Scarlet Witch vs the Celestials?

Originally posted by illadelph12
You know, I have some of the deepest conversations on physics and philosophy that I've ever had on here, discussing fictional characters and storylines, than I've ever had with my friends here in real life.

I want to thank ya'll for that.

It's really a trip some of the things we discuss, in such detail and scope, and yet in reality, it has no essential value whatsoever because it's all fiction.

It's very special to be able to have such drawn out, compelling, insightful, and thought provoking, yet undeniably futile conversations.

It's a good workout for the brain.

it IS fun, isn't it. it's also funny -- i'm also a bit of a sports nut and listen to talk radio often. when someone raises a point a disagree with, it is hilarious how i form arguments now in my brain. the forum material itself may often be inconsequential, but i've actually found some practical uses outside the material in the real world. it's helped me practice . . . organizing and formalizing my thoughts a little better, i think.

it cracks me up when i read others dissing the site and saying everyone is an idiot. apparently, they just don't know who to debate with or where to find the good threads! 😄

i AM curious about that issue of ss, demi. i've a large collection of ss and as long as it didn't happen TOO recently i should have the book. funny that i don't remember it though. maybe it WAS more current? kg, any idea what issue he's talking about?

Originally posted by leonidas
maybe it WAS more current? kg, any idea what issue he's talking about?

Demi what issue?

i recall that issue as well. dc was only in a very ltd # of books. pretty sure whatever demi's talking about it didn't happen in a ss comic.

I'm pretty sure it was a SS comic. The DC didn't appear in it...it was a line about how he remembered having thoughts planted in his head making him want to consume the universe. It was a clear reference to what happened to him during that DC storyline. It's also what led directly to the revelation that Galactus is capable of consuming the universe, but chooses not to. It was a long time ago, so I'd have to look it up.

a long time ago, eh. then i must have the book. i'll do some checking as well. you sure it wasn't in galactus the devourer? i don't recall it from there either though . . .

Originally posted by demigawd
Hm, let's see:

Hawkeye is an expert marksman
Hawkeye says in HoM 6, "I'm going to kill her"
Hawkeye shoots her THROUGH THE HEART with an arrow
Wanda is completely still in a pool of blood
Wanda asks without a hint of pain in her voice, "Why did you do that?"
Wanda pops back up, the arrow goes away and she's in a totally different position one panel later
Hawkeyes SAYS he was trying to kill her, or at least get her to come to her senses - hence the deathblow

I don't know how much more proof you need. You remind me of Dave Chappelle at the R. Kelly trial

"He needs to be singing while peeing on the girl, while holding up his ID, with his mother standing there and a police officer present to positively identify him. Otherwise...that ain't him!"

Demi, this is just your interpretation of the event. Its not definitive as its not supported anywhere else and its not supported conclusively in the scene itself. Therefore you cant make such a claim in this debate. Simple as.

For all we know Wanda wasnt killed instantly and she negated the effects of the arrow. Unless Hawkeyes arrows are at least 3 foot long it never penetrated really deeply and in any event such an attack wouldnt kill you instantly anyway. You have no conclusive evidence to claim as fact in this debate that Wanda is beyond physical death understand that. In the future you may have what you need to support your case or we get on panel evidence which discredits it. Either way what you have here isnt enough im afraid. Wanda can die physically.

Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda summoned DORMAMMU and used his power. You don't think she can summon hyperspatial energy?

I never said she couldnt do that. Read again.

However would she know to do that? Does she know the Celestials that well?

Originally posted by demigawd
Fight over. Discussion over, really.

Until you have more than unsupported opinion. Far from it.

Originally posted by demigawd
No, she sealed the breach. See that crack in the background? That's the breach. She stemmed the tide of the chaos wave long enough to seal the breach...but as we know, she was vulnerable to Wanda's Chaos power

Meggan did not seal the breach. Also now i think about. If the chaos wave was generated by Wanda (as has yet to be proven) why was it on a collision course with 616? Considering Wandas motives for creating house of M in the first place, does that make sense to you?

Also by sealing the breach the problem of the chaos wave was solved. Which suggests that it stemmed from the breach between realities anyway and was not generated by Wanda, which again has far from been proven.

Originally posted by demigawd
Chaos MAGIC was dismissed by Strange as not existing...but the fact that chaos energy was magical in nature was always speculation anyway. What IS real is chaos energy, as Templar and Pagan proved. The belief was that Wanda's chaos power was magical in nature. Strange dismissed it...it's causal in nature. But that doesn't mean that there's no chaos energy, just that it's not magical. You're reading too much into that line. So the point still stands...Wanda created the CHAOS wave with CHAOS energy that she's always had at her command since the time she created HEXES that caused....CHAOS.

No Demi you're reading too much into the monicker "chaos wave".

The only reason you believe it was generated by Wanda is because its called chaos wave. That is insufficient evidence Demi. Its really not good enough you need to accept that. It was described by Roma in a way that suggests more that it was triggered by the alteration of 616. Nowhere in the entire house of M series and all titles connected with it is the chaos wave attributed to Wanda. Yeah she definitely triggered it. But nowhere does it say or is made out that she generated it. After describing the waves origins like that she went on to describe how if it reaches other realities it will collapse them and bring an end to concepts such as order. Hence its monicker. Not because its derived from Wanda.

Wanda doesnt even tap into chaos energies, she is a reality warper. Avengers Dis made that quite clear:

Wanda by all accounts was said to tap into chaos energies she called her "chaos magiks". Dr S retcons such energies out of Marvel by saying theres no such thing and says instead shes a reality warper. How ridiculous a stance to take Demi.

"Oh he said chaos magicks but thats cool because she taps into chaos energies instead."

Rubbish!!!!

Originally posted by demigawd
A vast assortment of beings can seal the breach she accidentally opened. Bully for them! See what happens if she decides to PURPOSELY rip the whole thing open.

Ummm then they'd just seal it again. 🙄 😱

[QUOTE=5470786]Originally posted by demigawd
[B] Again with the irony!

So are you telling me that Wanda's power poses no treat to the universe? Are you saying Roma was exaggerating? Is that what you're saying? Because if you're not saying it...then what ARE you saying? Abstracts get involved sometimes, but Roma is the OMNIVERSAL guardian for a reason...she guards the omniverse. If she's worried about Wanda, it's because the omniverse is threatened. It couldn't possibly be more straightforward than that. [/B][/QUOTE]

You said:

it's the nature of the business. But it wasn't sudden. She was always hinted at having the potential back when she created her children. During Busiek's run, she became second only to Thor in power....and growing. Her alternation of 616 and her Chaos Wave that destroyed several UNIVERSES show the level of power she has reached. She threatens all of creation....including the Ascension (seat of God). [/B][/QUOTE]

I replied with:

Far from it Demi. She altered 616 and triggered a chaos wave. Nowhere does it state she generated it only states it was the result of the alteration of 616. When you have some proof you can use the chaos wave as a feat. No the chaos wave didnt destroy universes. Where did you get that from? It reached Otherworld mate but thats it. You think differently then come up wit the goods. Either way its irrelevant the chaos wave was topped by Meggan so truthfully the ascension was never in any danger.[/B][/QUOTE]

You're still posting on the assumption that Wanda actually generated the chaos wave. Dont. You dont have sufficient proof.

You also said that the wave destroyed universes. That was either a poor recollection or a lie. It didnt. Yes it could have potentially but it didnt.

Roma didnt give a sh*t about what Wanda had done to 616 all she cared about was the wave which was triggered off by Wandas amateur tamperings. So no Roma wasnt exaggerating about the threat that the WAVE could potentially do. But yeah Wanda didnt get a single mention. If the wave was a manifestation of Wandas you'd think Roma would take action to or at least tell the heroes to take her out instead of just telling them to seal the breach. Which would of cause leave Wanda free to do it again. That would be like leaving a bath running causing a flood and then trying to fix the problem not by turning off the tap but instead by scooping the water up with buckets. Does that make sense to you?

Wandas actions triggered the wave.

Originally posted by demigawd
Where was Phoenix when Thanos had the HOTU? He's less of a threat than cosmic bacteria?

Wasnt in her jurisdiction for all we know. Her non appearance says nothing when beings we know who are less powerful were present. Where was LT when the M'kraan threatened to blink out existence? Not his jurisdiction.

Phoenix deals with the creation cycle. More specifically evolution. Sublime threatened evolution across the multiverse, evolution is the key to the creation cycle and therefore Sublime was important Phoenix work

Originally posted by demigawd
You mean the images of an alternate reality Rogue changing and intersecting with other alternate reality Rogues isn't evidence of multiversal effects? Pah!

The contemplator can do the same thing according to his bio and he's just an Elder. Contemplator can view images of alternate realities and can even travel to and from them. Is that or your feat multiversal power? Certainly not. Pah indeed.

Originally posted by demigawd
That they understand the nature of the universe well enough to teach him how to apply his powers. You don't have to have the same abilities as someone to teach how they to use their powers well. Last I checked, Xavier didn't have wings, couldn't fire optic blasts, didn't create ice and isn't super agile. But he was best qualified to show them how to use their powers correctly and responsibly.

Either way you have no proof that Wanda is beyond physical death. With that in mind against a race of Celestials she dies.

Originally posted by demigawd
Correct. It's a mentally based power. The point is moot anyway - there are no quotes or anything to show that he is capable of greater feats. And more importantly....nothing to show that the Celestials are capable of doing the same thing. They STRUGGLED to undo it! If they were remotely capable of even pocket universal power, they wouldn't have to resort to such lame tactics as throwing planets to fight Thanos.

Hardly a lame tactic. Throwing a planet probably requires far more energy than warping reality on a planet. Either way without proof Wandas very much dead.

Originally posted by demigawd
Most of your other posts are just rehashes of the same stuff, but some miscellaneous points:

YOU said she did. You said she was needed elsewhere, so she "let" herself die. Otherwise, there's no way Magneto could have killed her, right? Or are you changing your story....again?

And most of your case is based on unsupported opinion.

I did say that but does that mean that she has to die to be elsewhere? No it does not.

Originally posted by demigawd
Because Sinister MADE it happen. And because the timeline for already fixed. Remember Jafph's (I can NEVER spell his name right) words - unless the timeline is fixed, Phoenix can never repair the Crystal. The recurring theme here is that Phoenix always needs a catalyst. If you want to beat Phoenix, prevent that catalyst.

But you wouldnt beat Phoenix because the avatars are always Phoenixes they just dont know it until their power is required or until their rebirth following a death. So preventing the catalyst would just be prolonging the inevitable. Also if phoenix work was required then as per current continuity the hosts would realise their potential. What you need to remember when looking back at the original AOA is that it was written at the time when phoenix was a seperate cosmic entity as opposed to the avatars themselves who've reached the stage ofultimare mutation. Therefore using that to support your case against current cont phoenix is futile.

Originally posted by demigawd
Wow...that's quite a twist on facts. She won ONLY because he exausted his energy supplies, as he proceeded to explain to her, which of course freaked her out and caused her to flee. It was basically a stalemate until that point.

Not at all, i can post the fight if you'd like. She didnt want to fight him and apologised for hurting him after she destroyed his machine. He attacked her. All his attacks were blocked on a whim whilst her attacks caused him to cry out in pain. He eventually collapsed in a heap saying he had run out of energy and then told Phoenix of her true nature making her leave in shame.

Originally posted by demigawd
No shit! The only problem with your post is that it doesn't in any way, shape or form address my point - that the kneeling was visualization only, and nothing that actually happened.

Which i didnt and have never denied. You however seemed to bypass the crux of the matter which is that the replacement of the abstracts and LT happens naturally anyway via the Phoenix power. Stranger just wanted it to happen on his terms so he sought to use the power to bring that about hence the visualisation. The fact that the abstracts were concerned and intervened tells you that the visualisation was indeed likely if Stranger tapped into the Force via Jean.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I don't think comparing Wanda to a Cube being is a good idea. Their powers work in completely different ways.

Cube beings reshape reality along the material lines of physics by re-arranging matter (molecules, atomic structure of matter, redefining energy signatures, etc.). Silver Surfer can effect reality the same way, just not quite to the same scope.

Wanda, on the other hand, effects reality by making quantum variants into actual outcomes. She doesn't rely on material precursors like matter and reshaping thereof, she relies solely on the underlying concepts of causality; possibility and probabilities; which are near limitless in scope. At any given point in time there are literally countless variant courses of action and reaction, and Wanda can consciously pick and choose which variant happens on a local or universal scale that would serve her purposes.

Saying that Cellestials are beyond the abilities of a Cube Being is simply saying that they can't have their material substance re-arranged in the manner of which a Cube Being does it. Cellestials themselves are high end matter manipulators and geneticists.

It does not make them immune to causality, however, just matter manipulation.

These are not Wanda's abilities.

There are very few things that are above the concepts of causality, possibility, and probability.

Basically, there are few absolutes.

Simply existing puts you under the lines of possibility, which makes you a quantum variable.

Wanda, through her own will, can make any possible outcome become reality. It's not a matter of rearranging molecules, it's a matter of altering the course of reality on a quantum level.

True indeed. Ill. But what you need to remember is that while the potential of Wandas abilities are virtually unlimited her ability to realise and apply them is not. Her range hasnt been shown to exceed universal level, she is limited by her knowledge and imagination and on top of that until proven wrong she is still human she has limits. Applying her power will take its toll physically. Especially at the levels she'd need to take out beings like the Celestials or greater.

A being whose nature isnt determined by any of the factors within Wandas range (so far universe spanning) will not be troubled by Wanda. Multiversal beings such as LT, Phoenix, Pre retcon Beyonder and so on will not be troubled by her. If she was a threat to them or the multiverse they would have intervened .

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Multiversal beings such as LT, Phoenix, Pre retcon Beyonder and so on will not be troubled by her. If she was a threat to them or the multiverse they would have intervened .

Indeed she is powerful, extremely powerful, but she is pretty much insect to them.

i must congratulate GS on increasing the average length of a post on the comic book forums from 3 - 6 lines to to 2-3 pages while still proving no point whatsoever.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i must congratulate GS on increasing the average length of a post on the comic book forums from 3 - 6 lines to to 2-3 pages while still proving no point whatsoever.

Says the bitter illiterate who jumps on the bandwagon of anything remotely anti GS/Phoenix in an effort to get his own back for past humiliation.

Post something of note and then feel free to criticise.

Until then SHHHHHH!!!

I think i proved my point quite well actually. 😄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
True indeed. Ill. But what you need to remember is that while the potential of Wandas abilities are virtually unlimited her ability to realise and apply them is not. Her range hasnt been shown to exceed universal level, she is limited by her knowledge and imagination and on top of that until proven wrong she is still human she has limits. Applying her power will take its toll physically. Especially at the levels she'd need to take out beings like the Celestials or greater.

A being whose nature isnt determined by any of the factors within Wandas range (so far universe spanning) will not be troubled by Wanda. Multiversal beings such as LT, Phoenix, Pre retcon Beyonder and so on will not be troubled by her. If she was a threat to them or the multiverse they would have intervened .

Sup GS.

I mentioned the multiversal/beyond concept angle in an earlier post (where I mentioned LT, Anomally, etc.). I'm not so sure Pre-Retcon Beyonder was above causality though. He seemed near omnipotent, but some of his actions in the Secret Wars make him seem very susceptible to probability. He's still a variable in numerous quantum outcomes. Hell, his coming into the 616 reality was a probabilty.

The Phoenix Force is kind of a gray area.

By it's nature, it's an absolute, but due to the fact TOAA did not have to create but chose to create, it's existence is also a choice, and a variable, so it is subject to causality. Not to mention how other beings besides avatars and hosts have either wielded or procured the power, it does seem inherrently susceptible to chance. Jean being one with the force is also susceptible to probability. It is possible that Jean isn't the true avatar of the Phoenix Force, or that the Force could simply leave her in a "Jggg" state (sorry, couldn't resist), or that somehow if the two (Wanda and Jean) were to engage in combat the fight would be deemed as not official Phoenix work by the Crown and Jean was left vulnerable due to acting out of duty.

Basically, so long as a character's story can be re-written, Scarlet Witch has leverage.

That's why I consider her abilities a loophole.

Your point about her only being human and having limitations, as well as fatiguing, while valid, are also moot points given the fact that through her powers Wanda can go beyond or all out negate her human limitations.

That is a possibility, afterall.

It's possible to exert yourself and not fatigue.

It's possible to take out an opponent in one action.

It's possible to fire a gun at point blank range and miss.

Her powers are making possibilities into reality by shere will.

It would only take a moment for her to make herself completely invulnerable to any form of attack the Cellestials', or anyone else in creation for that matter, could pose because, well, it's a possibility.

It's possible Wanda could be invulnerable to anything Cellestial based, from energy attacks to being stomped on repeatedly by Exitar, or that the Cellestials are allergic to Wanda and die upon contact, just like it's possible I could wake up tomorrow and be allergic to creamy chicken flavored Top Ramen and Ritz crackers.

It doesn't take a great span of time to go from one quantum contingency to another. All it takes is an action.

All it takes is a possibility.

Good morning, by the way. (I'm in California)

Most of what you wrote rehashes what we've been going over in circles about. I feel no need to re-visit it. If you don't want to believe that Hawkeye killed Wanda and that the scene was very clearly meant to show that she's beyond death, that's on you. I assure you that you're in the minority. I just think it's silly to demand FURTHER proof when you KNOW that it's just happened last month, so further proof doesn't exist. Reminds me of an old Dilbert cartoon

"I demand 15 years of Java experience to hire anybody"
"Java hasn't even existed for 15 years!"
"Well then, I guess we won't be hiring anybody, will we?"

Pah.

However would she know to do that? Does she know the Celestials that well?

Hello? Avenger! Massive database shared with other superhero teams? They all know about each other's rogues.

Meggan did not seal the breach. Also now i think about. If the chaos wave was generated by Wanda (as has yet to be proven) why was it on a collision course with 616? Considering Wandas motives for creating house of M in the first place, does that make sense to you?

It wasn't...it was eminating outward and threatening to destroy OTHER realities (ultimately including its own). If it were heading TO 616, then it would have destroyed it and the breach, and there wouldn't have been any other problem, would there?

Also by sealing the breach the problem of the chaos wave was solved. Which suggests that it stemmed from the breach between realities anyway and was not generated by Wanda, which again has far from been proven.

Which I proved conclusively to everybody but you, but you don't count anyway. 😛

And it didn't solve the problem of the chaos wave....it sealed the breach that was causing the chaos wave to extend to other realities and cause all probablilties to collapse into itself, as represented by the various alternate reality characters transforming from the chaos wave. Roma wasn't concerned about what was happening to 616...she was concerned about what was going to happen to the omniverse, being, you know, the omniversal guardian and all. That's hardly a countering of Wanda's power.

No Demi you're reading too much into the monicker "chaos wave".

You're not reading enough into it. Chaos magic, chaos energy, hexes that create chaos....chaos wave.

The only reason you believe it was generated by Wanda is because its called chaos wave. That is insufficient evidence Demi. Its really not good enough you need to accept that. It was described by Roma in a way that suggests more that it was triggered by the alteration of 616. Nowhere in the entire house of M series and all titles connected with it is the chaos wave attributed to Wanda. Yeah she definitely triggered it. But nowhere does it say or is made out that she generated it. After describing the waves origins like that she went on to describe how if it reaches other realities it will collapse them and bring an end to concepts such as order. Hence its monicker. Not because its derived from Wanda.

Its not just because of the name. It's because, as I talked about before and you completely ignored, open doorways between realities have always existed and remained open, usually in the arctic, the swamps, and the savage land, and it didn't generate a chaos wave. The reason why THIS is different is because it's Wanda's. Because her universal-scale probability-altering power is leaking through the breach and because there's no intent behind those chaos waves, it's causing randomized destruction. Simple as that.

Wanda doesnt even tap into chaos energies, she is a reality warper. Avengers Dis made that quite clear:

Showing your lack of understanding of your own scans....again. The whole reason why Dr. Strange said that chaos magic doesn't exist is because Warbird ASKED him to use his magic to make things right. They said, "Well, if it's magic that's doing this, surely you can do something else". Strange replied that he couldn't undo it because it's NOT magical in nature. There's no such thing as chaos magic. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the chaos energy that she was proven to generate when she fought Templar and his crew. She just THOUGHT it was magical in nature. She was wrong. So this wasn't a retcon of chaos energy....it's a correction of Wanda's theory about what her power is.

Know this - Reality warping is a category of power. It's not a power itself. Each reality warper uses different mechanics. She employs chaos energy to affect probabilities on a universal scale...she makes the impossible certain. THAT is how her reality-warping works.

Ummm then they'd just seal it again. 🙄 😱

They'd all be dead before they had the opportunity. And how do you seal something that's been destroyed entirely?

You also said that the wave destroyed universes. That was either a poor recollection or a lie. It didnt. Yes it could have potentially but it didnt.

You didn't see the effect Wanda's chaos wave was having on other universes? Look again, and pay attention to the alternate reality characters falling all over the place....it was weaking havoc.

Roma didnt give a sh*t about what Wanda had done to 616 all she cared about was the wave which was triggered off by Wandas amateur tamperings. So no Roma wasnt exaggerating about the threat that the WAVE could potentially do. But yeah Wanda didnt get a single mention. If the wave was a manifestation of Wandas you'd think Roma would take action to or at least tell the heroes to take her out instead of just telling them to seal the breach.

Because she knew that Wanda is beyond physical death. 😛

More proof for me!

Phoenix deals with the creation cycle. More specifically evolution. Sublime threatened evolution across the multiverse, evolution is the key to the creation cycle and therefore Sublime was important Phoenix work

And how does Sublime pose any threat to the MULTIVERSE?

One would think that the threat of collapsing all of creation into a blob of nothingness would, I dunno, put a little crimp on evolution. Little one.

The contemplator can do the same thing according to his bio and he's just an Elder. Contemplator can view images of alternate realities and can even travel to and from them.

Oh good, so he'd be able to see all of the havoc Wanda's chaos wave was wreaking in other realities! Thanks for the info!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Either way you have no proof that Wanda is beyond physical death. With that in mind against a race of Celestials she dies.

You can choose to believe whatever you want. I've provided more than sufficient proof. I won't revisit this.

Hardly a lame tactic. Throwing a planet probably requires far more energy than warping reality on a planet. Either way without proof Wandas very much dead.

Indeed. Unfortunately for you..I've provided tons of proof. Everybody recognizes this but you. I wonder why? My guess is because it's a threat to your precious Phoenix.

I did say that but does that mean that she has to die to be elsewhere? No it does not.

😱 😂 😂

So I guess she just dies for her health, huh? Maybe she likes getting "jgg"y with it....

But you wouldnt beat Phoenix because the avatars are always Phoenixes they just dont know it until their power is required or until their rebirth following a death. So preventing the catalyst would just be prolonging the inevitable. Also if phoenix work was required then as per current continuity the hosts would realise their potential. What you need to remember when looking back at the original AOA is that it was written at the time when phoenix was a seperate cosmic entity as opposed to the avatars themselves who've reached the stage ofultimare mutation. Therefore using that to support your case against current cont phoenix is futile.

Funny how you get to pick and choose Phoenix showings that are most flattering to your convoluted theories. The truth is....(and cover your ears Xplosive) there WAS no retcon. Everything makes perfect sense. the Phoenix Force was ALWAYS seen as a force of creation. Jean Grey was ALWAYS separate from the Phoenix Force...and still is. She just has the inborn ability to tap into its power. But she can die and be defeated like anybody else. That's always been true and never been changed. The only thing that was subject to a retcon was whether Jean's physical body was used as the Phoenix avatar or whether it made a copy of her body and personality and put Jean in hibernation. That's it. Everything else is totally consistent and never subject to confusion, controversy or clarification. Your retcons are imaginary.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

I think i proved my point quite well actually. 😄

Well that makes one person who thinks so. 😎

Originally posted by demigawd
Well that makes one person who thinks so. 😎

exactly 🙂