeye for chrissakes. I don't know much about Celestials but can't they just use their godly speed to stomp her into a bloody paste before she can even think?