Three way fight Mindless Hulk vs Superman vs Thor no Hammer with a twist.

Originally posted by Soljer
Wasting my time?

Let's review;

IM: Superman, you shouldn't be involved. Depart and I won't [b]murder you. Acknowledge my might is superior. Struggling is futile. My power is without limit!

*Superman begins knocking the shit out of him*

IM: Oh, shit, maybe I can't put him down. Maybe I can't murder him as if he were nothing. Maybe my might isn't all that superior. Maybe his struggle wasn't futile. Perhaps my power ISN'T without limit, since Superman just son'd the shit out of me. Better end this contest of melee combat. [/B]

Well first of all why are we assuming that he wanted to fight with fisticuffs? He said his might is superior that is not specifically in strength. So Superman starts punching into Infinity Man, right didnt look to bothered in the next panel. Cap has gone H2H with Korvac doesnt mean hes stomping Hulk does it?

Anyway we know that Inifnity Man underestimated him but obvoulsy it seems IM would pawn the shit out of Superman anyday.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well first of all why are we assuming that he wanted to fight with fisticuffs? He said his might is superior that is not specifically in strength. So Superman starts punching into Infinity Man, right didnt look to bothered in the next panel. Cap has gone H2H with Korvac doesnt mean hes stomping Hulk does it?

Anyway we know that Inifnity Man underestimated him but obvoulsy it seems IM would pawn the shit out of Superman anyday.

I never said Infinity Man wouldn't be taking Superman.

But clearly not through sheer force. 🙂.

Superman base strength > Any incarnation of Hulk
Superman speed >>>>>>>> Any incarnation of Hulk
Superman intelligence >>>>>>> Most versions of Hulk
Superman abilities >>>>>>> Any incarnation of Hulk

Seems simple enough.

Superman > Hulk.

Mindless Hulk needs time and space to:

1. Fathom what is going on.
2. Grow in power to rival Superman.

In a confined box time and space will not be on the Hulk's side.

Originally posted by Soljer
I never said Infinity Man wouldn't be taking Superman.

But clearly not through sheer force. 🙂.

Yes I know you did.

I dunno man. Im pretty sure there are examples of Cap fighting physically superior opponets and they end up trying to blast him not because they cant beat him physically but they just cant take the hassle. Hell Ikaris could take Cap H2H in one encounter he just blasted him in the chest.

Anyway I dont know about IM strength feats but looking at his description he should be beating down Superman but of course I could be wrong. That its a legit interpretation of the scans and to be fair I was being a bit fanboyish there.

Phantom zone, I think you are tricky. You indeed have a picture of Superman (I think) under your name. But you always seem to argue against him for some strange reason. It also seems you favor Marvel characters over D.C. ones.

And to Janus. Yes Hulk's strength can grow to rival anyone elses. But this takes time. Now the thing that seperates Hulk from Superman the most is speed. Speed with sufficient power takes away Hulk's time.
Also Hulk's strength increases during each fight that he has. So you can't list feats and imply that this is Hulk's base strength or a strength he immediately jumped to. For example, when he fought Sentry, Hulk
had already went through the planet hulk saga, the blackbolt saga, the ironman saga, the x-men saga, etc. His strength had plenty of time to grow because of the damages and stress he had endured.

With that said, your fallacies are:
1. "Hulk has done X thus his strength is so and so right now."
This is a fallacy since we all know that this strength isn't Hulk's base strength.

2. "Hulk's strength will grow beyond anything in hardly no time."
This is faulty because of the word "will" (should be "can"😉. Since Hulk has done this less than 1 out of 100 times means that this is more statistical than guaranteed. Thus from the entire history of Hulk we must ask, "What is the probability that Hulk's strength grow beyond such and such in X time?".

With that said, Superman can literally hit Hulk with at least moon smashing blows more times in one second than anyone can count to in a year . There is no way Hulk will have the time to rival Superman before he is koed.

Its Superman-Prime.

But Zone is just dumb so ignore him.

Originally posted by h1a8
Phantom zone, I think you are tricky. You indeed have a picture of Superman (I think) under your name. But you always seem to argue against him for some strange reason. It also seems you favor Marvel characters over D.C. ones.

And to Janus. Yes Hulk's strength can grow to rival anyone elses. But this takes time. Now the thing that seperates Hulk from Superman the most is speed. Speed with sufficient power takes away Hulk's time.
Also Hulk's strength increases during each fight that he has. So you can't list feats and imply that this is Hulk's base strength or a strength he immediately jumped to. For example, when he fought Sentry, Hulk
had already went through the planet hulk saga, the blackbolt saga, the ironman saga, the x-men saga, etc. His strength had plenty of time to grow because of the damages and stress he had endured.

With that said, your fallacies are:
1. "Hulk has done X thus his strength is so and so right now."
This is a fallacy since we all know that this strength isn't Hulk's base strength.

2. "Hulk's strength [B]will grow beyond anything in hardly no time."
This is faulty because of the word "will" (should be "can"😉. Since Hulk has done this less than 1 out of 100 times means that this is more statistical than guaranteed. Thus from the entire history of Hulk we must ask, "What is the probability that Hulk's strength grow beyond such and such in X time?".

With that said, Superman can literally hit Hulk with at least moon smashing blows more times in one second than anyone can count to in a year . There is no way Hulk will have the time to rival Superman before he is koed. [/B]

I'd recommend you take some lessons in critical thinking somewhere, maybe to a course in philosophy, I'm sure they offer that in high school.

just to address one of your many distortions, misrepresentations and misunderstandings of what I said. I did not ever deny that Hulk gets stronger during a fight, indeed I have often stated that, nor did I allude to any of the feats I referenced as being demonstrative of his "base strength", rather I provided them as illustration and further proof of my assertion that he becomes strong enough to match whoever he is going to fight, instantly. thereafter, he grows to overpower them.

as evidence of this, and your obvious attempts at dissembling, I'll point out again the one example you carefully omit from your babbling response, Hulk's fight with Onslaught.
Hulk going into that fight as a "base 100CL" of the type you envisage, would have been squished by the first blow Onslaught landed upon him, instead he went in knowing he was up against a monster and making himself a monster to rival it. same again with Zom/Strange too. Hulk was TORN THROUGH by Zom/Strange's punches, he healed in a panel, carried on fighting and obviously grew stronger to the point that, at the end, a mere THREE punches from him downed Zom/Strange.

anyway, I'll put you on ignore now and leave this as a lesson to you and your ilk, learn to read and comprehend an argument before you shoot your mouth off.

Mindless Hulk's intelligence is such that IMO he would be unable to comprehend the initial physical threat posed by Superman - and would not instantly become his equal or superior until being engaged.

Hulk needs at least some time for his emotions to link into his power. Superman does not.

The end.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Mindless Hulk's intelligence is such that IMO he would be unable to comprehend the initial physical threat posed by Superman - and would not instantly become his equal or superior until being engaged.

Hulk needs at least some time for his emotions to link into his power. Superman does not.

The end.

if Superman snuck up on him, if mindless Hulk didn't know it was a fight, then you might have an argument. happily, in forum fights, all parties know what they're expected to do and who they're up against.

Originally posted by janus77
rubbish.
Mindless Hulk is more instinctual and quicker to become enraged.
you put him in a forums fight, he will smash, that's what he will want to do, that's what he'll be ready to do.

if Superman snuck up on him, if mindless Hulk didn't know it was a fight, then you might have an argument. happily, in forum fights, all parties know what they're expected to do and who they're up against.

Evidently you assume too much. Intelligence levels equivelent to that of a primitive man means he will have little grasp of his emotions and the potential the Hulk normally knows he has (the madder hulk gets the stronger Hulk gets).

I found this little extract (hulklibrary.com) to be most informative on the mindless hulk:

Strength Level: Initially lifts 90 tons. Although he has the potential for limitless strength, his simple mind limits his strength level.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Evidently you assume too much. Intelligence levels equivelent to that of a primitive man means he will have little grasp of his emotions and the potential the Hulk normally knows he has (the madder hulk gets the stronger Hulk gets).

I found this little extract (hulklibrary.com) to be most informative on the mindless hulk:

Strength Level: Initially lifts 90 tons. Although he has the potential for limitless strength, his simple mind limits his strength level.

Mindless Hulk demonstrated that he could access enough power to hang with Onslaught. moreover, he demonstrated an instinctual-awareness of the danger Onslaught posed and dealt with him carefully.

it's perfectly ok to dislike the character, to belittle it etc etc, but you shouldn't engage in a debate about the character's hypothetical capabilities without first making yourself aware of what his established powers and feats are.

Originally posted by janus77
actually my assumption was that Banner knew more about Hulk and Hulk's powers than some line in a bio somewhere.
as he asked Jean Grey to completely shut off Banner's influence upon Hulk before stepping into the ring against Onslaught. Banner wanted to remove any impediments to Hulk's power.

Mindless Hulk demonstrated that he could access enough power to hang with Onslaught. moreover, he demonstrated an instinctual-awareness of the danger Onslaught posed and dealt with him carefully.

it's perfectly ok to dislike the character, to belittle it etc etc, but you shouldn't engage in a debate about the character's hypothetical capabilities without first making yourself aware of what his established powers and feats are.

Again you assume too much. Hulk is probably my favourite comicbook hero. I just like to see arguments presented from a non bias point of view. In no way am I trying to belittle the Hulk.

I have no doubt that a "normal" incarnation of the Hulk would be victorious - however I stand by my opinion of the mindless Hulk - and the disadvantages his lack of intelligence presents in a battle of this nature.

The Hulk had already attained massive levels of power AND rage in his battle with Onslaught before having Banner "switched off" - the mindless Hulk did nothing to gain that level of power - he merely put it to use IMO.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Again you assume too much. Hulk is probably my favourite comicbook hero. I just like to see arguments presented from a non bias point of view. In no way am I trying to belittle the Hulk.

I have no doubt that a "normal" incarnation of the Hulk would be victorious - however I stand by my opinion of the mindless Hulk - and the disadvantages his lack of intelligence presents in a battle of this nature.

The Hulk had already attained massive levels of power AND rage in his battle with Onslaught before having Banner "switched off" - the mindless Hulk did nothing to gain that level of power - he merely put it to use IMO.

all you're arguing from is on-line bios, and you're attempting to use them to negate on-panel, explicitly stated and pictorially demonstrated, proof of how Hulk works. ie that Banner is the limiting factor/the mechanism for containing/suppressing the infinite energies that Hulk would otherwise be churning out.

if you want more proof, check out the time when, during Onslaught reborn, Banner and Banner-less Hulk co-exist in different universes. the Banner-less Hulk is emitting energies because he can't control himself too well.

another, more recent, example is when in WWH Hulk finally looses his temper good and proper and begins to fall into insanity, the spike in gamma is humongous, the shockwaves from the energies he unleashes - and energy levels that are attained in the space of 2 panels - threaten to break the world.

there's plenty more. even The Beyonder commented on how Hulk without Banner = infinite power, that Banner is the finite element, the control and limiting factor (Banner being, if you like, the super-ego, deciding good and right and suppressing the desires of the Id).

Originally posted by janus77
lol,
go read the battle again. Banner asked to have the Banner persona switched off so that Hulk could fight with more power. you have no basis for such speculation, seriously.

all you're arguing from is on-line bios, and you're attempting to use them to negate on-panel, explicitly stated and pictorially demonstrated, proof of how Hulk works. ie that Banner is the limiting factor/the mechanism for containing/suppressing the infinite energies that Hulk would otherwise be churning out.

if you want more proof, check out the time when, during Onslaught reborn, Banner and Banner-less Hulk co-exist in different universes. the Banner-less Hulk is emitting energies because he can't control himself too well.

another, more recent, example is when in WWH Hulk finally looses his temper good and proper and begins to fall into insanity, the spike in gamma is humongous, the shockwaves from the energies he unleashes - and energy levels that are attained in the space of 2 panels - threaten to break the world.

there's plenty more. even The Beyonder commented on how Hulk without Banner = infinite power, that Banner is the finite element, the control and limiting factor (Banner being, if you like, the super-ego, deciding good and right and suppressing the desires of the Id).

Ok fine let us assume then that mindless Hulk can potentially achieve the same level of strength that any other Hulk can - and possibly in less time.

You can not deny that his lack of any intelligence is going to hold him back in an enclosed fight with somone like Superman who can concievably move faster than it would take MH to react and become sufficiently enraged.

Although mindless Hulk conceivably has greater potential than other incarnations of the Hulk - I don't believe he has the same ability as the others to attain it.

it's because Hulk neither tires nor 'taps out' that I think the confined surroundings suite him well. Superman could get a dozen or so hits in perhaps, but that's not going to be enough to put Hulk down and Hulk's going to be flailing around with his gargantuan fists, smashing into both Thor and Superman. all Hulk needs is to connect with a couple of world busting smacks and Superman is in trouble.

also, in-between fighting Thor, Superman may not even have that much time to attempt to strategise against Hulk. in some ways, it's like Superman versus DD, the ideal battle plan for Superman is to fight from a distance, stay out of range etc etc ... every option that the Dome forecloses.

ok, all that said... I do agree that Mindless Hulk isn't a brilliant battle tactician, isn't smart enough to spot a trap etc etc, but I don't think that tactics or strategy can play apart in this kind of scenario, it's all too close up and immediate.

Originally posted by janus77
seriously, why do you persist in addressing me with these demonstrations of your glaring inability to comprehend argument, evidence or proof?

I'd recommend you take some lessons in critical thinking somewhere, maybe to a course in philosophy, I'm sure they offer that in high school.

just to address one of your many distortions, misrepresentations and misunderstandings of what I said. I did not ever deny that Hulk gets stronger during a fight, indeed I have often stated that, nor did I allude to any of the feats I referenced as being demonstrative of his "base strength", rather I provided them as illustration and further proof of my assertion that he becomes [b]strong enough to match whoever he is going to fight, instantly. thereafter, he grows to overpower them.

as evidence of this, and your obvious attempts at dissembling, I'll point out again the one example you carefully omit from your babbling response, Hulk's fight with Onslaught.
Hulk going into that fight as a "base 100CL" of the type you envisage, would have been squished by the first blow Onslaught landed upon him, instead he went in knowing he was up against a monster and making himself a monster to rival it. same again with Zom/Strange too. Hulk was TORN THROUGH by Zom/Strange's punches, he healed in a panel, carried on fighting and obviously grew stronger to the point that, at the end, a mere THREE punches from him downed Zom/Strange.

anyway, I'll put you on ignore now and leave this as a lesson to you and your ilk, learn to read and comprehend an argument before you shoot your mouth off. [/B]

Nothing you said here actually contradicts what I've said. You just confirmed it. You ignore the fact that it takes time for Hulk to get stronger (even statistically). He doesn't automatically starts strong enough or gets strong enough instantly. Whether it is 5 seconds or 2 it definitely takes some significant amount of time for Hulk to gain any strength.

The Onslaught scenario was bogus altogether. So there is no sense in
even trying to make any sense out of it. They tore their a$$ with many when they decided to let the gem be inside Jugg's chest.

And know this, the head is the key to victory (not the chest).

Originally posted by janus77
actually my assumption was that Banner knew more about Hulk and Hulk's powers than some line in a bio somewhere.
as he asked Jean Grey to completely shut off Banner's influence upon Hulk before stepping into the ring against Onslaught. Banner wanted to remove any impediments to Hulk's power.

Mindless Hulk demonstrated that he could access enough power to hang with Onslaught. moreover, he demonstrated an instinctual-awareness of the danger Onslaught posed and dealt with him carefully.

it's perfectly ok to dislike the character, to belittle it etc etc, but you shouldn't engage in a debate about the character's hypothetical capabilities without first making yourself aware of what his established powers and feats are.

Onslaught gave Hulk a billion years to get mad enough.
Hulk didn't get strong enough instantly.
It was like Onslaught did it on purpose or something.

Originally posted by janus77
it's because Hulk neither tires nor 'taps out' that I think the confined surroundings suite him well. Superman could get a dozen or so hits in perhaps, but that's not going to be enough to put Hulk down and Hulk's going to be flailing around with his gargantuan fists, smashing into both Thor and Superman. all Hulk needs is to connect with a couple of world busting smacks and Superman is in trouble.

also, in-between fighting Thor, Superman may not even have that much time to attempt to strategise against Hulk. in some ways, it's like Superman versus DD, the ideal battle plan for Superman is to fight from a distance, stay out of range etc etc ... every option that the Dome forecloses.

ok, all that said... I do agree that Mindless Hulk isn't a brilliant battle tactician, isn't smart enough to spot a trap etc etc, but I don't think that tactics or strategy can play apart in this kind of scenario, it's all too close up and immediate.

Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk would be a statue to Superman for a long time.
Personally, a couple of moon busting blows to the head should do the trick. But know this, if Superman wanted he could "literally" hit Hulk over a million times within the 1st sec. If you say that Hulk can initially survive a million moon busting hits to the brain without being at least koed while he's at base levels then it is totally pointless to ever argue with you. You might as well say that it is physically impossible to ko Hulk.

Seriously, Hulk fans on KMC generally do the character more harm then good!