Onslaught vs. tyrant

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Are you trying to tell me that we should limit Onslaught to what he's already done?>>

of course i am. that is what has been SHOWN. anything else is pure speculation. i'd love a scan of this whole x-gene energy vampire effect, btw. it's why i stay away from superman prime/1M threads. in the end, it's all speculation and unproveable.

The entire premise of the battle becomes unfair if you do that. Onslaught in his final form appeared in a single issue, and with Franklin's reality control powers he only appeared for two issues. Tyrant appeared over the course of months. Your attempt to judge only by feat comparison will always favor the older character, and I don't agree with that. Does Tyrant have better battle feats? Of course! He was was around for months, vs. FF Onslaught, who was around for five pages. When dealing with characters with limited appearances, you HAVE to go by an analysis of what theirs powers are.

You keep going on and on about my speculation. This is a battle board, Leon....the whole thing IS speculation! You have to look not just at feats, but an analysis of their powers and abilities. You have to look at the circumstanaces of those feats, the nature of the powers - does one take advantage of another? Is one person limited to physical attacks fighting someone immune to them? There are multiple dimensions to analyzing a fight, and I wholeheartedly reject the notion that you simply say, "this person has done this and therefore it's impossible to assume that he can do anything else, despite having access to power that we KNOW goes beyond that". There are far too many dimensions.

I look at it this way. Here are the dimensions:

1)On panel feats
2)Level of power available
3)Nature of power (life energy vs. death; water vs. electricity; fire vs. water)
4)character analysis/motivation
5)PIS/CIS factors

You're not getting past #1. When looking at #1, does Tyrant have the edge? Yes! He's older! But I'm looking at all five. And when weighed, I objectively see Onslaught as having a greater chance of winning. He has access to power matching or exceeding that of the Celestials, COMBINED with power approaching that of the Phoenix, combined with the intellect/strategy/ruthlessness of two premier thinkers in the Marvel Universe. That level of power exceeds that available to Tyrant, the nature of power circumvents that which played into Tyrant's best fight, the analysis of the Onslaught's personality makes it that he would not hold back against Tyrant, meaning he would bring his power full bore, and we know that Tyrant doesn't have any on panel feats fighting psionics in the first place. Those are five dimensions, and four of them point to Onslaught.

<<then where would YOU draw the line?>>

at the point where he could beat tyrant. or at the point where his power seemed to tap out. which from all that was shown is not at tyrant's level.

But where did his power seem to tap out? When was Onslaught unable to do something once in possession of Franklin's power? He fought Mindless Hulk, knocked him down and stood there gloating while holding him. He created a second sun. THere was never a situation in which Onslaught said, "Let me make a sun....uggh...this one is too big, I'll have to try for a smaller one". It never happened....so at what point do you think his power tapped out?

i'd also like to see a scan showing proof of your explanation about tyrant's powers. i've never heard that anywhere before. certainly nothing is mentioned in his origin issue in cosmic powers. what IS mentioned is that his battle with galactus destroyed GALAXIES. you can see onslaught destroying a galaxy after he couldn't even beat the hulk? tyrant beat thanos who had stolen his power and he never even dipped into his OWN power reserves. odin could also create a sun. tyrant would beat odin as well.

I don't have a scanner, but ask around. I'm sure kgkg would know. Morg found a planet for Galactus to feed on, and Tyrant felt it from lightyears away and it injured him. Later on, when they actually fought, Galactus eyeblasted Tyrant, who said that Galactus shot him with the very energies that empower Tyrant, who went on to slash Galactus in his mouth. In the issue after that, Morg got the Ultimate Nullifier and threatened to use it. I gave a detailed description, so it has to ring a bell. Find the issue and read it...you'll see what I'm saying.

<<just create a red giant and engulf tyrant entirely?>>

tyrant's battle destroyed galaxies -- not much a single sun will do.

But he was hurt by Terrax and some girl with a stick.

ss himself has effectively battled a godlike cable. ss<<<<<<<<<<<<tyrant, so i don't see why any psionic power onslaught has would bother tyrant.

Ah, but there no on panel feats showing Tyrant actively resisting psionic power, right? So then you're supposing and speculating that Tyrant can resist it, right?

frank himself has never done the things you attribute to him (ie wishing foes out of creation) and you expect me to buy that onslaught could do it? uh-uh. could frank potentially do it? maybe. i see no proof that would show just because frank MIGHT be able to do so, that onslaught could.

Franklin never created a sun, either. But again...when you have reality control powers on a galactic scale, it's all pretty much an open book. When you have the power approaching that of the Phoenix, and you ALSO have the power that Celestials have compared to themselves, both of whom are at the apex of power among the physical beings of the universe, I can't possibly see how you would discount that person. Onslaught's energies separated Hulk into two people. Franklin created a pocket universe and placed the entire lineup of Avengers, Fantastic Four and others inside of them, where he CREATED Galactus within it. Onslaught has that same power, and you're telling me that there's insufficient proof that Onslaught would be capable of blinking away Tyrant? With the power comparable to Phoenix AND power comparable to Celestials? Seriously?

and the difference between the doomsurfer is we SAW him realize that potential. onslaught never had the chance. there is every bit as good a chance that he COULDN'T access the powers you speak of for whatever reason. we'll never know.

If he created a second sun, and he created a citadel out of scratch, then we know that his reality manipulation powers worked fine. If he showed the ability, in destruction of his physical form, that his energies are capable of reality manipulating the Hulk into two forms, then we know his reality manipulation powers worked fine.

Again, I ask - if Onslaught can make a sun appear in the sky, can he make a moon appear, even though he didn't do it?

IF he could use the powers you say, than the whole onslaught story is CIS/PIS because he could have killed them anytime (though he did seem to try hard on a couple occasions -- but he barely overloaded bishop). if so, where do YOU draw the line on pis?

I take it into consideration with every battle. When Quasar is able to fight Galactus on even terms, it's clearly PIS. When Galactus has an extended battle with the Avengers and gets hurt, it's clearly PIS. When Thor chases Galactus off by nearly killing him, it's PIS. BUT, they're things that I take into consideration, but they're mitigated by the other dimensions that I named above. When you balance the factors, there's no need to make a line anywhere. Onslaught never fought the cosmic powers, but that's not what he was there to do. It doesn't mean he couldn't do it. So you have to balance that by asking, "What ARE Onslaughts powers?" and you balance that by asking, "How likely is it that Onslaught would use those powers in this scenario?", and you balance that by asking, "What instances in the past can we dismiss as being under or overexaggerations of his power?", and when put together, you have as close an analysis as you're going to get.

That's why saying that Flash will speedblitz your opponent at the beginning of the fight IS generally accepted, and that's also why saying that Wolverine will walk through nuke level attacks and gut your opponent is NOT, despite both happening equally rarely.

And like i said before, taking all dimensions into consideration, Onslaught is more likely to win.

Gotta remember during this argument boys, that Onslaught has Magneto's power in him, so demi's Godlike fanboy-killing Magneto fantasy would be true if he came back...

🙂

demi, explain the difference here:

leo says invisible woman can block tp.

demi says i don't believe it, prove it.

leo says she has done many things very close and in one issue even prevented franklin from entering her mind.

demi says prove it.

leo shows scans.

demi says pis.

leo says but she has also blocked almost every other kind of energy and even shown to be able to block tk a form of psionic power -- not to mention the scan showing she kept out franklin.
demi says tk is a different form of energy.

leo says but isn't it logical to assume (since she blocked everything else out including forms of psionic energy) that she could likely block tp?

demi says prove it.

well, she blocks most energies (a), she blocks forms of psionic energy (b), why not assume she can block (c) tp energy? why is it that THAT supposition requires verifiable proof, but your assumption (that he can actually access all this power) doesn't?

<<You keep going on and on about my speculation. This is a battle board, Leon....the whole thing IS speculation!>>

that's perfect. serioulsy, all i needed to hear.

<<1)On panel feats
2)Level of power available
3)Nature of power (life energy vs. death; water vs. electricity; fire vs. water)
4)character analysis/motivation
5)PIS/CIS factors>>

all right:

on panel feats: tyrant, we both agree.

level of power available: you say onslaught, i say onslaught's is unknown and if i were to predict a limit based on what was shown i would say he has shown some ability to alter reality on a planetary scale -- maybe skyfather (which i argued with gs, maybe even cosmic cube). nothing indicates he can alter it beyond that. in contrast to that, he HAS shown weaknesses, (are these weaknesses all attributable to pis?) has been injured (pis?) and had to strain his powers in one case (pis?) by saying tyrant is likely beyond his psionic touch -- g created tyrant and ss with power cosmic. seems logical to say tyrant (who is well above ss) would also be immune. he also has shown psionic powers in the past. a speculation, but not a great one.

nature of power: when g feasts and absorbs the life force of all living beings, does that not include their psyches? does g feed and leave behind this cloud of psionic energy because he couldn't digest it? psionic energy is just another energy associated with life. why wouldn't he be able to absorb it? tyrant uses power cosmic which if utilized to its potential can have practically limitless effects.

character analysis: won't have much to do with the outcome, i don't think.

cis/pis: well, either the whole thing is pis, or it isn't. i prefer to say no, it isn't. the ending sucked (but stephen king endings and crighton endings suck) but i wouldn't call it pis.

<<"Let me make a sun....uggh...this one is too big, I'll have to try for a smaller one". It never happened....so at what point do you think his power tapped out?>>

but he WAS hurt in other ways. no one hurt tyrant. onslaught was actually overcome by hulk and even his other form was held by the heroes. if the heroes could hold it, why not an orb? then tyrant just blasts the orb to crap.

<<Again, I ask - if Onslaught can make a sun appear in the sky, can he make a moon appear, even though he didn't do it?>>

maybe. or maybe he would grow tired. or maybe he wouldn't be able to access the full power. you can't deny these things as possible because we don't know. it was never shown. i didn't see any verification of the vampire thing.

you were right earlier. we see this fundamentally differently. i think you can only carry speculation so far. someone capable of proven planetary reality feats can take out someone capable of galactic destruction? too much of -- he does (a) so he can automatically do b, c, d.

about the only midground i might consider is this: it is possible onslaught was too new to his powers to use them fully. even that though comes with all sorts of asuumptions about where his power might have ended.

damn, we're getting into essay lengths!! gs really DOES get the last laugh . . . 😄

<<But I'd agree with demi's assesment of "Any Onslaught with Franklin Richards is capable of beating Tyrant" argument. Otherwise Tyrant would probably win....and Onslaught needs to come back and be done right this time.>>

et tu, digi?

😄

s'all right: i got kg! 😛

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Tyrant was at full-power when he hurt Big G. Then he lost, got depowered, and is down around Skyfather level. Just some food for thought.

Tyrant was more powerful originally and he got beat by Big G. He was depowered to sky father level afterwards. And people still argue Odin vs Galactus.

Originally posted by leonidas
demi, explain the difference here:

leo says invisible woman can block tp.

demi says i don't believe it, prove it.

leo says she has done many things very close and in one issue even prevented franklin from entering her mind.

demi says prove it.

leo shows scans.

demi says pis.

leo says but she has also blocked almost every other kind of energy and even shown to be able to block tk a form of psionic power -- not to mention the scan showing she kept out franklin.
demi says tk is a different form of energy.

leo says but isn't it logical to assume (since she blocked everything else out including forms of psionic energy) that she could likely block tp?

demi says prove it.

well, she blocks most energies (a), she blocks forms of psionic energy (b), why not assume she can block (c) tp energy? why is it that THAT supposition requires verifiable proof, but your assumption (that he can actually access all this power) doesn't?

Here's the difference. Psionic energy is a broad category - they're forms of energy that originate from the mind. There are telepaths - those who manipulate telepathic psionic energy, and telekinetics - those who manipulate tekelinetic psionic energy. Not very many are both, and there's a reason for that....they're not the same energy.

It's like saying that something that blocks out microwaves should be effective in blocking gamma waves because they're both electromagnetic energy.

There's a huge difference between telepathic energy and telekinetic energy. When someone hits you with a telekinetic blast, you go "ouch!" because it hits your body...it hits your physical form. If someone has shown the ability to block physical attacks, it stands to reason that it would include all manner of physical attacks, including telekinetic attacks, which are physical.

On the other hand, when someone hits you with a telepathic blast, you say, "MY MIIIIIIIIIND"....or you fall asleep....because a telepathic blast is NOT physical. If you block physical attacks, you can block physical attacks. It has nothing to do with your defense against mental attacks. To assume that just because someone can block a telekinetic attack means they can block a telepathic attack, despite the fact that Marvel has gone through great pains to explain that the two aren't the same, goes beyond speculation....it's incorrect.

In the case of Onslaught, my "speculation" is that if he's using the powers of a cosmic-scale reality warper and a phoenix-level psionic, then, given the opportunity that he never actually had, he should be able to both match and exceed the feats of both. This, in turn, is based on and reinforced by the notion that he'd been using the powers of a planetary scale EM manipulator and a top level telepath for several issues prior and exceeded the feats of both. IF he has access to the powers of all four, and he showed a level of mastery over the two he had the longest that exceeded what either of the two themselves achieved, am I "speculating" that he should be able to do what the other two have done, and more? If by speculating you mean, "Has Onslaught done any reality manipulating that would specifically be used effectively in a battle against Tyrant", then yes, I'm "speculating". If Onslaught didn't fight anybody on Tyrant's level, why would he need to reach any deeper into his bag of tricks? Create a sun, talk some smack, don't work too hard.

Your belief that the Invisible Woman's success at blocking a telekinetic attack would show that she can block a telepathic attack isn't in the same remote ballpark as my belief that Onslaught, having access to the powers of four individuals and saying he has all of their power, can do everything that they can do, despite them both being loosely defined as "speculation".

And as for the Psi-Lord ordeal...I dismissed it because she showed SEVERAL powers she doesn't have. It shows that there had to be some kind of factor that Malace had to do with. You yourself admitted that you can't account for Sue INITIATING a telepathic attack on Psi-Lord. It shows that there was something going on with her mental abilities that is out of the ordinary for her. As such, those feats can't be trusted as normal abilities.

I can't BELIEVE you made me devote all this space to that OLD thread! Let it go! 🙂

<<1)On panel feats
2)Level of power available
3)Nature of power (life energy vs. death; water vs. electricity; fire vs. water)
4)character analysis/motivation
5)PIS/CIS factors>>

level of power available: you say onslaught, i say onslaught's is unknown and if i were to predict a limit based on what was shown i would say he has shown some ability to alter reality on a planetary scale -- maybe skyfather (which i argued with gs, maybe even cosmic cube). nothing indicates he can alter it beyond that. in contrast to that, he HAS shown weaknesses, (are these weaknesses all attributable to pis?) has been injured (pis?) and had to strain his powers in one case (pis?) by saying tyrant is likely beyond his psionic touch -- g created tyrant and ss with power cosmic. seems logical to say tyrant (who is well above ss) would also be immune. he also has shown psionic powers in the past. a speculation, but not a great one.

Here's the problem - you're basing "level of power available" on "amount of power shown", so you're making this answer equivalent to dimension #1. Nobody goes all out to complete basic tasks. Just because you've seen me lift a weight at the gym doesn't mean that's the most I can lift....it's just all I've needed to lift.

Let's take this a step further...you saw me copy the powers of Carl Lewis last week and run the 200 meters 2 seconds FASTER than he ever did. If, this week, you KNOW I copied the powers of Ronnie Coleman (champion bodybuilder), and you see me still lift 100lbs, are you honestly going to assume that 100lbs is all I can lift? Or is it more logical to assume that I'm on my warmup set, or that I have some purpose in choosing to lift only 100lbs? Honestly!

Onslaught has the power of four of the most powerful mutants in history, and you're saying that it's inaccurate for me to believe that Onslaught can do anything other than creating a mini-sun?

All the cases you've cited where he's strained to use his power were in previous forms of Onslaught. We're only debating the post-FR Onslaught, so they don't apply.

nature of power: when g feasts and absorbs the life force of all living beings, does that not include their psyches? does g feed and leave behind this cloud of psionic energy because he couldn't digest it? psionic energy is just another energy associated with life. why wouldn't he be able to absorb it? tyrant uses power cosmic which if utilized to its potential can have practically limitless effects.

I eat chicken and I DON'T absorb psyches and *I* don't leave behind a cloud of psionic energy whenever I leave KFC. I leave behind a cloud of a different type. 😉

But I see what you're saying. You're saying that even though Tyrant hasn't used any psionic types of attacks or shown resistence to psionic attacks, because he has the power cosmic, a power shared by Galactus who HAS used psionic attacks and shown resistence to psionic attacks, that it stands to reason that Tyrant can both withstand and mount psionic attacks too, right? That's what you're saying, right?

Be VERY careful how you answer that.... 😈

character analysis: won't have much to do with the outcome, i don't think.

In this case, no because they're both experts in their abilities, and have the ruthlessness to do what is necessary to win. In Onslaught's case, that means stepping up his game, because he knows he's not fighting a bunch of Enhanced Metas and some heralds anymore. And that leads to a greater inclination to use feats that exceed what he's shown in #1

cis/pis: well, either the whole thing is pis, or it isn't. i prefer to say no, it isn't. the ending sucked (but stephen king endings and crighton endings suck) but i wouldn't call it pis.

I don't think it's an all or nothing thing at all. I think Onslaught reached a point where he was too powerful, so they had to invent a way to win AND reboot the Marvel Universe with five pages to go. Psionic beings have never shown a weakness where people can jump into them and absorb them. It's never had any effect in the past. So that's PIS. And his lack of inclination to do more than posture when he had the heroes down and out is likewise PIS. He wasn't defeated by the collection of power, he was defeated by a deux ex machina. With an objective analysis of the situation, Onslaught would telekinetically smash everybody's telepathic blocks, and then mindblast them to death. He didn't, and thus everybody was able to be mentally untouchable by him. We know better.

I'm sure similar principles apply to Tyrant, who had the option of killing Surfer and the others if he wanted to.

<<"Let me make a sun....uggh...this one is too big, I'll have to try for a smaller one". It never happened....so at what point do you think his power tapped out?>>

but he WAS hurt in other ways. no one hurt tyrant. onslaught was actually overcome by hulk and even his other form was held by the heroes. if the heroes could hold it, why not an orb? then tyrant just blasts the orb to crap.

When have orbs shown the ability to hold psionic beings? And why does Tyrant get access to orbs? That's like saying Onslaught has held people captive on the Astral Plane and taken their powers....why can't he do that to Tyrant?

The Hulk who hurt Onslaught was Mindless Hulk, a being with "infinite" strength. Onslaught, despite his million powers, engaged Mindless Hulk physically. If Tyrant had engaged Mindless Hulk using only physical powers...he would have lost too, considering he was staggered by Terrax on several occasions.

<<Again, I ask - if Onslaught can make a sun appear in the sky, can he make a moon appear, even though he didn't do it?>>

maybe. or maybe he would grow tired. or maybe he wouldn't be able to access the full power. you can't deny these things as possible because we don't know. it was never shown. i didn't see any verification of the vampire thing.

The thing about Onslaught is, you HAVE to argue possibilities with him because his final forms only showed up in one issue. To say that Onslaught can't do any more than making a sun exactly the same size as the one he already made, and he can't build a citadel any larger than the one he made, and he can create a psionic maelstrom any more powerful than the one had already made because it's "possible" he CAN'T make any of those any bigger ignores whom he's getting his power from. He's not getting telekinetic power from Vance Astro. He's not getting his reality-manipulating powers from Proteus. He's getting it from "extinguish a star by thinking it" X-Man and "re-create Galactus" Franklin Richards. That fact MUST be respected and taken into account, especially when Onslaught has already established a pattern of exceeding the capabilities of those from whom he derived his power.

you were right earlier. we see this fundamentally differently. i think you can only carry speculation so far. someone capable of proven planetary reality feats can take out someone capable of galactic destruction? too much of -- he does (a) so he can automatically do b, c, d.

But if someone who has shown planetary feats but using the powers of people capable of UNIVERSAL feats is fighting someone capable of galactic destruction - how is it speculating too much to suggest that the planetary feats aren't the most he is capable of?

about the only midground i might consider is this: it is possible onslaught was too new to his powers to use them fully. even that though comes with all sorts of asuumptions about where his power might have ended.

I just see it this way - Onslaught has shown a record of, after a couple of issues, exceeding the capabilities of the people whose powers he's stolen. He out telepathed Xavier and schooled Joseph in the art of electromagnetics. That means that at the very least, Onslaught has access to the full power of anybody he absorbed. And it means it's very likely that he can even exceed it. The reason he didn't was that he didn't absorb the powers of the other two until the end of the run....there wasn't an opportunity to fit in a whole catalogue of feats. So where his lifespan is limited, you have to analyze his history to determine where he future would go had he lived and came up upon Tyrant. That's what I'm doing, and I don't think I've stretched the limits of assumption at all in saying that Onslaught has access to the combined might of Xavier, Magneto, X-Man and Franklin Richards - power exceeding that of Tyrant.

<<But I see what you're saying. You're saying that even though Tyrant hasn't used any psionic types of attacks or shown resistence to psionic attacks, because he has the power cosmic, a power shared by Galactus who HAS used psionic attacks and shown resistence to psionic attacks, that it stands to reason that Tyrant can both withstand and mount psionic attacks too, right? That's what you're saying, right?>>

what i'm saying is that psionic energy is energy (life energy) and as such i don't see why tyrant couldn't absorb it.

<<All the cases you've cited where he's strained to use his power were in previous forms of Onslaught. We're only debating the post-FR Onslaught, so they don't apply.>>

he had frank when he fought hulk.

<<Psionic beings have never shown a weakness where people can jump into them and absorb them.>>

onslaught is unique. he may have other weaknesses that were also never explored. and you're talking out of your arse to say that he used mag's and x's powers to greater levels than they have ever shown. x has done some massive things in the past, mag's even moreso. he didn't match their highest feats.

<<Onslaught has the power of four of the most powerful mutants in history, and you're saying that it's inaccurate for me to believe that Onslaught can do anything other than creating a mini-sun?>>

not at all. i agree he might be able to do more. but wink out a being of tyrant's powers? that is too big a leap.

<<With an objective analysis of the situation, Onslaught would telekinetically smash everybody's telepathic blocks, and then mindblast them to death. He didn't, and thus everybody was able to be mentally untouchable by him. We know better.>>

why would we know better? x's powers have been blocked. nate's powers have been blocked. and if nate has this 'shaman' potential, why doesn't he operate at that level? if onslaught can suddenly decide to use nate's 'full' power, why can't nate himself?

<<When have orbs shown the ability to hold psionic beings?>>

psionic beings are just energy beings. why wouldn't it hild him? and i'm guessing that tyrant actually creates tha orbs rather than actually has a bunch of metal balls hanging aroud that he sticks things in.

<<considering he was staggered by Terrax on several occasions.>>

not really. and it doesn't matter. we're talking tyrant at peak power. they never fought him at that level. he was weak when he trashed thanos, though he appeared to have an enormous amount of power waiting to be used by all the orbs at the end.

<<But if someone who has shown planetary feats but using the powers of people capable of UNIVERSAL feats is fighting someone capable of galactic destruction - how is it speculating too much to suggest that the planetary feats aren't the most he is capable of?>>

because he never showed an ability to access all their power, and he was defeated by beings much less powerful than he was and the only way to reconcile that is deux ex machina or pis which might as well be the same thing. and i can't say it was pis because to say it is pis implies that onslaught has all this unused power you keep discussing but that he simply chose not to use when he never demonstrated universal level power in the first place. again, once you start throwing around the pis label, you really need to be careful where it takes you.

<<I can't BELIEVE you made me devote all this space to that OLD thread! Let it go!>>

thought it would be fun for old time's sake . . . and there was a much simpler flaw in my bringing it up than the longwinded one you tried to point out . . .

😄

bottom line: based on all i read and saw of onslaught he couldn't beat tyrant. is it CONCEIVEABLE he could use all of frank's powers (which would make everyone else's needless and obsolete) i suppose it is CONCEIVEABLE. but given all that happened to him, and the times the heroes were able to muddle around inside him and thwart him, despite his reaching his 'highest level', i'd say the chance is very very remote.

This is beginning to look like GS&#8217;s posts

Originally posted by leonidas
<<But I see what you're saying. You're saying that even though Tyrant hasn't used any psionic types of attacks or shown resistence to psionic attacks, because he has the power cosmic, a power shared by Galactus who HAS used psionic attacks and shown resistence to psionic attacks, that it stands to reason that Tyrant can both withstand and mount psionic attacks too, right? That's what you're saying, right?>>

what i'm saying is that psionic energy is energy (life energy) and as such i don't see why tyrant couldn't absorb it.

Who said psionic energy is life energy? Life energy is pretty specific - it's what Galactus feeds on. If he were able to simply absorb psionics like it were life energy, he wouldn't have lost to Phoenix, who uses psionic attacks of similar level to....Nate Grey, whose powers are in the custody of....Onslaught.

So if Galactus was unable to absorb psionic attacks, and indeed was pretty severely hurt by it, I can't see you just dismissing psionic attacks altogether as an option against Tyrant.

<<All the cases you've cited where he's strained to use his power were in previous forms of Onslaught. We're only debating the post-FR Onslaught, so they don't apply.>>

he had frank when he fought hulk.

Yes, and chose to engage him physically only, out of miscalculated bravado. Like I said, I don't think Tyrant would be able to stand up to Mindless Hulk in a physical match, either.

and you're talking out of your arse to say that he used mag's and x's powers to greater levels than they have ever shown. x has done some massive things in the past, mag's even moreso. he didn't match their highest feats.

X never pulled anybody from the physical world into the Astral Plane, and he never pulled somebody from the Astral Plane to the physical world. Onslaught did both. Magneto never generated the sheer amount of magnetic strength necessary to KO Juggernaut by sending him across multiple states. Magneto's biggest physical strength feat was knocking out Beast. Onslaught outdid him. Onslaught also instantly repelled Joseph like he was nothing using sheer magnetism.

<<Onslaught has the power of four of the most powerful mutants in history, and you're saying that it's inaccurate for me to believe that Onslaught can do anything other than creating a mini-sun?>>

not at all. i agree he might be able to do more. but wink out a being of tyrant's powers? that is too big a leap.

I was being facetious, but if Franklin was able to re-create Galactus when Galactus was dead, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to do the opposite if necessary.

<<With an objective analysis of the situation, Onslaught would telekinetically smash everybody's telepathic blocks, and then mindblast them to death. He didn't, and thus everybody was able to be mentally untouchable by him. We know better.>>

why would we know better? x's powers have been blocked. nate's powers have been blocked. and if nate has this 'shaman' potential, why doesn't he operate at that level? if onslaught can suddenly decide to use nate's 'full' power, why can't nate himself?

For the same reason Emma, using Bobby's body, was able to do far more with his powers than Bobby had ever done. And the same reason why Doom, using Surfer's powers, used them to more devastating effect than Surfer had done. They're smarter, more ruthless, more inclined to explore their limits. Onslaught fits that psychological profile, and that's why I saw Onslaught would be more capable of unlocking Nate's shaman potential than Nate himself would.

<<When have orbs shown the ability to hold psionic beings?>>

psionic beings are just energy beings. why wouldn't it hild him? and i'm guessing that tyrant actually creates tha orbs rather than actually has a bunch of metal balls hanging aroud that he sticks things in.

But when has he specifically sucked an energy being of any type into an orb?

<<considering he was staggered by Terrax on several occasions.>>

not really. and it doesn't matter. we're talking tyrant at peak power. they never fought him at that level. he was weak when he trashed thanos, though he appeared to have an enormous amount of power waiting to be used by all the orbs at the end.

tyrant at "peak" power is just as subject to speculation as Onslaught, then. But we also know that whatever his power level is, it was less than Galactus', and he had an advantage of being strengthened by the life energies Galactus was hitting him with. It was a bad style matchup, more than a real battle of peers, IMO.

<<But if someone who has shown planetary feats but using the powers of people capable of UNIVERSAL feats is fighting someone capable of galactic destruction - how is it speculating too much to suggest that the planetary feats aren't the most he is capable of?>>

because he never showed an ability to access all their power, and he was defeated by beings much less powerful than he was and the only way to reconcile that is deux ex machina or pis which might as well be the same thing. and i can't say it was pis because to say it is pis implies that onslaught has all this unused power you keep discussing but that he simply chose not to use when he never demonstrated universal level power in the first place. again, once you start throwing around the pis label, you really need to be careful where it takes you.

I've mentioned examples where he has accessed the full power and then some of the two beings he was using when he made majority of his apppearances. At the end, he took two more and was steadily topping himself with feats before the storyline came to an end. If you look at that momentum (escalating feats) and use that as a point of reference back to how he operated in the beginning with X and Mags powers (escalating feats), then do you really think it's unreasonable for me to believe that he was well on his way to mastering Franklin and Nate's powers the way he did Xavier and Magneto's?

bottom line: based on all i read and saw of onslaught he couldn't beat tyrant. is it CONCEIVEABLE he could use all of frank's powers (which would make everyone else's needless and obsolete) i suppose it is CONCEIVEABLE. but given all that happened to him, and the times the heroes were able to muddle around inside him and thwart him, despite his reaching his 'highest level', i'd say the chance is very very remote.

The only part where I'm willing to compromise is if we say, "Full power Tyrant vs. Onslaught with the level of knowledge and comfort he had with his powers by the end of the Onslaught storyline", because it was clear he was still experimenting when everything came to an abrupt halt. In that case, and in that case alone, I agree that Tyrant would win on experience.

But if we were to say "Full power Tyrant vs. Onslaught with mastery over his powers", there's no way I can see Tyrant winning.

<<The only part where I'm willing to compromise is if we say, "Full power Tyrant vs. Onslaught with the level of knowledge and comfort he had with his powers by the end of the Onslaught storyline", because it was clear he was still experimenting when everything came to an abrupt halt. In that case, and in that case alone, I agree that Tyrant would win on experience.

But if we were to say "Full power Tyrant vs. Onslaught with mastery over his powers", there's no way I can see Tyrant winning.>>

fair 'nuff, then. though i think if we looked back we could find instances where mags and x used their powers in more impressive ways than we saw. i'd be more inclined to say they tend to hold back (at least in x's case) while onslaught did not. but mags and x are irrelevent here. it's frank's power and the extent to which he possessed it v tyrant. maybe nate's 'full power'.

<<But when has he specifically sucked an energy being of any type into an orb?>>

into an orb? not been shown. but he was absorbing power from bill (magic) ss, and glads (a form of psionic power, hmm . . .?) to power his forces and his ship. easy enough to say he could siphon their energy into orbs. and people keep saying g beat him -- g weakened him to the point where he was bested by OTHERS. and g did not fair well either. g also admitted the chance that tyrant would defeat him in a rematch. tyrant is crazy tough.

but . . . you're right of course -- tyrant IS open to speculation. i'd say there is a chance he is even MORE powerful (or will be) then when he fought galactus that first time. that single small orb thanos used gave him enormous power. imagine when tyrant uses all of them . . . he seems to be biding his time.

anyway, i've said it before -- it's never dull when you're around, demi. 😉

onslaught

Originally posted by leonidas
fair 'nuff, then. though i think if we looked back we could find instances where mags and x used their powers in more impressive ways than we saw.

I know Magneto better than just about anybody...I'd know. 😉

I think to clarify a bit more - Onslaught used X and Mag's powers in ways that they never had and in manners more impressively than either. Remember, Xavier himself thought it was impossible to move a physical body in and out of the Astral Plane.

i'd be more inclined to say they tend to hold back (at least in x's case) while onslaught did not. but mags and x are irrelevent here. it's frank's power and the extent to which he possessed it v tyrant. maybe nate's 'full power'.

I agree. It's that ruthlessness that leads him to feats that surpass the individuals. It's also the combination of powers, too. But mags and x are relevant in that it establishes precedent and motive - Onslaught has shown a willingness and capabilty to match and/or exceed the feats of Xavier or Magneto. If he can do it with them, it's logical to conclude that, given the opportunity, he'd do it with Nate and Franklin.

<<But when has he specifically sucked an energy being of any type into an orb?>>

into an orb? not been shown. but he was absorbing power from bill (magic) ss, and glads (a form of psionic power, hmm . . .?) to power his forces and his ship. easy enough to say he could siphon their energy into orbs.

But that only proves that Onslaught's energy from his battle with Tyrant could power his ship...not that it could be snatched from Onslaught unwillingly.

but . . . you're right of course -- tyrant IS open to speculation. i'd say there is a chance he is even MORE powerful (or will be) then when he fought galactus that first time. that single small orb thanos used gave him enormous power. imagine when tyrant uses all of them . . . he seems to be biding his time.

What ended up happening to Tyrant, anyway? I can't remember his fate.

anyway, i've said it before -- it's never dull when you're around, demi. 😉

Likewise! You're one of my favorite opponents!

Onslaught wishes Tyrant away.

Onslaught wishes his armor away...oh wait, he didn't. He needed help from Hulk. 😂

Onslaught wishes from more planets? 😆 Next up, Onslaught wishes the Infinity Gauntlet into his possession.

<<If he can do it with them, it's logical to conclude that, given the opportunity, he'd do it with Nate and Franklin.>>

difference is he was BORN/FASHIONED of mag's and x so knew them intimately. no such advantage when he steals powers.

<<What ended up happening to Tyrant, anyway? I can't remember his fate.>>

nothing happened to him. last i saw him (cosmic powers ltd) he was hanging out with those hundreds/thousands of orbs. in earlier appearances he had alluded to his biding his time and making ready to stretch out his power. not sure if he's had a more recent appearance. kg might know since it would likely have been in ss. maybe beyonder would know.

<<Likewise! You're one of my favorite opponents!>>

HA! thanks. i'll take that as a compliment.

Tyrant absorbs his powers end of story. Tyrant 10/10