Originally posted by jrodslam
Bobby may be able to leave his mind on earth, whereas Wally wouldnt know he did so. Then Bobby could just use the moisture in Wally to come back.
Two huge assumptions: 1. Bobby could leave his mind on Earth- much less think fast enough to respond to what was happening. 2. Bobby's mutant powers work on and through a Speed Force aura- again, much less being able to think of that fast enough before Flash leaves.
The former is highly unlikely, otherwise he wouldn't need a coporal body and it means it would be impossible for Iceman to have ever travelled through time, space, or other dimensions and we know he's done all three. The only argument is that he can't be taken if he's unwilling, but that's where the speed comes into play- the events occur too quickly for him to will otherwise... but even this is unlikely, otherwise he would have 'ported his spirit right out of "hell".
The latter assumption deals with Bobby's powers as being physics/genetic based, whereas Flash's powers are quasi-mystical. While running, Flash is not sustained by food or air, in danger of friction or exhaustion, and is thinking/acting/perceiving beyond the speed of light/information/rationality, etc. It's questionable whether he has any "moisture" to speak of... Flash ceases to exist as a "rational object" for Iceman's powers to work on at Speed Dump speeds. But it's a moot point considering he'd be unable to react at said speeds.
Your initial statement, however, that Flash wouldn't do that, holds some weight, which is why it's a stalemate... Bobby does not kill people he thinks can't affect him and neither does Flash banish/kill people he thinks he can always escape.
Originally posted by LordKaos
The astral plane and the physical plane are two sides of the same coin even when your in one your in the other. Even if he time travels he gets no insight into Iceman and his powers he just gets to try something new still unaware of why he failed the first time.
To your first assertion, it's a subjective/philosophical argument that doesn't address Nightcrawler... at best it's a technical loss, which by no means helps Iceman survive. To your latter assertion, Iceman's an easy target in the past because: 1. Flash knows he's a mutant (common knowledge- just like Superman is kryptonian) which means he was born mortal at one point. 2. Iceman is a relatively public mutant, making it easy to track him down and kill him at conception.
Originally posted by Demas
Two huge assumptions: 1. Bobby could leave his mind on Earth- much less think fast enough to respond to what was happening. 2. Bobby's mutant powers work on and through a Speed Force aura- again, much less being able to think of that fast enough before Flash leaves.The former is highly unlikely, otherwise he wouldn't need a coporal body and it means it would be impossible for Iceman to have ever travelled through time, space, or other dimensions and we know he's done all three. The only argument is that he can't be taken if he's unwilling, but that's where the speed comes into play- the events occur too quickly for him to will otherwise... but even this is unlikely, otherwise he would have 'ported his spirit right out of "hell".
The latter assumption deals with Bobby's powers as being physics/genetic based, whereas Flash's powers are quasi-mystical. While running, Flash is not sustained by food or air, in danger of friction or exhaustion, and is thinking/acting/perceiving beyond the speed of light/information/rationality, etc. It's questionable whether he has any "moisture" to speak of... Flash ceases to exist as a "rational object" for Iceman's powers to work on at Speed Dump speeds. But it's a moot point considering he'd be unable to react at said speeds.
Well for one, if Flash were to punch Iceman to the point where he shatters, Wally would most likely assume that the fight would be over. But lets just say Wally knows Bobby isnt defeated, he still wouldnt know where his conscious is exactly. As long as theres moisture in the air, he can/would reform anywhere. And he will indeed have time for that, unless Flash is time traveling which i doubt. Secondly, if Iceman were to encase Wally in a block of ice, it would take Flash a few seconds to vibrate out. And it takes Iceman less than a second to manipulate the blood. You have to remember that Iceman doesnt have to just shoot an ice-beam. He can gather cold thats in the air to make things frozen instantly. For Wally to beat something thats instant, hed need to build the momentum. Flash even needs time to build up the momentum to reach lightspeed and enter the speedforce. Thats about 10-15 seconds. If he were to indeed do that and throw Bobby in it, hed risk getting pulled in himself. If worse comes to worse and he feels Bobby is a real threat, hed try it.
I do hear what youre saying, but i wasnt implying that Bobby can just move his conscious from place to place at anytime. If he can, i have no knowledge of that. However i do know that if hes shattered, he can move it and reform elsewhere. I wouldnt go as far as saying miles but most likely in the area. Maybe even in Wally like he did with the Nightcrawler relative was it?
^ Flash needs to go lightspeed to do that. He also risks getting pulled in himself, so....
He also needs to build up momentum to do that which would be anywhere from 10-15 seconds. In that time Bobby can make multiple clones of himself, make the area around him so cold that Wally begins to slow down, or just simple gather the moisture from beneath the surface to throw Wally off his course.
Wally would be around the world and back before Iceman could even react. You're underestimating Flash's speed greatly. Iceman wouldn't even know where Wally went. Unless Iceman could freeze the entire globe he ain't doing crap to Flash. He would feel the vague effects of Icemans power long before they took full effect. He once felt the vibrations of bullet that was shot from a very distance away and ran there and back before anyone noticed.
Originally posted by Superherovandal
Wally would be around the world and back before Iceman could even react. You're underestimating Flash's speed greatly. Iceman wouldn't even know where Wally went. Unless Iceman could freeze the entire globe he ain't doing crap to Flash. He would feel the vague effects of Icemans power long before they took full effect. He once felt the vibrations of bullet that was shot from a very distance away and ran there and back before anyone noticed.
No Wally wouldnt be around the world and back before Iceman would notice. He needs momentum to build up that kind of speed. He cant go from 0 to light speed instantly. He was able to do that when he stole other speedsters speed. There are no speedsters in this fight.
Im never one to underestimate Flash's abilities. Im usually the one defending him in debates. I do however know that it takes him about 10-15 seconds to reach lightspeed and enter the speedforce.
Also he wouldnt feel the vague effects of Icemans powers before they take full effect. If Bobby flash-frezes him, thats it. Its instant. Much like Captain Colds freeze gun, but without the beam and the aiming. Its much different from a bullet. A bullet has kinetic energy via speed and heat. Wally can absorb the kinetic energy, slowing/stopping the bullet. Plus, a bullet isnt instant either. Wally CANT beat something thats instant without building up the proper momentum first.
Originally posted by LordKaos
how big is the battlefield? Running around the world no matter how fast you do it is considered leaving the battlefield right? seems like the only way Flash can win is by running away first.
It was never stated how big the battlefield was. It wasnt even stated where it was. Im assuming theres no ring outs unless Flash hits Iceman with a IMP and send him into orbital velocity to try to ko him.
Originally posted by jrodslam
Also he wouldnt feel the vague effects of Icemans powers before they take full effect. If Bobby flash-frezes him, thats it. Its instant.