Flash vs Superman (today)

Originally posted by kgkg
How will he get stresses over nothing???? And that will take tooo long

Flash needs to get close and it does over even your average flash can get close to Superman.

Originally posted by Juntai
Eh, that's not what I'm arguing, I've already given my opinion on the outcome. I was just saying, he's every bit as fast, and it's proven COUNTLESS times in comics. Like I said, even Wonder Woman was running fast enough to catch Jessie Quick dissapearing into the speed force barrier which is known to the Flashes as Ultimate Speed, and we all know Superman is faster than her.

So you think Flash can get close Superman at least? Right

That should end the battle

Originally posted by kgkg
Jessie Quick is no where near flash level

So you think Flash can get close Superman at least? Right

That should end the battle

Originally posted by kgkg
Jessie Quick is no where near flash level

So you think Flash can get close Superman at least? Right

That should end the battle

Originally posted by Juntai
Ultimate speed is ultimate speed. There's a point in the speedforce that you CEASE TO BE. That is what Jessie Quick was going, and on that Flash respect page, you'll see a comic of a Flash almost doing the same thing.
Wonder Woman, chased her down, and dragged her back.

Again in the battle btz zoom and flash.

Flash was >>>>>>>>>>> his normal self

The way I see superman winning is by heading right into the air and destroying the planet or something to that effect.

There are a lot of PIS in flash comics like every issue there is one.

Heck human hit Flash, Flash been grabbed by WW, etc the list goes on and on.

But that's not what is arguing here all am saying Flash is faster than Superman even at normal level.

Have his amp that by absorbing energy etc.

Superman only option is to head to the sky and try something from there.

Originally posted by kgkg
WW did you see what Zoom did to her?

Again in the battle btz zoom and flash.

Flash was >>>>>>>>>>> his normal self

The way I see superman winning is by heading right into the air and destroying the planet or something to that effect.

There are a lot of PIS in flash comics like every issue there is one.

Heck human hit Flash, Flash been grabbed by WW, etc the list goes on and on.

But that's not what is arguing here all am saying Flash is faster than Superman even at normal level.

Have his amp that by absorbing energy etc.

Superman only option is to head to the sky and try something from there.

I see you're unwavering in your faith in Flash.
However, I'm unwavering in that Superman will beat Flash in more confrontations than Flash would beat Superman. And no amount of evidence has proven differently. Especially when the most recent confrontations between the two have Flash unable to handle Superman's speed/strength/cleverness, such as what happened in Sacrifice when that whole team got dismantled.

Originally posted by Juntai
And luckily that's an option he has. Just like the removing air from Wally's lungs option and rendering him unconscious. Or lobotomizing him with heat vision. He just has so much more at his disposal, plus a lot of Flash's powers, plus he's a quicker thinker. This is why I gave Superman a bit over half the wins.

I see you're unwavering in your faith in Flash.
However, I'm unwavering in that Superman will beat Flash in more confrontations than Flash would beat Superman. And no amount of evidence has proven differently. Especially when the most recent confrontations between the two have Flash unable to handle Superman's speed/strength/cleverness, such as what happened in Sacrifice when that whole team got dismantled.

superman can win

Originally posted by kgkg
i guess

superman can win

Originally posted by Juntai
So you're saying Superman can win, but you still give Flash more of the confrontations in your opinion?
Sounds a lot more reasonable in light of the evidence.

here is how i see it

Superman tries "heat vision" punching etc = Superman gets his energy jacked

Superman goes in the air ------------ now ever little flash can do here.

First off, Superman is my favorite hero hands down... but I'm well read in Flash and he's a distant 2nd favorite. For these types of matches, Flash is built to win... that's mostly inapplicable to their comic book lives though. (Flash and Supes are very similar characters - both married, conseratively raised, mostly well-adjusted optimists, family ties, mentors, operate with public approval, etc.)

Anyways, this fight is Flash's 8/10... again the context is a bloodlusted fight where they both know it's coming at "Fight!"

Flash is not only faster that Supes, but has faster acceleration, faster operating speed, and speed-force aura tricks (environment, perception, etc). Flash's high end speed feats, the ones he'd use in this battle, are impossible for Superman because of environmental destruction, acceleration rate, and perception rate. We will never see Superman evac an entire city or build a bridge through super-speed alone. Supes will never time travel or exceed the speed of light to the multitudes Flash did.

Sacrifice is as poor an example as Blitz is. In Sacrifice, Wally didn't know he'd need to ramp up his perceptions, but still was the only one quick enough to catch on... meanwhile the same is true in Blitz, Superman appears as an unaware statue to the devestation caused by Wally and Zoom... but arguably the same excuse, no foreknowledge his perceptions need to be ramped... not so in this battle, where they both know they're fighting.

In Flash #209, Supes KNOWS he has to keep up with Flash and even there speaks to his need to ramp up his perceptions, likewise, Flash speaks to the confidence he has in his superior speed. In The Human Race, the ultimate speedster is necessary to save the planet, but Flash is selected over Supes. In Superman/Flash DC Firsts, Superman admits Wally would leave both him and Jay in the dust if not held back by Abracadabra.

When Supes hears Lois is shot- arguably the most important person to him in the world, where he would never hold back his speed- it takes him several thousand times longer to get to her than it did for Flash to find, carry, and evac 500,000 people. These are totally different magnitudes of operating speed.

Personally, to me there is no question who is faster.

For a victory, Flash has a couple options...

- Vibrations - Already prove he can phase through Supes, but the question is whether it would harm him. Supes has been phased into the JLA table and while he was certainly incapacitated and in great pain... it didn't kill him. So while this attack will work on Supes, it's not the instant-kill it would be for a lot of other heroes.

- IMP - Supes has proven he can "die" to blunt trauma as with Doomsday... and that fight clearly wasn't taking place at Flash-level superspeed (though probably quite fast). Flash could probably get in quite a few serious blows before Supes' perceptions caught up.

- Speed Steal/Boost - Taking Supes' speed and adding it to his own. Probably something he should be doing while doing the other attacks. One poster joked that he could turn Superman into a statue, cover him with a blanket, and come back to kill him after the power drained from his cells. Historically, Wally has be able to do this reliably time and time again... the ONLY place Wally says there's an issue is #209, arguably an excuse to justify a "race"... and technically speaking it's not an issue if this is a bloodlusted fight.

- Speed Force/Time Dump - I don't think the gap in speed is enough that Wally could catch Supes with this... the only possibility is if Supes tries to chase Wally and then he does it ala Savitar/Black Flash... but I like to think that Superman is smarter than that. Then again, if Supes isn't chasing Wally... how can he fight him?

- Time Travel - Ultimately this is Flash's trump card. Flash has been shown to be immune to paradox- meaning, he could go back in time and kill himself, but he'd still exist- however, Superman's recent travels through time as well as the Superman/Batman arc show that he is not. That means Wally can go back and erase Superman.

- Kryptonite - Pop into Bat's cave, take the ring, and come back to rumble.

Originally posted by Juntai
Superman collapses his lungs by breathing in as the fights starts, like he did to the guy in Manchester Black's team The Elite. In issue 775.

Your turn.
[Both of these guys have rediculous things at their disposal and a thousand or so comics to back both of them up.]

This wouldn't work. Part of Flash's arsenal is circling a person to create a vacuum and take the air out of their lungs... yet the pressure difference has no effect on Flash. Heck, simply running at the speeds Flash does should tear the air from his lungs... but the Speed Force prevents it from being an issue.

Originally posted by Demas
First off, Superman is my favorite hero hands down... but I'm well read in Flash and he's a distant 2nd favorite. For these types of matches, Flash is built to win... that's mostly inapplicable to their comic book lives though. (Flash and Supes are very similar characters - both married, conseratively raised, mostly well-adjusted optimists, family ties, mentors, operate with public approval, etc.)

Anyways, this fight is Flash's 8/10... again the context is a bloodlusted fight where they both know it's coming at "Fight!"

Flash is not only faster that Supes, but has faster acceleration, faster operating speed, and speed-force aura tricks (environment, perception, etc). Flash's high end speed feats, the ones he'd use in this battle, are impossible for Superman because of environmental destruction, acceleration rate, and perception rate. We will never see Superman evac an entire city or build a bridge through super-speed alone. Supes will never time travel or exceed the speed of light to the multitudes Flash did.

Sacrifice is as poor an example as Blitz is. In Sacrifice, Wally didn't know he'd need to ramp up his perceptions, but still was the only one quick enough to catch on... meanwhile the same is true in Blitz, Superman appears as an unaware statue to the devestation caused by Wally and Zoom... but arguably the same excuse, no foreknowledge his perceptions need to be ramped... not so in this battle, where they both know they're fighting.

In Flash #209, Supes KNOWS he has to keep up with Flash and even there speaks to his need to ramp up his perceptions, likewise, Flash speaks to the confidence he has in his superior speed. In The Human Race, the ultimate speedster is necessary to save the planet, but Flash is selected over Supes. In Superman/Flash DC Firsts, Superman admits Wally would leave both him and Jay in the dust if not held back by Abracadabra.

When Supes hears Lois is shot- arguably the most important person to him in the world, where he would never hold back his speed- it takes him several thousand times longer to get to her than it did for Flash to find, carry, and evac 500,000 people. These are totally different magnitudes of operating speed.

Personally, to me there is no question who is faster.

For a victory, Flash has a couple options...

- Vibrations - Already prove he can phase through Supes, but the question is whether it would harm him. Supes has been phased into the JLA table and while he was certainly incapacitated and in great pain... it didn't kill him. So while this attack will work on Supes, it's not the instant-kill it would be for a lot of other heroes.

- IMP - Supes has proven he can "die" to blunt trauma as with Doomsday... and that fight clearly wasn't taking place at Flash-level superspeed (though probably quite fast). Flash could probably get in quite a few serious blows before Supes' perceptions caught up.

- Speed Steal/Boost - Taking Supes' speed and adding it to his own. Probably something he should be doing while doing the other attacks. One poster joked that he could turn Superman into a statue, cover him with a blanket, and come back to kill him after the power drained from his cells. Historically, Wally has be able to do this reliably time and time again... the ONLY place Wally says there's an issue is #209, arguably an excuse to justify a "race"... and technically speaking it's not an issue if this is a bloodlusted fight.

- Speed Force/Time Dump - I don't think the gap in speed is enough that Wally could catch Supes with this... the only possibility is if Supes tries to chase Wally and then he does it ala Savitar/Black Flash... but I like to think that Superman is smarter than that. Then again, if Supes isn't chasing Wally... how can he fight him?

- Time Travel - Ultimately this is Flash's trump card. Flash has been shown to be immune to paradox- meaning, he could go back in time and kill himself, but he'd still exist- however, Superman's recent travels through time as well as the Superman/Batman arc show that he is not. That means Wally can go back and erase Superman.

- Kryptonite - Pop into Bat's cave, take the ring, and come back to rumble.

Yay! We have a Flash fan. Now I can pass the responsiblity on to you, Demas. Swear to god, there was 200 page plus thread that went on and on because alot people thought Spider-Man could beat the Flash...

Originally posted by Juntai
He just has so much more at his disposal, plus a lot of Flash's powers, plus he's a quicker thinker. This is why I gave Superman a bit over half the wins.

This is also untrue.

Batman: "Our enemy is capable of studying, analyzing, planning and responding at speeds millions of times beyond anything in the 20th century. On the other hand...we have the Flash."

From DC One Million, they use Flash as the ultimate super-computer to out-tactical a space fleet from the 853rd (or some odd) Century. He's also defeated a Cyber-version of the Thinker through speed of thought.

Superman is better at EVERYTHING over ANYONE!

Originally posted by Demas
This is also untrue.

[b]Batman: "Our enemy is capable of studying, analyzing, planning and responding at speeds millions of times beyond anything in the 20th century. On the other hand...we have the Flash."

From DC One Million, they use Flash as the ultimate super-computer to out-tactical a space fleet from the 853rd (or some odd) Century. He's also defeated a Cyber-version of the Thinker through speed of thought. [/B]

It's all relative.. I just notice him doing it more often than I notice Flash.
He does it nearly every enemy he runs into, analyses and then hits them with neccisary force to take them down and not kill them.

Originally posted by Demas
First off, Superman is my favorite hero hands down... but I'm well read in Flash and he's a distant 2nd favorite. For these types of matches, Flash is built to win... that's mostly inapplicable to their comic book lives though. (Flash and Supes are very similar characters - both married, conseratively raised, mostly well-adjusted optimists, family ties, mentors, operate with public approval, etc.)

Anyways, this fight is Flash's 8/10... again the context is a bloodlusted fight where they both know it's coming at "Fight!"

Flash is not only faster that Supes, but has faster acceleration, faster operating speed, and speed-force aura tricks (environment, perception, etc). Flash's high end speed feats, the ones he'd use in this battle, are impossible for Superman because of environmental destruction, acceleration rate, and perception rate. We will never see Superman evac an entire city or build a bridge through super-speed alone. Supes will never time travel or exceed the speed of light to the multitudes Flash did.

Sacrifice is as poor an example as Blitz is. In Sacrifice, Wally didn't know he'd need to ramp up his perceptions, but still was the only one quick enough to catch on... meanwhile the same is true in Blitz, Superman appears as an unaware statue to the devestation caused by Wally and Zoom... but arguably the same excuse, no foreknowledge his perceptions need to be ramped... not so in this battle, where they both know they're fighting.

In Flash #209, Supes KNOWS he has to keep up with Flash and even there speaks to his need to ramp up his perceptions, likewise, Flash speaks to the confidence he has in his superior speed. In The Human Race, the ultimate speedster is necessary to save the planet, but Flash is selected over Supes. In Superman/Flash DC Firsts, Superman admits Wally would leave both him and Jay in the dust if not held back by Abracadabra.

When Supes hears Lois is shot- arguably the most important person to him in the world, where he would never hold back his speed- it takes him several thousand times longer to get to her than it did for Flash to find, carry, and evac 500,000 people. These are totally different magnitudes of operating speed.

Personally, to me there is no question who is faster.

For a victory, Flash has a couple options...

- Vibrations - Already prove he can phase through Supes, but the question is whether it would harm him. Supes has been phased into the JLA table and while he was certainly incapacitated and in great pain... it didn't kill him. So while this attack will work on Supes, it's not the instant-kill it would be for a lot of other heroes.

- IMP - Supes has proven he can "die" to blunt trauma as with Doomsday... and that fight clearly wasn't taking place at Flash-level superspeed (though probably quite fast). Flash could probably get in quite a few serious blows before Supes' perceptions caught up.

- Speed Steal/Boost - Taking Supes' speed and adding it to his own. Probably something he should be doing while doing the other attacks. One poster joked that he could turn Superman into a statue, cover him with a blanket, and come back to kill him after the power drained from his cells. Historically, Wally has be able to do this reliably time and time again... the ONLY place Wally says there's an issue is #209, arguably an excuse to justify a "race"... and technically speaking it's not an issue if this is a bloodlusted fight.

- Speed Force/Time Dump - I don't think the gap in speed is enough that Wally could catch Supes with this... the only possibility is if Supes tries to chase Wally and then he does it ala Savitar/Black Flash... but I like to think that Superman is smarter than that. Then again, if Supes isn't chasing Wally... how can he fight him?

- Time Travel - Ultimately this is Flash's trump card. Flash has been shown to be immune to paradox- meaning, he could go back in time and kill himself, but he'd still exist- however, Superman's recent travels through time as well as the Superman/Batman arc show that he is not. That means Wally can go back and erase Superman.

- Kryptonite - Pop into Bat's cave, take the ring, and come back to rumble.

Superman is great
Flash is cool

Originally posted by Juntai
Superman invents things and understands far beyond the human capacity. He also likewise thinks in Super-speed. In Sacrifice, he instantly outclassed the the entire JLA, and even let ready their attack first, and he had already formulated a plan around it. Flash was nearly on top of him while he did it, closing in at Superspeed.

It's all relative.. I just notice him doing it more often than I notice Flash.
He does it nearly every enemy he runs into, analyses and then hits them with neccisary force to take them down and not kill them.

You can't really use comic-book situational VS. and apply them to forum bouts since plot and character popularity interferes. Superman is central to the DCU so there are clearly going to be more stories about him taking on the world, rogue or not.

Sacrifice is again a poor example to continually cite because 1. The story demands the outcome no matter how contrived. 2. All intents and purposes it was a surprise attack.

Neither of these conditions apply to a forum match where the combatants are free from plot contraints and attack each other from the get go with everything they have.

We have repeated precedent that Superman is operationally significantly slower than Flash (for example, outracing the Zeta Beam in JLA) and we have Flash with a sufficiently damaging arsenal to affect Superman before he can completely respond.

You'll never see this happen in the books because it runs as contrary to the nature of comics as it is to have Iceman and Emma take out every single x-threat through telepathy and instafreeze... or for Flash/Superman to conclude all their business in 3 panels, for that matter.

We've seen Wally and Bart exercise exceptional levels of thinking and strategy... if you think about it, Flash relies on clever application of his single specialized power on a far more regular basis than Superman, a generalist, who often relies on strength first (if the plot hadn't demanded it, couldn't Superman have fetched a boom tube generator and taken Doomsday off planet in a blink of an eye, rather than laying down his life?).

But regardless, their tendancies are irrelevant to this battle otherwise lobotomy wouldn't even be on the table (frankly I doubt he can do it anyways, considering Flash outran his heat vision)... these are characters using their peak abilities from "Go!" not holding back, dueling, and wrestling for the advantage.

Flash wins 10 times out of 10.

wow...demas knows his stuff. I was thinking Flash wins in the first place, but he just made me absolutely certain of that fact....

Awesometastic guys, Wally is god!!!