OK, Burton is a moron when it comes to Batman...

Originally posted by Bat Dude
Yet Nolan's Batman can leave Ras on a train to die, even through the whole movie he preaches (even to Ras himself) that no one is beyond saving. If Batman killed Penguin and Joker, then he also killed Ras Al Ghul and Two-Face. Not to mention the fake Ras and all the ninjas in the monastery...

Burton's Batman only killed once. The Axis Chemical scene (when he destroyed the supply of toxins with the bomb) And even then, I don't think he WANTED to kill those guys. He was trying to stop the flow of chemicals into the city. Was it extreme? Hell yeah, but Batman is an extreme measure, himself. He needed to do SOMETHING. Every other time is left very ambiguous, leaving it up to interpretation.

-Joker himself: Yes, he said he was going to, but, in reality, he didn't. He tied his leg to a gargoyle, a gargoyle that wasn't going to budge until Joker tried to escape. He easily could have let go of the ladder, and he'd still be alive at the end of the movie. Batman and Vicki would have fallen, been saved by a Batrope in the knick of time, and the cops would have apprehended Joker before Batman could do anything. And by that time, I think Bruce would have realized he didn't need to kill him, anyway. He'd have been locked away. Justice would have been served. It's not like he pulled out a gun and killed him. So Joker's death really isn't Batman's fault, it's Joker's own fault.

-The Fire Breather: There was snow everywhere. There is no proof that the person died, and again, they could just stop, drop, and roll. Was it an extreme measure? Yeah, but Batman himself is an extreme measure. This guy didn't die.

-The Strongman: I personally believe it was a fake bomb. When it goes off, you can see smoke and a little confetti coming out of the hole. And not to mention they were a gang of circus performers and clowns. Is it so difficult to believe that the bomb was not real, since it was strapped to one of them and they were a gang with a circus motif? It easily could have just been theatrics. Again, no actual proof of death, meaning it's up for interpretation (which is something Burton loves to do with his films, make the watcher decide what certain things mean)

-The Penguin: Batman tricked him with the remote control, but I don't think his reason was to kill Penguin. I think he planned to use the bats to stun him (like they were used in Batman Begins). It ended up being fatal because of where the two were positioned. If Penguin wasn't so close to the window, he would not have died, I can guarantee that.

thats grasping at straws.the only ONE good point you made is that he left him on the train after saying that no man is above saving.I have never disagreed with you on that.I have never said that Nolans Batman movies were perfect.Just far more loyal to the source material.Yes Batman should have saved him. no question about that.Thats what the Batman from the comics would do but it was acceptable for him to not try and save him because Ras is no normal person.Unlike The Joker,he finds clever ways to survive things like that.after all he was Batmans mentor that taught him everything remember? Huge difference between not saving someone and committing murder like Batman did with The Jokers goons and causing the death of the joker like he did. 🙄

Batman should know that The Joker is too stupid and too arrogant to let go of the ladder.Batman killed him by firing that batarang at him.He could have let him go and used his bat computers to track him down later easily.He caused the jokers death and should have been put behind bars for it regardless of the jokers past actions.especially for committing murder of the jokers goons.I already explained how he could EASILY have taken out the jokers goons without killing them.

we already been through that before,there is NO EVIDENCE that he killed any of those ninjas in the monestary. 🙄 the only evidence there is is that he hurt them some because we saw their shirts on fire after the explosion.and you seem to be forgetting that it was all on a cold mountain full fo snow to where they could roll around on and get the fire off their clothes. 😂 Also Batmans life was in just as much danger as theirs was.even more so in the fact that he was one of the last people out the monastery.they all had a head start on him.Batmans life was never even in danger at the axis chemical plant.poor comparison.Its so obvious he wanted to kill them.dropping a bomb like that in front of them like that? give me a break.

you just shot yourself in the foot with the snow argument right there on the ninjas. 😆 again thats grasping at straws because they guu was only a few feet away from him when he turned around and shot his after burners on him like the coward he was in those films. 🙄 even if he did put himself out with the snow,give me a break,that was enough to physically scar the man for life and be in severe pain the rest of his life as well. 🙄

again thats grasping at straws saying it was a fake bomb.the way this batman of Burtons seems to enjoy committing murder or causing them pain for life,i seriously doubt that.also your the ONLY person i have EVER heard go those extremes on that.

batman could have figured out a way to capture penguin without killing him.your also forgetting that he threw that guy in the belltower down to the bottom.a fall THAT steep on concrete? He's dead or seriously crippled for life and that was totally unnessary for him to do that. as far as harvey dent goes from the dark knight? I already have said I will be pissed as hell that he really turns out to be dead. 😠 that would be a MAJOR mistake by Nolan if he has killed off Dent.That would be every bit as stupid as Burton having the joker killed.I wont like that movie near as much as I do if it turns out that Dent really is dead. 😠 I dont think he is though.I cant imiagine Nolan being an idiot like Burton and Schumacher.Thats a Burton/schumacher thing to do.Not a Nolan thing to do.

you just need to face it and come to grips with it that Burton is a moron when it comes to Batman movies and his movies are a disgrace to the comicbooks.

Originally posted by spidermanrocks
This guy did a great job on explaining why the "he killed in the early comics" thing is not an excuse for Batman to kill in Burton's films:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMlRa7ySWio

this guy is cool. 😎 He totally schooled the Burton Batman lovers fanboys MAJOR BIG TIME right there!!!!! 💃

The logic of the Burton Batman lovers that cracks me up is they always say Batman carried a gun in the beginning and killed people.well to THEIR logic then,the Burton Batman movies REALLY disgraced the comicbooks then because he did NOT carry a gun in those movies and did not kill people with one.By the time Batman STOPPED carrying a gun,thats when he transformed himself into the Batman we all know who hates to take a life and wont kill his enemys.so to THEIR logic,these movies disgraced the comicbook MAJOR BIG TIME even more wo if they are going to use that laughable argument. 😆 😆 😂 🤣

Originally posted by Mr Parker
thats grasping at straws.the only ONE good point you made is that he left him on the train after saying that no man is above saving.I have never disagreed with you on that.I have never said that Nolans Batman movies were perfect.Just far more loyal to the source material.Yes Batman should have saved him. no question about that.Thats what the Batman from the comics would do but it was acceptable for him to not try and save him because Ras is no normal person.Unlike The Joker,he finds clever ways to survive things like that.after all he was Batmans mentor that taught him everything remember? Huge difference between not saving someone and committing murder like Batman did with The Jokers goons and causing the death of the joker like he did. 🙄

Batman should know that The Joker is too stupid and too arrogant to let go of the ladder.Batman killed him by firing that batarang at him.He could have let him go and used his bat computers to track him down later easily.He caused the jokers death and should have been put behind bars for it regardless of the jokers past actions.especially for committing murder of the jokers goons.I already explained how he could EASILY have taken out the jokers goons without killing them.

we already been through that before,there is NO EVIDENCE that he killed any of those ninjas in the monestary. 🙄 the only evidence there is is that he hurt them some because we saw their shirts on fire after the explosion.and you seem to be forgetting that it was all on a cold mountain full fo snow to where they could roll around on and get the fire off their clothes. 😂 Also Batmans life was in just as much danger as theirs was.even more so in the fact that he was one of the last people out the monastery.they all had a head start on him.Batmans life was never even in danger at the axis chemical plant.poor comparison.Its so obvious he wanted to kill them.dropping a bomb like that in front of them like that? give me a break.

you just shot yourself in the foot with the snow argument right there on the ninjas. 😆 again thats grasping at straws because they guu was only a few feet away from him when he turned around and shot his after burners on him like the coward he was in those films. 🙄 even if he did put himself out with the snow,give me a break,that was enough to physically scar the man for life and be in severe pain the rest of his life as well. 🙄

again thats grasping at straws saying it was a fake bomb.the way this batman of Burtons seems to enjoy committing murder or causing them pain for life,i seriously doubt that.also your the ONLY person i have EVER heard go those extremes on that.

batman could have figured out a way to capture penguin without killing him.your also forgetting that he threw that guy in the belltower down to the bottom.a fall THAT steep on concrete? He's dead or seriously crippled for life and that was totally unnessary for him to do that. as far as harvey dent goes from the dark knight? I already have said I will be pissed as hell that he really turns out to be dead. 😠 that would be a MAJOR mistake by Nolan if he has killed off Dent.That would be every bit as stupid as Burton having the joker killed.I wont like that movie near as much as I do if it turns out that Dent really is dead. 😠 I dont think he is though.I cant imiagine Nolan being an idiot like Burton and Schumacher.Thats a Burton/schumacher thing to do.Not a Nolan thing to do.

you just need to face it and come to grips with it that Burton is a moron when it comes to Batman movies and his movies are a disgrace to the comicbooks.

Batman didn't try to kill Penguin! It was because of where the two were positioned. The bats were probably supposed to be used the same way they were used in Batman Begins. If Penguin was where Batman was positioned and vice-versa, he would not have died in that movie. He'd have fallen on the floor and been subdued. Again, it's not Batman's fault Penguin was next to the window when he himself pressed the button on the remote.

I'll give you the guy in the bell tower. That one I'm not sure about. So it's two kills: The Axis Chemicals scene and the Bell Tower scene.

While I agree that Batman underestimated Joker's arrogance and lunacy, I don't think Batman did that with the intent of killing him LIKE THAT. Again, Joker sealed his own fate here. I can guarantee he'd have lived through the film had he let go of the ladder. Batman wouldn't have been able to get to him.

Is it that hard to believe that the bomb may have been fake? They were CIRCUS PERFORMERS, CLOWNS, AND SHOWMEN. They made a living off of theatrics. I don't think that clown who had it strapped to himself would have just blown himself up. They were all cowards (evidenced by their reaction to Batman's imminent arrival in the climax of the movie) so I don't think he was on a suicide mission. Just using context clues...

Like I said, is using the flame on that guy extreme? Yeah, but Batman himself is extreme. Frank Miller's Batman would have done the same thing, and that's the Batman Burton used as his biggest influence (along with those 1930s comics you guys keep lambasting him for using). That guy didn't die.

So I take it you don't like Elseworlds comics, because they aren't "true" to the source material? This movie is in the same vein as those Elseworlds comics.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
Batman didn't try to kill Penguin! It was because of where the two were positioned. The bats were probably supposed to be used the same way they were used in Batman Begins. If Penguin was where Batman was positioned and vice-versa, he would not have died in that movie. He'd have fallen on the floor and been subdued. Again, it's not Batman's fault Penguin was next to the window when he himself pressed the button on the remote.

I'll give you the guy in the bell tower. That one I'm not sure about. So it's two kills: The Axis Chemicals scene and the Bell Tower scene.

While I agree that Batman underestimated Joker's arrogance and lunacy, I don't think Batman did that with the intent of killing him LIKE THAT. Again, Joker sealed his own fate here. I can guarantee he'd have lived through the film had he let go of the ladder. Batman wouldn't have been able to get to him.

Is it that hard to believe that the bomb may have been fake? They were CIRCUS PERFORMERS, CLOWNS, AND SHOWMEN. They made a living off of theatrics. I don't think that clown who had it strapped to himself would have just blown himself up. They were all cowards (evidenced by their reaction to Batman's imminent arrival in the climax of the movie) so I don't think he was on a suicide mission. Just using context clues...

Like I said, is using the flame on that guy extreme? Yeah, but Batman himself is extreme. Frank Miller's Batman would have done the same thing, and that's the Batman Burton used as his biggest influence (along with those 1930s comics you guys keep lambasting him for using). That guy didn't die.

So I take it you don't like Elseworlds comics, because they aren't "true" to the source material? This movie is in the same vein as those Elseworlds comics.

forget frank miller,this Batman is suppose to be based of the original comics.Im not a fan of Millers Batman at all and that was cowardly and murderous of him to do that to him.i hated batman so much in those movies I wanted him to die.again i hated it that he wasnt wanted for murder of the joker at the end,that was NOT believeable!!!!!! thats why I loved Begins was it WAS believeable. He didnt kill anybody in those movies yet he was STILL wanted by the police.THATS realisitc. only idiot Frank Millers Batman is extreme,not the one from the origianl comics. and I dont give a shit about this elseworld comiocs thing cause i dont even know who that it or what your talking about.

If Burton want to do a superhero movie about a villain cowardly killing people,make a james bond flick,its acceptable for HIM to do it,not Batman.Bond has a licence to kill so those Burton films SHOULD have been called James Bond NOT Batman. 🙄

using those stupid Miller comics like that idiot Burton did,betrayed the source material.MILLER wasnt the one that wrote the 30's comics.

Originally posted by Mr Parker
forget frank miller,this Batman is suppose to be based of the original comics.Im not a fan of Millers Batman at all and that was cowardly and murderous of him to do that to him.i hated batman so much in those movies I wanted him to die.again i hated it that he wasnt wanted for murder of the joker at the end,that was NOT believeable!!!!!! thats why I loved Begins was it WAS believeable. He didnt kill anybody in those movies yet he was STILL wanted by the police.THATS realisitc. only idiot Frank Millers Batman is extreme,not the one from the origianl comics. and I dont give a shit about this elseworld comiocs thing cause i dont even know who that it or what your talking about.

If Burton want to do a superhero movie about a villain cowardly killing people,make a james bond flick,its acceptable for HIM to do it,not Batman.Bond has a licence to kill so those Burton films SHOULD have been called James Bond NOT Batman. 🙄

using those stupid Miller comics like that idiot Burton did,betrayed the source material.MILLER wasnt the one that wrote the 30's comics.

Elseworlds:

Mainline:

Like it or not, Burton used BOTH the 1930s pulp inspired comics and the Frank Miller Batman comics as his inspiration. i've also heard he used The Killing Joke as some inspiration for the Joker (though this isn't confirmed) And I think he did a heck of a job. He literally saved Batman on film. He made him the dark presence on screen that he is today. Without Tim Burton, there is no Nolan Batman.

I've accepted the fact that you'll never agree with me on anything, Parker, and that's fine. Just don't continue to trash Burton's work. They're very good films, even if you don't think so, and it showed my perfect version of Batman's city. Perpetually in the 40s, yet also modern.

Well, we agree on one thing, but this is the wrong section for that 😛

Originally posted by Bat Dude
Yet Nolan's Batman can leave Ras on a train to die, even through the whole movie he preaches (even to Ras himself) that no one is beyond saving. If Batman killed Penguin and Joker, then he also killed Ras Al Ghul and Two-Face. Not to mention the fake Ras and all the ninjas in the monastery...

Burton's Batman only killed once. The Axis Chemical scene (when he destroyed the supply of toxins with the bomb) And even then, I don't think he WANTED to kill those guys. He was trying to stop the flow of chemicals into the city. Was it extreme? Hell yeah, but Batman is an extreme measure, himself. He needed to do SOMETHING. Every other time is left very ambiguous, leaving it up to interpretation.

-Joker himself: Yes, he said he was going to, but, in reality, he didn't. He tied his leg to a gargoyle, a gargoyle that wasn't going to budge until Joker tried to escape. He easily could have let go of the ladder, and he'd still be alive at the end of the movie. Batman and Vicki would have fallen, been saved by a Batrope in the knick of time, and the cops would have apprehended Joker before Batman could do anything. And by that time, I think Bruce would have realized he didn't need to kill him, anyway. He'd have been locked away. Justice would have been served. It's not like he pulled out a gun and killed him. So Joker's death really isn't Batman's fault, it's Joker's own fault.

-The Fire Breather: There was snow everywhere. There is no proof that the person died, and again, they could just stop, drop, and roll. Was it an extreme measure? Yeah, but Batman himself is an extreme measure. This guy didn't die.

-The Strongman: I personally believe it was a fake bomb. When it goes off, you can see smoke and a little confetti coming out of the hole. And not to mention they were a gang of circus performers and clowns. Is it so difficult to believe that the bomb was not real, since it was strapped to one of them and they were a gang with a circus motif? It easily could have just been theatrics. Again, no actual proof of death, meaning it's up for interpretation (which is something Burton loves to do with his films, make the watcher decide what certain things mean)

-The Penguin: Batman tricked him with the remote control, but I don't think his reason was to kill Penguin. I think he planned to use the bats to stun him (like they were used in Batman Begins). It ended up being fatal because of where the two were positioned. If Penguin wasn't so close to the window, he would not have died, I can guarantee that.

Are you forgetting the black guy he killed in Batman '89?
Batman doesn't sacrifice lives to save someone.
And you think that Batman is not smart enough to realize that if he stuns Penguin so close to the window, the Penguin will fall? Batman is not an idiot. He is the world's greatest detective.

Batman leaving Ra's on a train is not direct killing like in Burton's films. Also, you don't get why Batman didn't save him. He couldn't have saved Ra's even if he wanted to. Have ever seen him carry more than himself while he is gliding? We haven't. But if he said to Ra's "I want to save you but I can't" then it would sound cheesy.

Two-Face's death was accidental. He was just trying to grab the kid.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
Batman didn't try to kill Penguin! It was because of where the two were positioned. The bats were probably supposed to be used the same way they were used in Batman Begins. If Penguin was where Batman was positioned and vice-versa, he would not have died in that movie. He'd have fallen on the floor and been subdued. Again, it's not Batman's fault Penguin was next to the window when he himself pressed the button on the remote.

I'll give you the guy in the bell tower. That one I'm not sure about. So it's two kills: The Axis Chemicals scene and the Bell Tower scene.

While I agree that Batman underestimated Joker's arrogance and lunacy, I don't think Batman did that with the intent of killing him LIKE THAT. Again, Joker sealed his own fate here. I can guarantee he'd have lived through the film had he let go of the ladder. Batman wouldn't have been able to get to him.

Is it that hard to believe that the bomb may have been fake? They were CIRCUS PERFORMERS, CLOWNS, AND SHOWMEN. They made a living off of theatrics. I don't think that clown who had it strapped to himself would have just blown himself up. They were all cowards (evidenced by their reaction to Batman's imminent arrival in the climax of the movie) so I don't think he was on a suicide mission. Just using context clues...

Like I said, is using the flame on that guy extreme? Yeah, but Batman himself is extreme. Frank Miller's Batman would have done the same thing, and that's the Batman Burton used as his biggest influence (along with those 1930s comics you guys keep lambasting him for using). That guy didn't die.

So I take it you don't like Elseworlds comics, because they aren't "true" to the source material? This movie is in the same vein as those Elseworlds comics.

Two kills are more than enough to make this movie not a Batman movie.

Elseworld stories are SUPPOSED to be different than the original source material. But Burton was claiming that his films were adaptations of the CANON Batman comics.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
Like I said, is using the flame on that guy extreme? Yeah, but Batman himself is extreme. Frank Miller's Batman would have done the same thing, and that's the Batman Burton used as his biggest influence (along with those 1930s comics you guys keep lambasting him for using). That guy didn't die.

There are 4 problems with your theory:
-Burton said he hasn't read any comics besides The Killing Joke. He later came out and admitted that he hasn't read The Killing Joke either.

-Batman NEVER killed anyone in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns. He came close to killing but he NEVER took a life. Where are you getting your facts from?

-Burton hasn't read any comics so he had no way of knowing about the 1930's comics. Even if he did use those comics as inspirations for his films, those early comics are not an excuse for him to kill. Click on the link that I left here to hear why the first year of Batman carrying a gun doesn't count.

-If Burton was inspired by the 1930's comics, then Batman would use a gun, the batmobile would be different, there would be no Alfred, Commissioner Gordon would still somewhat resemble Commissioner Gordon, and Bruce Wayne would still not be the outcast that he was in Burton's films.

So overall, Batman killing is not allowed unless it is an Elseworld story. And Burton was claiming that his Batman was based on the "canon" Batman.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
Elseworlds:

Mainline:

Like it or not, Burton used BOTH the 1930s pulp inspired comics and the Frank Miller Batman comics as his inspiration. i've also heard he used The Killing Joke as some inspiration for the Joker (though this isn't confirmed) And I think he did a heck of a job. He literally saved Batman on film. He made him the dark presence on screen that he is today. Without Tim Burton, there is no Nolan Batman.

I've accepted the fact that you'll never agree with me on anything, Parker, and that's fine. Just don't continue to trash Burton's work. They're very good films, even if you don't think so, and it showed my perfect version of Batman's city. Perpetually in the 40s, yet also modern.

Well, we agree on one thing, but this is the wrong section for that 😛

I already explained why Batman didn't use Frank Miller's work and the 1930's pulp comics as inspirations for his movies.

Before Batman '89 was released in theatres, Burton admitted that he hasn't read any comics besides The Killing Joke. But he obviously hasn't read The Killing Joke either because Batman doesn't kill in that book and Commissioner Gordon is the same Commissioner Gordon from the comics. The Joker from Burton's films also doesn't take any inspiration from the Joker in The Killing Joke.

Originally posted by spidermanrocks
Are you forgetting the black guy he killed in Batman '89?
Batman doesn't sacrifice lives to save someone.
And you think that Batman is not smart enough to realize that if he stuns Penguin so close to the window, the Penguin will fall? Batman is not an idiot. He is the world's greatest detective.

Batman leaving Ra's on a train is not direct killing like in Burton's films. Also, you don't get why Batman didn't save him. He couldn't have saved Ra's even if he wanted to. Have ever seen him carry more than himself while he is gliding? We haven't. But if he said to Ra's "I want to save you but I can't" then it would sound cheesy.

Two-Face's death was accidental. He was just trying to grab the kid.

He didn't press the button that sent the bats out. Penguin did. I don't think Batman set it up so that Penguin would end up by the window. It was the heat of battle, and Penguin thought the remote would launch the missiles and nothing more. He was wrong, and because of where he was positioned, he paid for it. Nothing you can say will make me think that Batman purposely tried to kill Penguin. He could have easily tried earlier in the film, when they met face to face for the first time (the "things change" scene)

If Two-Face's death was "accidental" (with Batman pushing him off the ledge) then Penguin's isn't his fault, either.

And about Ras: That's what he has those grapple guns for. Attach one to Ras and "leave him hanging" so to speak, like he did to the Joker in TDK.

I understand there are times in Burton's movies where Batman kills for the greater good (Axis to stop the chemicals, bell tower to save Vicki), but that doesn't mean they aren't good films in their own right. And the Gotham City Burton made with Anton Furst is the best out of all of the films.

Originally posted by spidermanrocks
There are 4 problems with your theory:
-Burton said he hasn't read any comics besides The Killing Joke. He later came out and admitted that he hasn't read The Killing Joke either.

-Batman NEVER killed anyone in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns. He came close to killing but he NEVER took a life. Where are you getting your facts from?

-Burton hasn't read any comics so he had no way of knowing about the 1930's comics. Even if he did use those comics as inspirations for his films, those early comics are not an excuse for him to kill. Click on the link that I left here to hear why the first year of Batman carrying a gun doesn't count.

-If Burton was inspired by the 1930's comics, then Batman would use a gun, the batmobile would be different, there would be no Alfred, Commissioner Gordon would still somewhat resemble Commissioner Gordon, and Bruce Wayne would still not be the outcast that he was in Burton's films.

So overall, Batman killing is not allowed unless it is an Elseworld story. And Burton was claiming that his Batman was based on the "canon" Batman.

1. BATMAN DIDN'T KILL THE FIRE BREATHER! So your point is moot. Batman was VERY extreme in TDKR, he broke legs, backs, cracked ribs, and even killed (more on that below). Yes, what Batman did to the Fire Breather is extreme, but he didn't kill him.

2. Batman killed the Joker in The Dark Knight Returns. Remember when he broke his neck? Yeah, Batman definitely killed him.

3. It's called artistic license. You can be influenced/inspired by something and have it not be exactly the same. Sam Raimi's movie Darkman was inspired by The Shadow, but it wasn't exactly the same, was it? No. The Shadow movie from 1994 was inspired by the Shadow story "The Golden Master" but it wasn't exactly the same, was it? No.

4. I've explained Bruce Wayne in my Analysis thread. He's a different kind of Bruce from the mainline comics. He's psychotic, and he's obsessed with his work. Sort of like Frank Miller's Bruce Wayne from TDKR. (Did you ever see him as the playboy type in that comic?)

Originally posted by Bat Dude
Elseworlds:

Mainline:

Like it or not, Burton used BOTH the 1930s pulp inspired comics and the Frank Miller Batman comics as his inspiration. i've also heard he used The Killing Joke as some inspiration for the Joker (though this isn't confirmed) And I think he did a heck of a job. He literally saved Batman on film. He made him the dark presence on screen that he is today. Without Tim Burton, there is no Nolan Batman.

I've accepted the fact that you'll never agree with me on anything, Parker, and that's fine. Just don't continue to trash Burton's work. They're very good films, even if you don't think so, and it showed my perfect version of Batman's city. Perpetually in the 40s, yet also modern.

Well, we agree on one thing, but this is the wrong section for that 😛

[QUOTE=12887567]Originally posted by spidermanrocks
Are you forgetting the black guy he killed in Batman '89?
Batman doesn't sacrifice lives to save someone.
And you think that Batman is not smart enough to realize that if he stuns Penguin so close to the window, the Penguin will fall? Batman is not an idiot. He is the world's greatest detective.

Batman leaving Ra's on a train is not direct killing like in Burton's films. Also, you don't get why Batman didn't save him. He couldn't have saved Ra's even if he wanted to. Have ever seen him carry more than himself while he is gliding? We haven't. But if he said to Ra's "I want to save you but I can't" then it would sound cheesy.

Two-Face's death was accidental. He was just trying to grab the kid. [/QUOTE

No he acknowledged that.He admitted he overlooked that one.Thats a great point about him stunning Penguin next to the window,Batman isnt the idiot that Burton portayed him to be in these movies. 🙄

Yeah thats comparing apples to oranges big time with Ras on the train to the jokers murder.Good points,I forgot about that about Penguin and how how Two faces death was accidental.very true.still no good comparison from the Burton apologist. 😄

Originally posted by spidermanrocks
There are 4 problems with your theory:
-Burton said he hasn't read any comics besides The Killing Joke. He later came out and admitted that he hasn't read The Killing Joke either.

-Batman NEVER killed anyone in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns. He came close to killing but he NEVER took a life. Where are you getting your facts from?

-Burton hasn't read any comics so he had no way of knowing about the 1930's comics. Even if he did use those comics as inspirations for his films, those early comics are not an excuse for him to kill. Click on the link that I left here to hear why the first year of Batman carrying a gun doesn't count.

-If Burton was inspired by the 1930's comics, then Batman would use a gun, the batmobile would be different, there would be no Alfred, Commissioner Gordon would still somewhat resemble Commissioner Gordon, and Bruce Wayne would still not be the outcast that he was in Burton's films.

So overall, Batman killing is not allowed unless it is an Elseworld story. And Burton was claiming that his Batman was based on the "canon" Batman.

yeah he REALLY needs to click on that link because it doesnt give him an excuse to cowardly kill people in those movies.he just doesnt get it that its okay for James Bond to do that,but not okay for batman. 🙄

Originally posted by Mr Parker
yeah he REALLY needs to click on that link because it doesnt give him an excuse to cowardly kill people in those movies.he just doesnt get it that its okay for James Bond to do that,but not okay for batman. 🙄

And how about reading my replies, then?

Originally posted by Bat Dude
1. BATMAN DIDN'T KILL THE FIRE BREATHER! So your point is moot. Batman was VERY extreme in TDKR, he broke legs, backs, cracked ribs, and even killed (more on that below). Yes, what Batman did to the Fire Breather is extreme, but he didn't kill him.

2. Batman killed the Joker in The Dark Knight Returns. Remember when he broke his neck? Yeah, Batman definitely killed him.

3. It's called artistic license. You can be influenced/inspired by something and have it not be exactly the same. Sam Raimi's movie Darkman was inspired by The Shadow, but it wasn't exactly the same, was it? No. The Shadow movie from 1994 was inspired by the Shadow story "The Golden Master" but it wasn't exactly the same, was it? No.

4. I've explained Bruce Wayne in my Analysis thread. He's a different kind of Bruce from the mainline comics. He's psychotic, and he's obsessed with his work. Sort of like Frank Miller's Bruce Wayne from TDKR. (Did you ever see him as the playboy type in that comic?)

Dude please name where he killed in TDK.cause I dont remember that ever happening.I just saw TDK at the library tonight so I think I will watch that cause I dont ever recall him doing any of those other things you mentioned either.He beat up on the joker but that was about it.He never crossed the line like he did in the Burton films.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
1. BATMAN DIDN'T KILL THE FIRE BREATHER! So your point is moot. Batman was VERY extreme in TDKR, he broke legs, backs, cracked ribs, and even killed (more on that below). Yes, what Batman did to the Fire Breather is extreme, but he didn't kill him.

2. Batman killed the Joker in The Dark Knight Returns. Remember when he broke his neck? Yeah, Batman definitely killed him.

3. It's called artistic license. You can be influenced/inspired by something and have it not be exactly the same. Sam Raimi's movie Darkman was inspired by The Shadow, but it wasn't exactly the same, was it? No. The Shadow movie from 1994 was inspired by the Shadow story "The Golden Master" but it wasn't exactly the same, was it? No.

4. I've explained Bruce Wayne in my Analysis thread. He's a different kind of Bruce from the mainline comics. He's psychotic, and he's obsessed with his work. Sort of like Frank Miller's Bruce Wayne from TDKR. (Did you ever see him as the playboy type in that comic?)

He was more extreme but he didn't kill anyone. There is a DIFFERENCE between being more extreme and killing someone.

He didn't kill the Joker. He beated the crap out of him and majorly paralized him but the Joker was still alive. After that, the Joker twisted his neck to frame Batman for murder. Remember when the Joker said "You just couldn't do it. The moment was perfect. But you didn't have the nerve. And they'll never know that you didn't have the nerve." and then committed suicide to frame Batman for murder.

See it again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M24Cl7BEmg

Regardless of that, the first year of Batman killing doesn't count. No comic book character is fully developed when they come out. It takes years of changes until they're fulyl written as who they're meant to be. And Batman didn't officialy become Batman until Post-Crisis.

Watch this video for more details:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMlRa7ySWio

In The Dark Knight Returns, Bruce Wayne was just a cranky old dude. And he didn't appear for too long anyways.

As for him not being a playboy in TDKR, there are two main reasons for that:
1. He was old. Old people don't ever pretend to be playboys since you need charm to be a playboy and old people don't have charm. But Keaton's Batman wasn't old. So there was no excuse for him to not be a playboy.
2. The reason why Bruce Wayne pretends to be a playboy is to fool the media and make them believe that he is not Batman. But in TDKR, Bruce Wayne hasn't been Batman for 10 years. So he didn't have to pretend that he was a playboy anymore since he quit being Batman. But Keaton's Batman was still active as Batman.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
And how about reading my replies, then?

I just did and just addressed them, but you obviously havent clicked on that link yet though.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
He didn't press the button that sent the bats out. Penguin did. I don't think Batman set it up so that Penguin would end up by the window. It was the heat of battle, and Penguin thought the remote would launch the missiles and nothing more. He was wrong, and because of where he was positioned, he paid for it. Nothing you can say will make me think that Batman purposely tried to kill Penguin. He could have easily tried earlier in the film, when they met face to face for the first time (the "things change" scene)

If Two-Face's death was "accidental" (with Batman pushing him off the ledge) then Penguin's isn't his fault, either.

And about Ras: That's what he has those grapple guns for. Attach one to Ras and "leave him hanging" so to speak, like he did to the Joker in TDK.

I understand there are times in Burton's movies where Batman kills for the greater good (Axis to stop the chemicals, bell tower to save Vicki), but that doesn't mean they aren't good films in their own right. And the Gotham City Burton made with Anton Furst is the best out of all of the films.

I haven't seen Batman Returns in 4 years so I don't remember that scene. But when I will rewatch it, I will reply to you.

Leave him hanging to what? They were on a subtrain railway that was at the top of the city. There were no close buildings around. And he couldn't grap Ra's with his grappling gun while he was gliding in mid-air. When he grabbed the Joker, he was standing on a building.

I never said they aren't good films. All I said was that they were terrible adaptations.

Originally posted by spidermanrocks
He was more extreme but he didn't kill anyone. There is a DIFFERENCE between being more extreme and killing someone.

He didn't kill the Joker. He beated the crap out of him and majorly paralized him but the Joker was still alive. After that, the Joker twisted his neck to frame Batman for murder. Remember when the Joker said "You just couldn't do it. The moment was perfect. But you didn't have the nerve. And they'll never know that you didn't have the nerve." and then committed suicide to frame Batman for murder.

See it again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M24Cl7BEmg

Regardless of that, the first year of Batman killing doesn't count. No comic book character is fully developed when they come out. It takes years of changes until they're fulyl written as who they're meant to be. And Batman didn't officialy become Batman until Post-Crisis.

Watch this video for more details:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMlRa7ySWio

In The Dark Knight Returns, Bruce Wayne was just a cranky old dude. And he didn't appear for too long anyways.

As for him not being a playboy in TDKR, there are two main reasons for that:
1. He was old. Old people don't ever pretend to be playboys since you need charm to be a playboy and old people don't have charm. But Keaton's Batman wasn't old. So there was no excuse for him to not be a playboy.
2. The reason why Bruce Wayne pretends to be a playboy is to fool the media and make them believe that he is not Batman. But in TDKR, Bruce Wayne hasn't been Batman for 10 years. So he didn't have to pretend that he was a playboy anymore since he quit being Batman. But Keaton's Batman was still active as Batman.

HE DIDN'T KILL THE FIRE BREATHER! Why do you assume that guy died? That's the least likely of any of his "killed" list of actually dying, yet you keep assuming he died?

And he didn't kill Penguin, again, I don't see any evidence that Batman purposely tried to kill Penguin. It was bad luck that Penguin pressed the button when he was next to the window, but Batman didn't plan for it to happen like that.

I'll give you Axis, and I'll give you the guy in the bell tower, and just for kicks, I'll even give you Joker too (even though I don't think what Batman did sealed Joker's fate. I think Joker did himself) But there's no evidence for anyone else having been killed.

-Context clues point toward the bomb being fake.
-The Fire Breather was all around snow and wasn't shown to have been limp or dead. We can assume he lived. It was brutal, but Batman isn't a cupcake like Superman, you know. He's been pretty brutal in the mainline comics before.
-Penguin pressed the button and had the misfortune of being too close to the window when the bats stunned him. Batman didn't plan it that way.