Onslaught vs. tyrant

Started by who?-kid3 pages

Originally posted by Beyonder
His most powerful form was armorless.

That's not entirely true. He was both at his weakest and his strongest.
Tyrant rips apart his armor and slams into Onslaught.

Onslaught is not just gonna stand there.
Additionally, Onslaught fought a few top tiers.

With the last battle, Onslaught fought the X-Men, the Avengers, the Hulk and the FF at the same time. That's more than a few top tiers.

And they were only able to fight him thanks to the gadgets made by Reed (or Iron Man ? - don't remember exactly) which protected the heroes against the uberpowerful telepathic attacks of Onslaught...

Originally posted by who?-kid
[B]That's not entirely true. He was both at his weakest and his strongest.
[B]
Onslaught is not just gonna stand there.
[B]
With the last battle, Onslaught fought the X-Men, the Avengers, the Hulk and the FF at the same time. That's more than a few top tiers.

Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, Gladiator, and Terrax would devaste that line up. And who among those were top tier? They're not even comparable them to the guys Tyrant fought.


And they were only able to fight him thanks to the gadgets made by Reed (or Iron Man ? - don't remember exactly) which protected the heroes against the uberpowerful telepathic attacks of Onslaught...

Telepathy doesn't work on Tyrant. And the cosmic heroes and villain couldn't beat Tyrant.

Tyrant=sky father> onslaught

<<That's not entirely true. He was both at his weakest and his strongest.>>

what leads you to believe that?
😑

by all indications, the final form was his most advanced form and the one he wanted most to achieve. are you saying that because he became vulnerable to the heroes lifeforces somehow?

coughpiscough

Originally posted by leonidas
<<That's not entirely true. He was both at his weakest and his strongest.>>

what leads you to believe that?
😑


Nothing much. Just a bit of common sense : he was weak because the heroes could "absorb him" (in a way) without a problem, and he was at his strongest because he didn't have a physical body anymore that could be hurt and because he became some kind of living psionic energy (or whatever lol) he could "expand" himself all over the world.

Originally posted by who?-kid
Nothing much. Just a bit of common sense : he was weak because the heroes could "absorb him" (in a way) without a problem, and he was at his strongest because he didn't have a physical body anymore that could be hurt and because he became some kind of living psionic energy (or whatever lol) he could "expand" himself all over the world.

i suppose that does make sense. that's why i called piS. he reaches his ultimate form, and because of that, they can beat him. though i guess hulk did a pretty good job against his physical form . . .

anyway, tyrant wins. 😄

Originally posted by leonidas
i suppose that does make sense. that's why i called piS. he reaches his ultimate form, and because of that, they can beat him. though i guess hulk did a pretty good job against his physical form . . .

anyway, tyrant wins. 😄


Hulk ? Only because he was protected by a gadget. Otherwise he would be dead in 2 seconds. And Onslaught still dominated the fight.

And agreed, Tyrant - as boring and overpowered he is - can indeed win. But is this a fist fight ? I don't know, but I doubt it.

<<Hulk ? Only because he was protected by a gadget.>>

gadget?? jean unleashed a 'mindless hulk' on onslaught. she basically accelerated his rage. what 'gadget' are you talking about?

Oh Jean, I forgot about her. True, she "unleashed" a pissed off Mindless Hulk, one of the strongest Hulk incarnations ever. Hulk knew he wouldn't stand a chance against Onslaught, so he almost begged her to turn off his Banner side.

And the gadget I was talking about : near the end, Iron Man says to Cyclops : blah blah we have special gadgets that help protect us against Onslaughts' (mind) attacks, and how about you guys ?

Cyclops responds by saying that Jean and Cable protect the rest.

Originally posted by who?-kid
Oh Jean, I forgot about her. True, she "unleashed" a pissed off Mindless Hulk, one of the strongest Hulk incarnations ever. Hulk knew he wouldn't stand a chance against Onslaught, so he almost begged her to turn off his Banner side.

And the gadget I was talking about : near the end, Iron Man says to Cyclops : blah blah we have special gadgets that help protect us against Onslaughts' (mind) attacks, and how about you guys ?

Cyclops responds by saying that Jean and Cable protect the rest.


so if jean and cable could prevent it you think Ons can effect Tyrant?

Originally posted by kgkg
so if jean and cable could prevent it you think Ons can effect Tyrant?

hmm, i'm not liking those odds . . . in his defense, he HAS stated tyrant wins, though . . .

and PROF hulk knew he couldn't win -- his strength doesn't escalate fast enough. savage hulk probably couldn't have reached the necessary strength fast enough either. in any event, hulk DID smash his physical form and the heroes DID beat his formless form. not sure how this is actually a discussion . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i'm not liking those odds . . . in his defense, he HAS stated tyrant wins, though . . .

and PROF hulk knew he couldn't win -- his strength doesn't escalate fast enough. savage hulk probably couldn't have reached the necessary strength fast enough either. in any event, hulk DID smash his physical form and the heroes DID beat his formless form. not sure how this is actually a discussion . . .


i see lol

Originally posted by leonidas
[B]xavier/mag/xman could go either way?eer those 3 could take out a well fed, high powered galactus? ❌

No, and neither could Tyrant. Tyrant hung with Galactus because the nature of their respective powers made Galactus' attacks strengthen Tyrant. It wasn't because of Tyrant's power LEVEL.

X-man at full potential is his Shaman self, which functions on a level approaching that of Phoenix.


the richards version was not shown to have command of all of richard's powers. even after demonstrating some abilities to alter reality the heroes were still able to inflict damage on him -- it's not like he wiped them out with ease as a celestial would do. he spent most of his time shielding himself from them.

A lot of that was CIS, though - bravado made to demonstrate a point. I'm not taking that into consideration for this fight. If Onslaught created the sun inside the Earth's orbit...he would have wiped them out with ease. He didn't because he wanted them to live to "behold his mighty hand"....for whatever reason.


final form was never shown to be capable of anything really, though the fact that the life forces of the heroes was enough to disrupt him doesn't bode well for his beatintg tyrant, PIS as the whole conclusion was. being invulnerable to what the heroes could do is FAR from 'proof' that he would be 'proof' against someone of tyrant's power level. why couldn't tyrant simply absorb his energy form? would have been interesting if ss were present at the fight . . .

Absorbing Onslaught didn't beat him. The heroes absorbed Onslaught, then the X-men had to kill the heroes. That option isn't available to Tyrant.


in any event, it's all pure speculation, demi. i argued a long time against gs in the onslaught v thanos thread (a classic) that onslaught could be seen to be at thanos' level and maybe above. but to say just because he had some access to franklin's ability makes him celestial level (if even THAT level could defeat a fully powered-galactus level tyrant) is purist speculation.

What's speculation about it? We KNOW what Franklin's power level is, what KNOW what X-men's power level is, we KNOW what Xavier's and Magneto's power level is. If there's someone who combines the power of all four, we KNOW what his power level will be - a high level reality warper with access to power exceeding that of a Celestial.

In this fight, we're turning off PIS and CIS.

<<No, and neither could Tyrant. Tyrant hung with Galactus because the nature of their respective powers made Galactus' attacks strengthen Tyrant. It wasn't because of Tyrant's power LEVEL.

X-man at full potential is his Shaman self, which functions on a level approaching that of Phoenix.>>

he came pretty damn close. at least a portion of his power seems to have to do with energy absorbtion. again, i see no reason why he couldn't absorb the energy form of onslaught. and it wasn't full potential nate that he was dealing with -- had it been, he never would have been able to steal his powers in the first place.

<<A lot of that was CIS, though - bravado made to demonstrate a point. I'm not taking that into consideration for this fight. If Onslaught created the sun inside the Earth's orbit...he would have wiped them out with ease. He didn't because he wanted them to live to "behold his mighty hand"....for whatever reason.>>

there you go with that CIS label again . . .

seems more logical to say he just didn't know how to use frank's powers adequately enough. and if he did it inside the earth's orbit it seems likely he would have killed himself as well.

<<What's speculation about it? We KNOW what Franklin's power level is, what KNOW what X-men's power level is, we KNOW what Xavier's and Magneto's power level is. If there's someone who combines the power of all four, we KNOW what his power level will be - a high level reality warper with access to power exceeding that of a Celestial.

In this fight, we're turning off PIS and CIS.>>

and apparently turning on a lot of WHAT IFs and FULL POTENTIALS. nate wasn't full potential when onslaught had his power. what makes you think he could access his full power? certainly nothing from the story. frank himself didn't know how to use his power effectively. again, what makes you think onslaught could do so? nothing in the story aside from that sun demonstration which was pretty meaningless. onslaught spent most of his time shielding himself in that fight. to claim he didn't wipe them all out because of cis doesn't sit well. facts are facts in the fight. he was injured by the heroes, broken by hulk, absorbed by the heroes. tyrant (no where near full power judging by all the power-holding orbs that were around) effortlessly took down a group of high powered cosmics and decimated thanos (much worse than odin did) until thanos used some of tyrant's own power against him and that STILL wasn't enough. ultimately, tyrant even outsmarted thanos!

i'm not buying what you're selling about onslaught. the whole basis of your argument is that he didn't use all these 'celestial level powers' because of cis. uh-uh. tyrant absorbs him into a sphere and that's that. as kg mentioned, if jean and cable could shield themselves and others from his power, tyrant wouldn't have any problem. if anything, it is easier to label the sun-creation pis because he certainly didn't show that level of power at any other point.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<No, and neither could Tyrant. Tyrant hung with Galactus because the nature of their respective powers made Galactus' attacks strengthen Tyrant. It wasn't because of Tyrant's power LEVEL.

X-man at full potential is his Shaman self, which functions on a level approaching that of Phoenix.>>

he came pretty damn close. at least a portion of his power seems to have to do with energy absorbtion. again, i see no reason why he couldn't absorb the energy form of onslaught. and it wasn't full potential nate that he was dealing with -- had it been, he never would have been able to steal his powers in the first place.

<<A lot of that was CIS, though - bravado made to demonstrate a point. I'm not taking that into consideration for this fight. If Onslaught created the sun inside the Earth's orbit...he would have wiped them out with ease. He didn't because he wanted them to live to "behold his mighty hand"....for whatever reason.>>

there you go with that CIS label again . . .

seems more logical to say he just didn't know how to use frank's powers adequately enough. and if he did it inside the earth's orbit it seems likely he would have killed himself as well.

<<What's speculation about it? We KNOW what Franklin's power level is, what KNOW what X-men's power level is, we KNOW what Xavier's and Magneto's power level is. If there's someone who combines the power of all four, we KNOW what his power level will be - a high level reality warper with access to power exceeding that of a Celestial.

In this fight, we're turning off PIS and CIS.>>

and apparently turning on a lot of WHAT IFs and FULL POTENTIALS. nate wasn't full potential when onslaught had his power. what makes you think he could access his full power? certainly nothing from the story. frank himself didn't know how to use his power effectively. again, what makes you think onslaught could do so? nothing in the story aside from that sun demonstration which was pretty meaningless. onslaught spent most of his time shielding himself in that fight. to claim he didn't wipe them all out because of cis doesn't sit well. facts are facts in the fight. he was injured by the heroes, broken by hulk, absorbed by the heroes. tyrant (no where near full power judging by all the power-holding orbs that were around) effortlessly took down a group of high powered cosmics and decimated thanos (much worse than odin did) until thanos used some of tyrant's own power against him and that STILL wasn't enough. ultimately, tyrant even outsmarted thanos!

i'm not buying what you're selling about onslaught. the whole basis of your argument is that he didn't use all these 'celestial level powers' because of cis. uh-uh. tyrant absorbs him into a sphere and that's that. as kg mentioned, if jean and cable could shield themselves and others from his power, tyrant wouldn't have any problem. if anything, it is easier to label the sun-creation pis because he certainly didn't show that level of power at any other point.

🤓 👆

Originally posted by leonidas
he came pretty damn close. at least a portion of his power seems to have to do with energy absorbtion. again, i see no reason why he couldn't absorb the energy form of onslaught. and it wasn't full potential nate that he was dealing with -- had it been, he never would have been able to steal his powers in the first place.

Tyrant's energy absorption abilities are limited to life energies - the absorbed Galactus' attacks because it was comprised of life energy. He got weaker whenever Galactus ate a planet because it reduced the amount of life energy available on the universe. That's the extent of his absorption. Onslaught's attacks are psionic, eletromagnetic, hyperspatial in nature, and with reality warping, it becomes limitless. So using the Galactus battle isn't a good guage for determine how he could or would fight Onslaught.


<<A lot of that was CIS, though - bravado made to demonstrate a point. I'm not taking that into consideration for this fight. If Onslaught created the sun inside the Earth's orbit...he would have wiped them out with ease. He didn't because he wanted them to live to "behold his mighty hand"....for whatever reason.>>

there you go with that CIS label again . . .

It's true! I use the CIS label all the time! Like in that thread about....no wait, I used it in that debate we had about....no, that's not it...you know something, I NEVER use that CIS label. So I don't know what you're talking about.


seems more logical to say he just didn't know how to use frank's powers adequately enough.

Um....isn't that CIS? And secondly....if you warp reality, all you have to do is WANT it to happen. Franklin created a pocket universe and he doesn't know how to use his own powers. Onslaught could have wished the whole lot of them away to oblivion (or bolivia). But considering that was the last issue of the Onslaught storyline, that wouldn't have been very productive, would it?


and if he did it inside the earth's orbit it seems likely he would have killed himself as well.

Not if you can no longer be physically touched, it's not.


In this fight, we're turning off PIS and CIS.>>

and apparently turning on a lot of WHAT IFs and FULL POTENTIALS. nate wasn't full potential when onslaught had his power. what makes you think he could access his full power? certainly nothing from the story. frank himself didn't know how to use his power effectively. again, what makes you think onslaught could do so? nothing in the story aside from that sun demonstration which was pretty meaningless. onslaught spent most of his time shielding himself in that fight. to claim he didn't wipe them all out because of cis doesn't sit well. facts are facts in the fight. he was injured by the heroes, broken by hulk, absorbed by the heroes. tyrant (no where near full power judging by all the power-holding orbs that were around) effortlessly took down a group of high powered cosmics and decimated thanos (much worse than odin did) until thanos used some of tyrant's own power against him and that STILL wasn't enough. ultimately, tyrant even outsmarted thanos!

This shows that you don't grasp the very nature of Onslaught. Onslaught is a gene vampire - he doesn't steal the POWERS of those he absorbs, he imprints their X-gene. He doesn't take the power level they function at, he takes the mutant ability - it doesn't matter if he didn't take Nate when he was at full potential. Nate becoming full potential was a mental obstacle for him, not a physical one. It doesn't matter if Onslaught took Franklin's power when Franklin didn't know how to use it. If he has Franklin's infinite reality warping X-gene, that means he has accees to Franklin's FULL POWER.

I mean, let's think about this logically, Leon. What are you saying is Onslaught's nature? Are you trying to tell me that we should limit Onslaught to what he's already done? Or are you trying to tell me that we should limit Onslaught to the most that any of the characters he imprinted has done? Where is the line drawn? Onslaught created a small sun within earth's orbit. If your "rules" state that Onslaught is limited to what he's already done, does that mean you'd dismiss me saying that Onslaught could create, say, a small moon in earth's orbit? How about a bigger sun? Are you trying to tell me that Onslaught would be incapable of doing either of those things because he didn't choose to do it in a single storyline? Does that make sense to you?

And if you DO accept that, "yes, Onslaught, by virtue of having made a sun near earth's orbit, should logically be able to make a moon there if he wanted, or a sun of varying sizes if he wanted", then where would YOU draw the line? Can Onslaught make two suns come out of his hand? And if so, could he have shot his every opponent with a mini sun and killed them all? Can Onslaught make a sun right inside earth's orbit? If he wanted to kill everybody, he'd just do that. He wouldn't kill himself in the process because his final state was physically immune.

And if he can do that....why can't he, in his final state, just create a red giant and engulf tyrant entirely?

And if he can create a sun...can he create a planet? If he can create a planet, can he create two? Can he throw those planets at tyrant?

And if he took Franklin's powers, could he also make a pocket universe? Why wouldn't he have that potential?

I think it comes down to our fundamental difference in rules of engagement. I believe that if Onslaught has imprinted the X-genes of four mutants, he has total access to everything they can do...and MORE because of his intellect and ruthlessness, the way that Doomsurfer was able to take SS's power to some crazy level.

It sounds more like you want to limit that arbitrarily, and I just don't agree with that. Onslaught was at his most powerful for an issue and a half...of course we aren't going to see everything he could do in 45 pages of super crossover. It's not correct to limit him as such.

Onslaught wishes Tyrant away.

Onslaught wishes Tyrant away.

maybe with Santa's help

Originally posted by kgkg
maybe with Santa's help

Maybe. But then Onslaught creates Santa and wishes him away.

Originally posted by Acrosurge
I disagree with this. A full-powered Galactus is up there in power with Eternity and Death (in fact, he's the balance between the two). Tyrant was able to fight and injure a well-fed Galactus, which would indicate that Tyrant is greater than a Celestial.

I admit that the Cosmic Hierchy is open to speculation. Besides the Living Tribunal, Death, Infinity, and Eternity, no clear hierchy has been stated for Marvel's upper Cosmic characters.

Tyrant was at full-power when he hurt Big G. Then he lost, got depowered, and is down around Skyfather level. Just some food for thought.

There's some heavy discussion between demi and leo...don't have time to read and discuss.

But I'd agree with demi's assesment of "Any Onslaught with Franklin Richards is capable of beating Tyrant" argument. Otherwise Tyrant would probably win....and Onslaught needs to come back and be done right this time.

<<Are you trying to tell me that we should limit Onslaught to what he's already done?>>

of course i am. that is what has been SHOWN. anything else is pure speculation. i'd love a scan of this whole x-gene energy vampire effect, btw. it's why i stay away from superman prime/1M threads. in the end, it's all speculation and unproveable.

<<then where would YOU draw the line?>>

at the point where he could beat tyrant. or at the point where his power seemed to tap out. which from all that was shown is not at tyrant's level. i'd also like to see a scan showing proof of your explanation about tyrant's powers. i've never heard that anywhere before. certainly nothing is mentioned in his origin issue in cosmic powers. what IS mentioned is that his battle with galactus destroyed GALAXIES. you can see onslaught destroying a galaxy after he couldn't even beat the hulk? tyrant beat thanos who had stolen his power and he never even dipped into his OWN power reserves. odin could also create a sun. tyrant would beat odin as well.

<<just create a red giant and engulf tyrant entirely?>>

tyrant's battle destroyed galaxies -- not much a single sun will do.

<<I think it comes down to our fundamental difference in rules of engagement. I believe that if Onslaught has imprinted the X-genes of four mutants, he has total access to everything they can do... >>

you're right about that. you're very good at speculating and supposing, but i'll go by the books. the xmen hurt him in one of his weaker incarnations. hulk beat him at the height of his physical power. ss himself has effectively battled a godlike cable. ss<<<<<<<<<<<<tyrant, so i don't see why any psionic power onslaught has would bother tyrant. frank himself has never done the things you attribute to him (ie wishing foes out of creation) and you expect me to buy that onslaught could do it? uh-uh. could frank potentially do it? maybe. i see no proof that would show just because frank MIGHT be able to do so, that onslaught could. because he can do (a) it necessarily follows he can do b, c, d, e? again, not buying it.

and the difference between the doomsurfer is we SAW him realize that potential. onslaught never had the chance. there is every bit as good a chance that he COULDN'T access the powers you speak of for whatever reason. we'll never know.

pure speculation that he could do most of what you say he MIGHT be capable of. speculation is all well and fine, except when it is treated/stated as fact. you surmise based on POTENTIAL onslaught could beat tyrant. i read the issues, compare the characters AS SHOWN, compare feats and say tyrant beats onslaught. feats vs potential. which is a more solidly based foundation on which to debate?

ultimately, it boils down to this:

IF he could use the powers you say, than the whole onslaught story is CIS/PIS because he could have killed them anytime (though he did seem to try hard on a couple occasions -- but he barely overloaded bishop). if so, where do YOU draw the line on pis? is every flash book pis? is every ss book pis because he doesn't speedblitz and hit with planet destroying attacks or put all his foes in his surfboard or alter them all at the genetic level to make them peaceful instead of villainous? glads because he doesn't speedblitz? you can't argue on potential. once you open that door there's no turning back.

again, based on what was shown of the 2 tyrant wins.