Marvel Hierarchy revised as of December 2005

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Whirly at the end of the day the handbook and the comics state what they say.

Exactly and your interpretation of them like the picture of people kneeling before the Phoenix which was only the Strangers fears and not canon are often flawed. Support on panel depends on the full story, you pick and choose, "retconn" is only canon if its supported in the handbook. Your ideas often have not been... So you have at times twisted things to try and make them fit, this destroys all your credibility.

😐

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Exactly and your interpretation of them like the picture of people kneeling before the Phoenix which was only the Strangers fears and not canon are often flawed. Support on panel depends on the full story, you pick and choose, "retconn" is only canon if its supported in the handbook. Your ideas often have not been... So you have at times twisted things to try and make them fit, this destroys all your credibility.

😐

I thought you said you'd read the comic. That scene was not the Strangers fears but thats not the issue here. The point is that the comics actually state several times by different writers in different titles that life is dependent on the Phoenix Force and that it is the energies of creation. They are direct statements on the point we're discussing. Nothing in the handbook contradicts them therefore they are canon.

The only non canon thing is my own explanation for the Goblin Force incident. However that doesnt change the fact that over half a dozen different titles and writers state the same thing. Phoenix is the life force of creation. Thats really it my friend.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I thought you said you'd read the comic. That scene was not the Strangers fears but thats not the issue here. The point is that the comics actually state several times by different writers in different titles that life is dependent on the Phoenix Force and that it is the energies of creation.

I have and it's only a posiibility GS it's not what will happen. No! we are discussing more than that - I will accept an energy later called the Phoenix force may have been created from the big bang. The energies from the last phoenix in an old dying Universe may have helped the new universe form. That means they are as dependant on each other. But even that is only one way of interprting things. It like most of your Phoenix ideas is a catch 22 in your interpretation. The main points most people have a problem with are you're most powerful force in the Universe, it clearly isn't and you're religious ideas which are one writers interpretation and contradicted by others, Thor has even dealt with Phoenixes Psi bolts.

You have twisted on panel images and you try to tell people that your opinions are canon and they do not have a right to interpret things themselves, then you slag them down if they disagree with you. Thats the real problem GS you haven't and can't prove anything in comics. Yet you think you have. Thats the sad thing as well you still don't understand what I am arguing (in my opinion/of course you might and be choosing to pretend you don't unlike you I don't try and judge)

😐

Keep the faith 🙂

Stay Whirly 🤘

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I have and it's only a posiibility GS it's not what will happen. No! we are discussing more than that - I will accept an energy later called the Phoenix force may have been created from the big bang. The energies from the last phoenix in an old dying Universe may have helped the new universe form. That means they are as dependant on each other. But even that is only one way of interprting things. It like most of your Phoenix ideas is a catch 22 in your interpretation. The main points most people have a problem with are you're most powerful force in the Universe, it clearly isn't and you're religious ideas which are one writers interpretation and contradicted by others, Thor has even dealt with Phoenixes Psi bolts.

You have twisted on panel images and you try to tell people that your opinions are canon and they do not have a right to interpret things themselves, then you slag them down if they disagree with you. Thats the real problem GS you haven't and can't prove anything in comics. Yet you think you have. Thats the sad thing as well you still don't understand what I am arguing (in my opinion/of course you might and be choosing to pretend you don't unlike you I don't try and judge)

😐

Keep the faith 🙂

Stay Whirly 🤘

With regards to the Stranger thing it was a visualisation by the Stranger of what he thought he could do with the Phoenix power. Eternity froze time and actually told her str8 up that the Phoenix power was indeed responsible for the creation cycle and the replacement of the abstracts anyway. That point you dont seem to acknowledge. Read the comic my friend. You so obviously have not.

As for the rest whatever you say basically. You dont like the idea that Phoenix might be higher up on the hierarchy than you'd thought from the limited relevant material you've read.

Phoenix is stated on panel to be the life force of the universe. Its stated to be the energies of creation and its stated in a different comic that without Phoenix life couldnt exist in a universe.

Regardless of how good or bad an avatar has performed in combat situations it doesnt change the role and nature of the Force thats stated plain as day on panel and supported in the handbooks. You need to accept that. 🙁

Okay, that's it. GS, Whirly, you two are no longer allowed to speak of Phoenix, Phoenix Force, Crown, or the One Above All. If I catch either of you doing so again, I'm sending you to your rooms (without supper). 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
With regards to the Stranger thing it was a visualisation by the Stranger of what he thought he could do with the Phoenix power. Eternity froze time and actually told her str8 up that the Phoenix power was indeed responsible for the creation cycle and the replacement of the abstracts anyway.

You see this bit has been retconned out in fantastic four again you're picking and choosing.
As for having readd "Endsong" I bought the hardback so yes I have.

Iy's interpretation again because you and I "choose" to see different things, it doesn't make anyones opinion definitive except the handbooks.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
You see this bit has been retconned out in fantastic four again you're picking and choosing.
As for having readd "Endsong" I bought the hardback so yes I have.

Iy's interpretation again because you and I "choose" to see different things, it doesn't make anyones opinion definitive except the handbooks.

" the replacement of the abstracts anyway. '

I've always considered this part as sceptical !

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
You see this bit has been retconned out in fantastic four again you're picking and choosing.

Explain how a retcon has taken place. F4s events can still fit in with X 4evas and you need to remember that it remains to be seen whether those recent F4 ideas are going to be picked up and supported by other writers in other titles and the handbooks like X 4evas have. Acknowledge that.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
As for having readd "Endsong" I bought the hardback so yes I have.

Iy's interpretation again because you and I "choose" to see different things, it doesn't make anyones opinion definitive except the handbooks.

The crux of the matter is that my interpretation of Endsong (i.e Phoenix and Jean are one and the same) is the one thats featured in the handbook so all this talk of its my interpretation versus yours is irrelevant. The handbook sorted that out for us. I was very much correct. 😉

Originally posted by Fishy 500
" the replacement of the abstracts anyway. '

I've always considered this part as sceptical !

Youre quite wise to be skeptical and even wiser to be so without outright dismissing the idea because it is not to your taste. 🙂

what issue did this whole bunny thing take place in?

Originally posted by leonidas
what issue did this whole bunny thing take place in?

I'll send it to you.

GS the fact you get so stressed over your opinions being questioned and feel the need to multipost continously is sad and amusing. Give it up, it's all mostly your opinion not cannon.

- As regards continued purpose - The question of the thread you ignore conveniently in every single post you have made (making it unlikely you read the initial thread starter post). The Universe survived perfectly with the Phoenix force shattered. It's purpose in a living Universe even in your interpretation (which is flawed "in my opinion"😉 is pointless.

Keep the faith 🙂

Stay Whirly 🤘

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
GS the fact you get so stressed over your opinions being questioned and feel the need to multipost continously is sad and amusing. Give it up, it's all mostly your opinion not cannon.

Who's getting stressed my friend? Certainly not me. We're talking about a subject i enjoy, a subject i have many sources i can draw upon hence my long posts. I can go on and on my friend dont mistake that for stress.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
- As regards continued purpose - The question of the thread you ignore conveniently in every single post you have made (making it unlikely you read the initial thread starter post). The Universe survived perfectly with the Phoenix force shattered. It's purpose in a living Universe even in your interpretation (which is flawed "in my opinion"😉 is pointless.

The consciousness of the Phoenix was shattered, the one it had developed (as detailed in Excalibur one of the main sources from which the bio draws its info.) hence the reason you had a very confused phoenix shard running around in Endsong. A shard which fixed itself by merging fully with the prime host Jean Grey.

Everything cool? 🙂

Its canon that Phoenix is the life force of the universe. Its stated several times in canon titles. Its supported in the handbook. Youre dismissing it because its not to your taste.

Sorry mate. 🙁

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its canon that Phoenix is the life force of the universe. Its stated several times in canon titles. Its supported in the handbook. Youre dismissing it because its not to your taste.

Sorry mate. 🙁

It's not canon that the universe needs it to survive, It needs the Universe, thats the point its your interpretation. The Universe had no real problems when the Phoenix force was shattered by the Goblin force.

It's your opinion, nothing else.

Don't be sorry and no need for a smiley again, it's not me that doesn't understand comic opinion varies across a company and fan boys latch on to a single writers interpretation and can't accept others. Your "retconn" is really only a retconn in your opinion it is nowhere in Marvel shown as a retconn. The stories are still continuity just a different writers interpretation. (sad smiley could be used, but it would be crass as it's not about taking the piss out of GS, its about showing ho other opinions are equally valid and about him growing up).

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
It's not canon that the universe needs it to survive, It needs the Universe, thats the point its your interpretation. The Universe had no real problems when the Phoenix force was shattered by the Goblin force.

It's your opinion, nothing else.

Don't be sorry and no need for a smiley again, it's not me that doesn't understand comic opinion varies across a company and fan boys latch on to a single writers interpretation and can't accept others. Your "retconn" is really only a retconn in your opinion it is nowhere in Marvel shown as a retconn. The stories are still continuity just a different writers interpretation. (sad smiley could be used, but it would be crass as it's not about taking the piss out of GS, its about showing ho other opinions are equally valid and about him growing up).

All of this taking the higher ground bull is just that.

At the end of the day its stated in canon comics by different writers and in different titles therefore making it canon. None of those accounts are contradicted by the bio and the Goblin Force incident can be explained away. Even if you dont like the explanation me, Demi or anyone else can give for the Goblin Force thing it doesnt change the fact that Phoenix is the life force of the universe and nowhere in the bio is that contradicted. In that case you come up wiv a better explanation bearing in mind that its canon that the Phoenix Force is the power supply for a universe.

Its stated therefore it is. No room for your conflicting opinion or distaste for it.

Again sorry mate. 🙁

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All of this taking the higher ground bull is just that.

Again you are telling me what I am thinking

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
At the end of the day its stated in canon comics by different writers and in different titles therefore making it canon.

By some yes and in "your" interpretation and contradicted by others.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Even if you dont like the explanation me, Demi or anyone else can give for the Goblin Force

and I and many others disagree with this explanation as it's one"you" have extrapolated. again you miss the point "in my opinion" (not telling you what you think)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
it doesnt change the fact that Phoenix is the life force of the universe and nowhere in the bio is that contradicted.

nowhere is it stated either (again making it "your" opinion)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In that case you come up wiv a better explanation bearing in mind that its canon that the Phoenix Force is the power supply for a universe.

I don't want to come up "wiv" anything as I do not wish to impose my interpretation on others, they can decide for themselves.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its stated therefore it is. No room for your conflicting opinion or distaste for it.

Again sorry mate. 🙁

It really isn't stated anywhere, I understad your wish to apologise for trying to impose your opinion on others and not telling the entire truth (I won't call you a liar as I am taking the higher ground) (no smiley needed your words have spoken for you) others can decide what they mean for them, as you think others are interested (I doubt anyone is).

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Again you are telling me what I am thinking

By some yes and in "your" interpretation and contradicted by others.

and I and many others disagree with this explanation as it's one"you" have extrapolated. again you miss the point "in my opinion" (not telling you what you think)

nowhere is it stated either (again making it "your" opinion)

I don't want to come up "wiv" anything as I do not wish to impose my interpretation on others, they can decide for themselves.

It really isn't stated anywhere, I understad your wish to apologise for trying to impose your opinion on others and not telling the entire truth (I won't call you a liar as I am taking the higher ground) (no smiley needed your words have spoken for you) others can decide what they mean for them, as you think others are interested (I doubt anyone is).

Rubbish Whirly this really is rather childish.

I have posted several scans from different titles, by different writers saying exactly Phoenix is both "the Big Bang" "the energies of creation", "the life force of the universe incarnate", that phoenix touches all that lives, that it is "the sum and substance of all that lives" and that a universe without Phoenix is one "wherein lies not the smallest potential for life". They are statements from the comics they are not my interpretation interpret them in another way and post your thoughts here. Simple as.

None of those statements are contradicted in the handbook therefore they are still canon. Thats the crux of the matter. Nothing you say is going to change that. Not your alternative opinion or your distaste for them. Those statements are not my interpretation they all are direct statements about the nature and role of Phoenix.

Once again, sorry mate. 🙁

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Rubbish Whirly this really is rather childish.

should I answer a post that starts as rudely as this (in my opinion)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Rubbish Whirly this really is rather childish.

I will GS

Again an opinion which differs from yours is diregarded and dealt with by an insult. I should have taken the higher ground long ago. You only have opinion.

Please don't keep apologising as if your trying to make out your view are cannon they are not. Like most you have to say on this matter it's merely an insult imo.

Your views are flawed (in my opinion) and not cannon (in my opinion)

and its the (in my opinion) which makes the difference in my opinion.