been done before...I think it ended as a stalemate, because even tho flash would physically whip him, he couldnd actually hurt him in vapor form (and since he wouldnt know he couldnt create a tornado to keep him busy)....
but my theory is that if the flash does that, and Bobby does go vaporish, and Flash thinks the fights done when its not, Bobby flash freezes him and its a done deal....
See this is where the CIS comes in. Although Flash HAS been frozen solid by Cap. Cold, he very well could have vibrated out. I dont know why. was is shock? Beats me. As a Flash fan, it totaly upsets me that it happens, but ive gotten used to it for the simple fact that Wally hardly ever fights to his potential. Only if Linda is in immediate danger. Same can be said for Iceman with him being an Omega mutant. Fights with him should be over with a thought.
Like i said, Wally wont know that Bobby can still use his powers in vapor form. Thats the only way Iceman would have the time to even mount an attack. True his regular attacks would be way faster than Cap.Colds, because he doesnt shoot a beam that obviously comes from a gun. Bobby can create ice frrom anywhere by simply lifting a finger. I still say stalemate, but if i had to decide, i say Iceman 6/10.
Originally posted by Blair Wind
how would he have brain function??
Iceman, like Colossus, is a golem. None of their organs work like organs (typically: occasionally a writer will flub it) except in somewhat of a "magical" sense. Their lungs don't breath, but cover their "eyes" and they can't see... and yet as a vapor, Bobby can "see". It's best not to think about it too deeply residing in the realm of comic book powers logic... Flash, similarly, is able to think, sense, and perceive beyond the speed of light/information, but blessed with the Speed Force to explain it, so just accept Mutant Genes as sufficient explanation.
We can gather some precepts, though, Iceman is clearly vulnerable to psychic attack... similarly his consciousness goes where his "body" goes. This suggests that banishment-type attacks could work, such as dropping someone off in the Speed Force.
Both guys acting at their peak, completely bloodlusted, no-holds barred, Wally wins because he will pull out the big desperation moves (Time Travel or Speed Force dump- the latter more likely since he's fought elemental golems before) even before Bobby can form a thought.
Slightly more in character, but still acting at their peak, Wally busts Bobby up but doesn't go beyond that, for Bobby then, it comes down to how fast his "instant" freeze is- unfortunately we don't have a lot of measures of that- but if it's slow enough that Wally can perceive it, a peak acting Flash can avoid it as soon as the cold starts setting in- if it's too fast, then Bobby can cause cellular damage beyond Wally's healing factor and kill him... but that would be a little out of character for Bobby too.
Both completely in character, the two stalemate, Bobby unwilling to kill Flash to completely stop him, and Flash not willingly to use time-travel or speed-force banishment.
Originally posted by Demas
Iceman, like Colossus, is a golem. None of their organs work like organs (typically: occasionally a writer will flub it) except in somewhat of a "magical" sense. Their lungs don't breath, but cover their "eyes" and they can't see... and yet as a vapor, Bobby can "see". It's best not to think about it too deeply residing in the realm of comic book powers logic... Flash, similarly, is able to think, sense, and perceive beyond the speed of light/information, but blessed with the Speed Force to explain it, so just accept Mutant Genes as sufficient explanation.We can gather some precepts, though, Iceman is clearly vulnerable to psychic attack... similarly his consciousness goes where his "body" goes. This suggests that banishment-type attacks could work, such as dropping someone off in the Speed Force.
Both guys acting at their peak, completely bloodlusted, no-holds barred, Wally wins because he will pull out the big desperation moves (Time Travel or Speed Force dump- the latter more likely since he's fought elemental golems before) even before Bobby can form a thought.
Slightly more in character, but still acting at their peak, Wally busts Bobby up but doesn't go beyond that, for Bobby then, it comes down to how fast his "instant" freeze is- unfortunately we don't have a lot of measures of that- but if it's slow enough that Wally can perceive it, a peak acting Flash can avoid it as soon as the cold starts setting in- if it's too fast, then Bobby can cause cellular damage beyond Wally's healing factor and kill him... but that would be a little out of character for Bobby too.
Both completely in character, the two stalemate, Bobby unwilling to kill Flash to completely stop him, and Flash not willingly to use time-travel or speed-force banishment.
while I agree with you on most parts of that (if flash cant see or percieve bobby to be anything more than water vapor, which already exists, how can he attack unless of course he uses time travel [BUT he would have to know that Bobby is still alive, which he cant], but that is not a common attack for him) I was actually talking about Flash....how can he have brain function if Iceman manages to flash freeze him...that would steal all of the flashes kinetic energy, making him ice cold, and the fastest man alive goes all the way to absolute zero.....how could he just vibrate if he has no brain function? can the speed force protect against that?? I know ALOT more about Iceman than I do about Flash, but i was wondering how many more abilities the speed force actually gives Wally than just speed....
Fair question. This is why I wondered about how quickly Bobby's freezing occurs... assuming Flash can perceive it, obviously, he could run away, but alternatively he could stand there and try fighting it- streaming KE from the Speed Force into himself to counter-act the cold. We know that's how he gets his vibration started in order to escape Captain Cold's Cold Gun (unlike Mr. Freeze's ice gun, Cold's gun works similar to Iceman by generating absolute zero fields). For lesser cold, we know that Flash's Speed Force aura protects him the same way it does from friction and heat... he's remarked on that many times during arctic-type adventures.
But yeah, assuming Flash was just 100% frozen with cellular damage, etc., he'd just die. Whether he can be stopped without being killed, that leads into my second question....
The other question, besides speed, is whether Bobby's power is absolute. Does it have to overcome kinetic energy/heat or does it simply and magically put things at absolute zero? For example, if you asked him to freeze a nuclear reactor- or the sun- would it be harder than freezing something inert. I theorize there's some effort to it, which is why I think unless he's willing to kill Flash, Flash will be able to still break out of most icy prisons eventually.
I think it ends with a stalemate....Iceman cant "freeze" flash fast enough, and in water vapor form, Flash would never know if he had taken enough speed or not from the air to have effectivly frozen the iceman...plus iceman could still survive, his very mutation (omega-style) would probably let him, since he can survive as anything "cold", warm (water), or even warmer (water vapor) and Im willing to bet his brain goes on a very limited astral form to be able to expand his concouisness like that....
Originally posted by LordKaos
let's go back to Flash shattering Iceman, which is not the end of the battle because we all know Iceman can survive as vapor, he could reconstruct himself useing Flash's own body moisture killing him, like he did one of Nightcrawlers siblings.
But I see this as an inequitable scenario because that would be Flash holding back- having fought elemental/golem types before he'd know shattering Iceman is but a temporary measure- yet Iceman is bloodlusted and willing to kill.
Flash would only have basic knowledge about Iceman, most people outside of the Xmen don't know about Icemans full power, Flash would see nothing more than a mutant who can manipulate ice and cold. Iceman was willing to kill one of nightcrawlers siblings to preserve his own life. By shattering Iceman, it's safe to say that Flash would think Iceman was dead, so I think Iceman would return in kind to permenantely neutralize an enemy who just tried to kill him.
That's a huge assumption on your part. Flash's Rogue Gallery is pretty diverse including elementals and energy beings. He'd have to ignore his entire past fighting experiences to think that merely shattering is sufficient to kill. If you're going to leave the scope or elemental nature out of Iceman's "basic knowledge" dossie then Flash is "merely" a speedster, to wit, Iceman's experience is limited to Quicksilver. He'd know nothing of the Speed Force, a big handicap in this case.
The much more equitable comparsion is either both of them bloodlusted or both of them in the same degree of character.
I wouldn't take Iceman's killing of a demon/clone-thingy as a universal readiness to use lethal force in response to a non-lethal attack. Even if Flash was intending to kill Iceman and didn't know that shattering him wouldn't, Icemans DOES know that shattering isn't lethal to him and is unlikely to respond with deadly force. In context, Iceman was under mystical and actual threat before he decided to take the life of an arguably non-sentient monster-type being- certainly not human to the extend Flash is.
I mean, if we're going to take lethal force out of context to that degree, then Flash would have no fear time-travelling to destroy Bobby- just because he did with the Anti-Monitor- or shunting Bobby off into the Speed Force- just because he did with Savitar, a human.
Flash would be just another speedster to Iceman intially as he knows nothing of the speed force, once seeing Flash vibrate out of everything I'm confidant Iceman would turn up the volume. It's out of character for any of the Xmen to kill, until they've tried everything else. Doesn't Flash travelling through time depend on him going through the dimension the speed force comes from, wouldn't he be leaving the battlefield, eliminating himself? as a matter of fact don't they need a cosmic treadmill or something to travel through time?
That's just the point, he basically has to kill Flash otherwise Flash will always escape. Absent and immediate proof that Flash can affect him, Iceman would have no reason to escalate to lethal force... no more than Superman would kill people for shooting bullets at him. Unfortunately for Iceman that means if Flash intends on escalating, then he'd pull out attacks which Iceman has no response to.
Wally can time travel without the treadmill, Barry could not. So long as their affixation to normal space remains, there's no ringout issue, otherwise Nightcrawler would be eliminated the instant he used his powers, or Iceman would be the instant his body was destroyed since his technical location is the Astral Plane.
God i can't type as fast as i can think thank's to 🍺 if only i had the speed force! The astral plane and the physical plane are two sides of the same coin even when your in one your in the other. Even if he time travels he gets no insight into Iceman and his powers he just gets to try something new still unaware of why he failed the first time.
Originally posted by Superherovandal
you see however he just has to send Iceman to the Speed Force and Iceman would become just like Barry Allen. Dead.
Yea we all know how dead Barry is. 🙄
Wally wouldnt do that. Bobby may be able to leave his mind on earth, whereas Wally wouldnt know he did so. Then Bobby could just use the moisture in Wally to come back.