Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Wow, My delusion is no greater then yours; that’s really cool, I wish I had thought of that. And it’s been 25 years sense I was in collage. I’m just a Mechanical Designer for an antenna manufacturer. I just get on here to have fun. If I said anything that offended you, I am sorry. Some of your ideas are interesting, but not quite Christian. You should come over to the Religious Forum, it might be nice to talk about some of your ideas in a less volatile forum.
No..religion is only going the way of the dinosaur..the only truth..is that 25 years of no collage begins to take a toll on one's English abilities. No offense was taken by your post. However, offense is a relative concept..seeing how defense can be used in a football, soccer, and other sports to perceive the objective truth of one's subjective actions. If we go to the collage, then the truth will be known through the falsehoods of our illusions.
😆 😆
Originally posted by Df02
well done, you've won the easiest argument life can throw up...
Thank you. But as you can see, there are many out there who believe that 2+2 = 4 is a "relative" truth. Some reasons that support their arguments are as follows:
2 apples + 2 oranges not = 4 apples and oranges
-2 = +2
Falsehoods make up the Absolute Truth
Philosophical Sceptics can question the reasoning behind 2 + 2 = 4
The sad part is..that these arguments have gone on for 7 pages.
😆 😆
So anyone else have an opinion as to why 2 + 2 = 4 is a relative argument?
Re: Prove to me that 2+2 does not = 4
Originally posted by whobdamandog
Math is generally referred to as an "Objective Truth" in science.
Objective meaning.."absolute" in its existence or beginning.
By faith alone..numbers used to determine the results of simple equations are assumed to be 100 percent constant. "Constant" meaning..they represent "absolute" values...and are not subject to change.There are some, however, who believe that everything in life is made up of "Relative Truths." Relative meaning..everything is subject to change, and truth is dependant upon an individual's circumstances/views.
Those of you who believe in "Relative Truths." Please provide for me an explanation..as to how the mathmetical equation.
2 + 2 = 4
Is a relative truth.
**You may not make any "absolute" arguments to prove this relative truth, doing such.. would be contradictory to your position.
No need for numbers.
"There are no absolutes" is self-contradicting.
Another absolute is: those who identify too strongly with their belief that "everything is relative" will not change their minds, regardless of whatever proof you send their way.
frusty
Re: Re: Prove to me that 2+2 does not = 4
Originally posted by Mindship
No need for numbers.
"There are no absolutes" is self-contradicting.
Another absolute is: those who identify too strongly with their belief that "everything is relative" will not change their minds, regardless of whatever proof you send their way.frusty
True..but you have to admit..it is funny to see Philosophical Relativists/Sceptics debate the "relativity" of Mathemetics. It is also funny to see them apply these concepts of Relativism/Sceptism to scientific theory/rationale, but then at the same time assert that scientific thoeries are based off of "empirical/absolute" evidence." 😆 😆
It's much funnier to watch you being eithee so dumb or so set on saying what you want to say as to not understand what is being said to you in the thread, seeing as all those points have been addressed.
Again, prove that 2 + 2 IS 4 in the first place without making an assumption. You can't, therefore it is not absolute, by a relatavist argument.
It is in fact very easy indeed to question the logic of 2 + 2 = 4. It is assuming that we are correctly identifying the numbers 2 and 4, the concept of addition, and the concept of logic needed for mathematics to function. All of these things could be wrong as a result of our flawed perceptions. Therefore all of these are relative assumptions; none are absolute.
Your clumsy attempts to simply dismiss those statements, as if your words have the power to, simpl reflect badly on your own arguments again.
The assumptions that science needs to function I also adreessed in my last post here.
I must insist that people have the courtesy to properly read the posts of others.
Re: Re: Re: Prove to me that 2+2 does not = 4
Originally posted by whobdamandog
True..but you have to admit..it is funny to see Philosophical Relativists/Sceptics debate the "relativity" of Mathemetics.
This reminds me of a favorite Einstein quote:
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm beginning to have my doubts about the former."
Originally posted by Ushgarak
It's much funnier to watch you being eithee so dumb or so set on saying what you want to say as to not understand what is being said to you in the thread, seeing as all those points have been addressed.Again, prove that 2 + 2 IS 4 in the first place without making an assumption. You can't, therefore it is not absolute, by a relatavist argument.
It is in fact very easy indeed to question the logic of 2 + 2 = 4. It is assuming that we are correctly identifying the numbers 2 and 4, the concept of addition, and the concept of logic needed for mathematics to function. All of these things could be wrong as a result of our flawed perceptions. Therefore all of these are relative assumptions; none are absolute.
Isaac Newton proved it, in very great length, in his Mathematica Principia. He begins with operational definitions and logic and builds from there. Far be it for my far less capable brain to recount his reasoning, but it is there for anyone who is interested.
No, you're not paying attention. Anything he proved might be on the basis of flawed perceptions and logic. Everything he was taking for granted might be false. The system of logic he used to prove it could be erroneous. There is no way to prove its starting validity.
Therefore any proof he offers STILL makes assumptions, and therefore is still not absolute
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Again, prove that 2 + 2 IS 4 in the first place
** + ** = ****
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Anything he proved might be on the basis of flawed perceptions and logic. Everything he was taking for granted might be false. The system of logic he used to prove it could be erroneous. There is no way to prove its starting validity.
def:Base
The fact, observation, or premise from which a reasoning process is begun.
The fundamental principle or underlying concept of a system or theory; a basis.
🙄 😆 😆
Originally posted by whobdamandog
No..religion is only going the way of the dinosaur..the only truth..is that 25 years of no collage begins to take a toll on one's English abilities. No offense was taken by your post. However, offense is a relative concept..seeing how defense can be used in a football, soccer, and other sports to perceive the objective truth of one's subjective actions. If we go to the collage, then the truth will be known through the falsehoods of our illusions.😆 😆
I am glad you were not offended, although I can still hear the anger in your writing. Your little hidden jabs are like a 3-year-old who doses not want to take a bath. Do you know that the energy you put out into the world is the same energy you get back? This concept is just like the force of Star Wars, its called karma. You want to believe in an absolute truth? I will give you one, the “Law”, cause and effect also known as Karma. There is no getting away from it for there is no forgiveness. There is no white man on a cloud called god and the only heaven or hell is here on Earth.
You have ignored my point about time. If I were I believe like you do; if I was late for work, I would just turn my clock back 10 minuets and everything would be ok. For to say that math controls truth is to say that clocks control time.
Please stop pointing out my bad spelling or grammar, it only diminishes you in my eyes. I am sure if I were to look; I could find enough bad spelling and bad grammar in your posts to match mine. You cannot argue with my points so you try to degrade me in any way you can. This is the kind of thing that a looser dose. Don’t be a looser, show respect for my opinion and me.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
All of these things could be wrong as a result of our flawed perceptions.
If our perceptions are flawed, then, for consistency, this would include the perception, "our perceptions are flawed," which certainly invites circular reasoning.
Put another way: you seem absolutely certain these perceptions could be flawed.
Also--and I ask this with all due respect--are you even open to the possibility of an absolute proof? Because, if your philosophy believes all things are relative, without exception, then by definition you aren't, and this discussion is pointless. We best agree to disagree. If you are open, then you do accept the notion that absolutes exist.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I am glad you were not offended, although I can still hear the anger in your writing. Your little hidden jabs are like a 3-year-old who doses not want to take a bath. Do you know that the energy you put out into the world is the same energy you get back? This concept is just like the force of Star Wars, its called karma. You want to believe in an absolute truth? I will give you one, the “Law”, cause and effect also known as Karma. There is no getting away from it for there is no forgiveness. There is no white man on a cloud called god and the only heaven or hell is here on Earth.
You are correct...when we reply to text on a computer screen..we can hear the words being typed by the person who is responding to us. Written words don't generate sound..but if we look subjectively at the objective illusionary truth..we will understand..that the more we attempt to explain ourselves about the relativity of 2+2 = 4...our intelligence becomes less relative, and our foolishness becomes more absolute.
You have ignored my point about time. If I were I believe like you do; if I was late for work, I would just turn my clock back 10 minuets and everything would be ok. For to say that math controls truth is to say that clocks control time.
How do you know that you are late for work..it's all relative to who/what you are late for..and who you believe is your God..
Some might say that you are too early..Others might say you are too late. However, only your boss/God has the right to make that determination..for he is the one who allows you to keep your job/paycheck/life.
Please stop pointing out my bad spelling or grammar, it only diminishes you in my eyes. I am sure if I were to look; I could find enough bad spelling and bad grammar in your posts to match mine. You cannot argue with my points so you try to degrade me in any way you can. This is the kind of thing that a looser dose. Don’t be a looser, show respect for my opinion and me.
You are part of the "God" of all Illusionary truths..and I admit..I cannot begin to argue or reason with the truth of his falsehoods. Your God has created a world of fantasy and illusionary realities in which truth can only be determined by him. I do respect your right to believe in your true illusionary falsehoods, and believe that the bad Kharma of all of your delusions..will be given back to you many times over...
👆
Originally posted by Mindship
If our perceptions are flawed, then, for consistency, this would include the perception, "our perceptions are flawed," which certainly invites circular reasoning.Put another way: you seem absolutely certain these perceptions could be flawed.
I also pointed out to him that assigning a basis to Philosophical Sceptism/Relativity, is also self defeating/circular.
(*note..basis meaning beginning, fundemantal/absolute starting point...etc)
but alas..as the old saying goes..
You can't rationalize with the irrational...😉 😆 😆
Originally posted by whobdamandog
...You are part of the "God" of all Illusionary truths..and I admit..I cannot begin to argue or reason with the truth of his falsehoods. Your God has created a world of fantasy and illusionary realities in which truth can only be determined by him. I do respect your right to believe in your true illusionary falsehoods, and believe that the bad Kharma of all of your delusions..will be given back to you many times over...👆
You are disrespectful, and arrogant, but that is your Karma.
Originally posted by whobdamandog
But being a Relativist..you should be open to the possibility that you are the one who is being disrepctful, arrogant, and will receive bad Kharma.... 😄
I am not a Relativist; you haven't been reading my posts. I do believe there is an absolute truth, but I also believe that neither you nor I know what it is, or will ever know.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I am not a Relativist; you haven't been reading my posts. I do believe there is an absolute truth, but I also believe that neither you nor I know what it is, or will ever know.
All Buddhists are Relativists..but not all Relativists are Buddhists.
You all ascribe to the belief "Everyone has there own truth--everything is shades of gray" speel..a fundemental principle of Relativism.