Originally posted by Creshosk
😄Stephen king is great, and I liked the movie adaptation too. Well . . the devils bride was always kinda weird to me. 😑
I love how he cameos in the movies though.
All things serve the beam 🙂
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, seems demi HAS replied. curious: how has she shown this irrepressible mind?
I think I mentioned this while you were typing, so you probably saw it already.
<<Just so that I'm clear - you're basing this ONLY off of the fact that Cube Beings, who are only planetary scale reality warpers, say that Celestials are more powerful, right?>>yes. again, it seems logical enough to assume. i mean, if any old reality warper could walk up and expunge them, well . . . they wouldn't be considered among the most powerful of all beings, would they?
Reality warping is like energy projection - it's a category of power, and they're not all the same, or even similar. Proteus I is a reality warper, who was limited to line of sight. His warping consisted mainly of a type of matter twisting, as opposed to changing the nature of reality itself. Jim Jaspers, Jamie Braddock, Cube Beings and Wanda all have differents reality warping power, but they all go about it differently. Braddock sees reality as a series of strings that he can pull to change. Wanda generates chaos energy that allows her to make the impossible certain. Their powers actually have nothing in common with each other, aside from the net result - which is reality being different than what it was before. And with that, comes different limitations, different scales, and different levels of effectiveness.
So just because one being has shown reality warping powers doesn't mean that its success or failure can be applied any more to any other reality warping powers. That would be like equating Galactus' eye blast with Cyclops', just because they're energy and come out their eyes. You have to go by scale - Galactus has destroyed planets with his eyeblasts. Cyclops has destroyed mountains. Therefore more authority and power must be accorded to G's eyeblasts. Likewise, Wanda changed the universe - past and present. it's on a scale beyond what any other reality warper has done. If Proteus is the Jubilee of reality warping (COME AND GIT IT, CRESH!), then Kubik is Cyclops and Wanda is Galactus. Do you agree?
you're getting rather nit-picky with this, demi. they can alter reality but NOT affect living beings? hmmm . . . if you REALLY want to get nit-picky, i suppose i could accuse wanda of not ACTUALLY being able to alter reality, but rather she can reset parts of it by variously affecting the probably of things happening and not happening.
Actually, I'd agree with that description almost 100%. Not sure if that's what you intended, though, haha.
could wanda say, change the silver surfer into a daisy? i would doubt it (but again i'm open to changing my mind because it bears repeating, i've not read hom and so don't fully know her abilities) because the chance of ss suddenly becoming a daisy is zero and hence impossible.
Chaos energy makes all things possible. Can SS become a daisy suddenly? Actually any number of matter transmuters could turn him into a daisy....making it possible for SS to turn into a daisy...making it possible for SW to make him a daisy.
Now...can Scarlet Witch make 2+2=5? Hmmmm.....
always an interesting discussion when you're around, demi. 😉
Likewise! And less essay intense, too! 🙂
Originally posted by Sir WhirlysplatYou lucky . . . 😄
I met him at a book signing 20 years ago, he signed a copy of the Talisman for me 🙂All things serve the beam 🙂
Originally posted by demigawd😂
If Proteus is the Jubilee of reality warping (COME AND GIT IT, CRESH!),
Originally posted by demigawdNow that is an entirely different discussion. 🙂
Chaos energy makes all things possible. Can SS become a daisy suddenly? Actually any number of matter transmuters could turn him into a daisy....making it possible for SS to turn into a daisy...making it possible for SW to make him a daisy.Now...can Scarlet Witch make 2+2=5? Hmmmm.....
<<Now...can Scarlet Witch make 2+2=5? Hmmmm.....>>
actually a much better example than my own. however, it's impossible for ss to become a daisy spontaneously. by your exaplanation she would need to have a transmuter change him to have him change. neither here nor there. you got my point as shown by your example. and i would say no, she couldn't make 2+2=5 because it IS impossible. for her powers to work it seems there must be a CHANCE (ie non-zero probability) of something happening.
<<Actually, I'd agree with that description almost 100%. Not sure if that's what you intended, though, haha.>>
actually, i DID intend for you to agree. just not sure what i wanted to prove bby the point! heheh
last point and this is all i've got in the proverbial celestial arsenal:
in this issue of ff#340 read what the dreaming celestial did WHILE ASLEEP. sounds like alter reality to me . . .
I don't think comparing Wanda to a Cube being is a good idea. Their powers work in completely different ways.
Cube beings reshape reality along the material lines of physics by re-arranging matter (molecules, atomic structure of matter, redefining energy signatures, etc.). Silver Surfer can effect reality the same way, just not quite to the same scope.
Wanda, on the other hand, effects reality by making quantum variants into actual outcomes. She doesn't rely on material precursors like matter and reshaping thereof, she relies solely on the underlying concepts of causality; possibility and probabilities; which are near limitless in scope. At any given point in time there are literally countless variant courses of action and reaction, and Wanda can consciously pick and choose which variant happens on a local or universal scale that would serve her purposes.
Saying that Cellestials are beyond the abilities of a Cube Being is simply saying that they can't have their material substance re-arranged in the manner of which a Cube Being does it. Cellestials themselves are high end matter manipulators and geneticists.
It does not make them immune to causality, however, just matter manipulation.
These are not Wanda's abilities.
There are very few things that are above the concepts of causality, possibility, and probability.
Basically, there are few absolutes.
Simply existing puts you under the lines of possibility, which makes you a quantum variable.
Wanda, through her own will, can make any possible outcome become reality. It's not a matter of rearranging molecules, it's a matter of altering the course of reality on a quantum level.
Originally posted by leonidas
actually a much better example than my own. however, it's impossible for ss to become a daisy spontaneously. by your exaplanation she would need to have a transmuter change him to have him change. neither here nor there. you got my point as shown by your example. and i would say no, she couldn't make 2+2=5 because it IS impossible. for her powers to work it seems there must be a CHANCE (ie non-zero probability) of something happening.
2+2=5 IS impossible. I'd say she couldn't do it.
Silver Surfer spontaneously turning into a daisy is about as unlikely as Apocalypse being brought back to life, or her having twins, or creating Layla out of thin air, all of which she did, so...
last point and this is all i've got in the proverbial celestial arsenal:in this issue of ff#340 read what the dreaming celestial did WHILE ASLEEP. sounds like alter reality to me . . .
It was explained later as a psionic alteration of a weakened Galactus' physiology, who was prone to it because he was weakened. It wasn't a shift in reality.
<<It was explained later as a psionic alteration of a weakened Galactus' physiology, who was prone to it because he was weakened. It wasn't a shift in reality.>>
really? where was this explained?
<<Simply existing puts you under the lines of possibility, which makes you a quantum variable.
Wanda, through her own will, can make any possible outcome become reality. It's not a matter of rearranging molecules, it's a matter of altering the course of reality on a quantum level.>>
that's all true, ill, but she has ALWAYS been her power. the thing that has changed is the SCOPE of her power. and that is what is in question here. has her power grown to the level where she can affect a celestial? maybe. based on all i've read here, i'd even have to say . . . probably. 😄
Originally posted by leonidas
<<It was explained later as a psionic alteration of a weakened Galactus' physiology, who was prone to it because he was weakened. It wasn't a shift in reality.>>really? where was this explained?
An issue of Silver Surfer some years later had Galactus recounting the event, and talking about how while he was recovering these ideas were planted in his head and he awoke with the need to feed on everything. He made it clear that it was more of a psyiological change than some kind of reality warping.
<<Simply existing puts you under the lines of possibility, which makes you a quantum variable.Wanda, through her own will, can make any possible outcome become reality. It's not a matter of rearranging molecules, it's a matter of altering the course of reality on a quantum level.>>
that's all true, ill, but she has ALWAYS been her power. the thing that has changed is the SCOPE of her power. and that is what is in question here. has her power grown to the level where she can affect a celestial? maybe. based on all i've read here, i'd even have to say . . . probably. 😄
Probably works for me. 😄
So it sounds like most of the major parties here agree that SW would (probably) win. Even GS agrees she could win against one Celestial, which was the revised stipulation anyway, though I personally believe that if you can summon the energies to beat one Celestial, it's not all that much more difficult to beat them all. So my guess is that the rest of this thread is going to be taken up discussing Phoenix crap. What fun.
"Reality warping is like energy projection - it's a category of power, and they're not all the same, or even similar. Proteus I is a reality warper, who was limited to line of sight. His warping consisted mainly of a type of matter twisting, as opposed to changing the nature of reality itself. Jim Jaspers, Jamie Braddock, Cube Beings and Wanda all have differents reality warping power, but they all go about it differently. Braddock sees reality as a series of strings that he can pull to change. Wanda generates chaos energy that allows her to make the impossible certain. Their powers actually have nothing in common with each other, aside from the net result - which is reality being different than what it was before. And with that, comes different limitations, different scales, and different levels of effectiveness."
I was under the impression that the amount of energy she manipulates is quite finite, but she has power over contigency and there for its nearly limitless. 🙂
Originally posted by Fishy 500
Lost in translation i believe ? 😉
Nah, I see what you're saying...I just have no numbers to show how much chaos energy exists for her to command. Maybe the amount of chaos energy is finite...maybe not. No idea.
But I agree with the spirit of what you're saying. Controlling causality gives you power over infinity, since everything that is, has cause and effect. In that sense, the amount of causal/chaos energy is functionally irrelevant.
Originally posted by demigawd
Nah, I see what you're saying...I just have no numbers to show how much chaos energy exists for her to command. Maybe the amount of chaos energy is finite...maybe not. No idea.But I agree with the spirit of what you're saying. Controlling causality gives you power over infinity, since everything that is, has cause and effect. In that sense, the amount of causal/chaos energy is functionally irrelevant.
Except the 'un moved mover' which G.S. would argue is the actual phoenix force !
You know, I have some of the deepest conversations on physics and philosophy that I've ever had on here, discussing fictional characters and storylines, than I've ever had with my friends here in real life.
I want to thank ya'll for that.
It's really a trip some of the things we discuss, in such detail and scope, and yet in reality, it has no essential value whatsoever because it's all fiction.
It's very special to be able to have such drawn out, compelling, insightful, and thought provoking, yet undeniably futile conversations.
It's a good workout for the brain.
Originally posted by illadelph12
You know, I have some of the deepest conversations on physics and philosophy that I've ever had on here, discussing fictional characters and storylines, than I've ever had with my friends here in real life.I want to thank ya'll for that.
It's really a trip some of the things we discuss, in such detail and scope, and yet in reality, it has no essential value whatsoever because it's all fiction.
It's very special to be able to have such drawn out, compelling, insightful, and thought provoking, yet undeniably futile conversations.
It's a good workout for the brain.
Agreed, which is why I'm a sucker for this forum .... I'm such a geek at heart, and yet i refuse to let this persona express itself in the real world. This is one of the main problems with alchohol, as very few people share my rather anorachy PO V's. Mate there are loads on here who love similar discussions. My favourites have been with the likes of Whirly, Cosmic Cube, Steve Rules and Mind sip. The latter is the only one quite on the same level of geeky ness as I. 🙂