Rebel Alliance versus Revan's Sith Empire

The point is that Revan doesn't have the ships and troops to defend the system against the Rebels. They can simply move in, destroy anything in their way, destroy the shield on the planet, destroy the fleet Revan might have and destroy the Star Forge.

Where the hell does that come from? Even when they were still fighting a war at all fronts the Star Forge had a pretty reasonable fleet there. Enough to stand up against the entire Republic fleet. In most wars, a lot of troops can retreat to the last stronghold. This would probably not be an exeption. If there is any troop problem inside the shield then its going to be to much, and Revan would have to weaken his forces be able to survive there. He wouldn't face problems with to few people or ships for that mater cause the SF still poops out ships at amazing speed.

Malak did place all the Sith in the temple since he only awaited a ship full of Revan's friends. What can Revan put there to stop an entire army of Rebels invading the planet ? Nothing.

The Sith had been there for a very long time, the Elders saw them move in and out of the temple for a very long time.

And actually if he would spot the incoming army's, he shoot at them from the air. He could place more Sith in the area to take down the heavily weakened rebel army thats probably still under attack as they run/march towards the temple. Not to mention that if Revan really fears an invasion he could start blocking the path, lay mines set traps whatever. Its not that far fetched to think he would defend that thing.

If the Rebels send scout those would be most likely starfighters which have Hyperdrive capability at that time. They simply will jump into the system, spot Revan's ships, spot the SF and will jump out again and basically Revan can't do anything against it. Once the position of his troops is revealed he's screwed because the Rebel's will send everything the have there and Revan can't move the SF away so either he has to leave it there or he has to defend it.

I know, but what does this have to with my post 😛 I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say or something. Well at least you didn't argue it.

With their technology they can spot the source of the shield. And we have seen that there are mobile shield units for ground troops (TPM) so that Sith fighters won't be able to take ground forces out. And even if they could they have to fire on the temple which they probably won't do - if they would even be able to get beyond the Rebels fleet...

Well the Rebel fleet isn't any problem because it isn't there.. and if it is its disabled. Mobile shield units, yeah okay. But have you seen the rebels ever use that. and would it help against mines, would it also stand against a full bombardment from the Sith fleet? I doubt it, once they get closer to the temple they will probably just be bombed by fighters. More and more people will die. Not to mention the fact that there is a very big chance that the mobile shield units along with every other electronic unit thingie won't work. Because of the shield thats surrounding them all.

They would be able to see it. And the Temple of Ancients is mentioned to be the source of the shield. It would make no sense to place a "remote control" for the shield down on the planet if it's generated somewhere on the SF.

Actually, if thats your capitol it wouldn't be all that stupid to do.

Projected Trajactory. They can use some math and land exactly were they want to land.

And this will make them know where the rest is going to land? they won't have communication devices anymore.

It doesn't matter. The cloacking of the Mandalorians will run out with the first attack they do means they can't stay invisible while fighting and once they are visible they are dead.

Very true, but still an ambush by even a dozen Mandelorians can be very effective. When the enemy is properly surrounded they can do a lot of damage, hide behind the rocks fire with heavy repeating blasters. Its going to hurt the rebels badly. At least 12 are death because of the first shot, but they are going to fire fast, before the first rebel would react there could easily be 20 to 30 deaths and or heavily wounded.

He still can't put anything down there that will protect the temple from an army of Rebels invading it.

Why the hell not? I really don't see any reason why he couldn't form a great defence on that planet? Not one. He has the troops, he still has the technology, he has the weapons. He has Sith Lords and he's a military genius. Whats to stop him from creating an incredible defense there?

and the rebel army still is limited in numbers because of landing space. If they land all over the iland, then they are going to be seperated, they will be isolated and slaughtered in smaller groups.

And Yaddle was killed by a single thermal detonator...
And this is Glentracts theory of a invading commando. If an army comes down there - they are screwed. Even a commando with 100 people against 20 Sith that are spread across the temple. They won't outnumber them 4 on 1 ... they will outnumber them 25 on 1.

25 to 1? How many of them do you think would actually reach the temple?

uicide attacks on the Rebels ships won't do anything before their shields are gone. Seeing that the Rebel's ships were able to survive the onslaught over Endor with hundrets of ISDs and the Executor involved (ships that have 100times the firepower of anything Revan has) I don't think Revan would be able to take the more powerful ships down.

Explain to me how the rebel ships shields suddenly stop everything but the Star Forge shields, the planeterial shields and the shields on the Sith ships don't help that much? How come?

Also its not going to be fire power, they are going to ram rebel ships at full speed, like you or glentract wanted the rebel ships to ram the Star Forge at full speed. With an infinite fleet piloted by droids with only one goal, its going to hurt as hell. Those ships are going to be in great pain. And will at the best of times need repairs.

The point is that Revan has no chance to stop the Rebels because they are superior on every field. He can put what he wants on the planet - the Rebels are more powerful. He can put what he want into the systems space or in the planets orbit - the Rebels are more powerful.

I don't see how they are more powerful on the ground? They won't have their tanks or whatever because of the SF shield, they will be attacking an unknown planet without any information about it. They will be facing troops that know the terrain, that have the advantage because they have heavy weapons that are made to defend the area. And far more important they have Sith to help them defend it. The droid army heavily outnumbered the clone troopers. And yet still because of the Jedi, and superior knowledge the clones managed to take out much of the seperatist forces they managed to drive them back into the outer rim, they were winning the war.

Not to mention that its unlikely that the Rebel forces would really outnumber the Sith there, let alone stand greatly. The iland wasn't that big meaning that they have a very limited amount of troops to attack with. The rest would have to land at different places.

In space the Rebel fleet is far more powerful then Revan his fleet, i'm not debating that. He would have lost there. But he still has the advantage when it comes to defending his own planet.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
How do we know that the Rebel shipyards can't make ships as fast as the Star Forge?

I know the Empire and the Rebels are different, but could the SF make an ISD every two days along with over 150 other warships every single day? The Star Forge isn't unmatched in ship building.

If Revan starts ramming Rebel ships, there is no garentee that they will be able to do much damage to a Rebel ship because it is moving. The difference with the SF is that it is stationary. A Rebel ship can match one of Revan's ship velocity and make the damage recieved minimal assuming it even gets through the shields and then continue pounding Revans ships(since if the Mon Calamari cruiser survives the ramming by acceleration in the same direction as the Sith ship, neither ship will be damaged much and Revan's ships would probably survive too).

The problem with trying to ram the Mon Calamari Cruiser to knock it away from the SF is that, 1. They aren't going to get many tries before it hits the station. 2. Even if the front of the ship is smashed in and the ship in all messed up, it still has the mass to damage the SF. 3. The ramming ships could be knocked towards the SF.

The Rebel shipyards could very well outpreform the Star Forge, we have no evidence of it however. But still they might be able to do it. However they do have to get their ships to the Star Forge... The Star Forge already has it ships at the Star Forge. The rebels have an advantage when fighting everywhere, the only thing is they aren't fighting everywhere they are fighting at a centralized location. So even if they could outcreate the Star Forge it would take them some time to get those ships there.

Well if a ship would ram the front of the cruiser it would definitly slow down, if a second would do that.... Now of course the ramming ships could be knocked towards the Star Forge but in the same way the rebel ship could be knocked away from it. and the Sith ships are probably going to be easily destroyed in case something goes wrong. At least assuming that the rebels don't start sending suicide ships from the start, and that Revan had the time to prepare for the possibility.

They would most likely try a lot of things before that. Still ramming is a possible option, more likely to succeed then others, probably.

Originally posted by Council#13
Revan wins

Fishy, have we come to an agreement that the Rebels can take Revan and the SF, or do we need to continue arguing over this.

Originally posted by Fishy
Where the hell does that come from? Even when they were still fighting a war at all fronts the Star Forge had a pretty reasonable fleet there. Enough to stand up against the entire Republic fleet. In most wars, a lot of troops can retreat to the last stronghold. This would probably not be an exeption. If there is any troop problem inside the shield then its going to be to much, and Revan would have to weaken his forces be able to survive there. He wouldn't face problems with to few people or ships for that mater cause the SF still poops out ships at amazing speed.

Fishy...obviously you don't have any idea about the size of the Rebel's Navy. They have thousands of ships...yet one of their more "massive" ships (MC cruisers) has enough firepower to take 100s of Revan's ships out which - I like to point it out again - have no defence against ion canons. Revan's entire fleet will turn into a useless mass of flying metal within minutes or will simply be destroyed because they can't simply content with the Rebels.

The Sith had been there for a very long time, the Elders saw them move in and out of the temple for a very long time.

And actually if he would spot the incoming army's, he shoot at them from the air. He could place more Sith in the area to take down the heavily weakened rebel army thats probably still under attack as they run/march towards the temple. Not to mention that if Revan really fears an invasion he could start blocking the path, lay mines set traps whatever. Its not that far fetched to think he would defend that thing.

He'll shoot at them from the air with ships that will get attacked by the Rebels own starships and can't survive the onslaught of a space battle ? Mines that can easily be spotted and cleared ? Traps against people who are running around with advanced bio-scanners ?

Well the Rebel fleet isn't any problem because it isn't there.. and if it is its disabled. Mobile shield units, yeah okay. But have you seen the rebels ever use that. and would it help against mines, would it also stand against a full bombardment from the Sith fleet? I doubt it, once they get closer to the temple they will probably just be bombed by fighters. More and more people will die. Not to mention the fact that there is a very big chance that the mobile shield units along with every other electronic unit thingie won't work. Because of the shield thats surrounding them all.

Why won't the Rebel fleet be there or why would it be disabled ? They have weapons (missles) with a range of some million kilometres. I don't see anything stopping the Rebels from using them and again Revan's forces a pretty much screwed.

Actually, if thats your capitol it wouldn't be all that stupid to do.

Yeah. It is. Why would you give someone the ability to disable the shield that protects your main "weapon" (the SF) if the shield is generated on the main weapon and could operate completely independant from the planet ?

And this will make them know where the rest is going to land? they won't have communication devices anymore.

They can PLAN where they want to land BEFORE starting with it.

Very true, but still an ambush by even a dozen Mandelorians can be very effective. When the enemy is properly surrounded they can do a lot of damage, hide behind the rocks fire with heavy repeating blasters. Its going to hurt the rebels badly. At least 12 are death because of the first shot, but they are going to fire fast, before the first rebel would react there could easily be 20 to 30 deaths and or heavily wounded.

You're talking about the same mandalorians that were killed by 3 (!) people ?

Why the hell not? I really don't see any reason why he couldn't form a great defence on that planet? Not one. He has the troops, he still has the technology, he has the weapons. He has Sith Lords and he's a military genius. Whats to stop him from creating an incredible defense there?

At the beginning of the Mandalorian wars he had 1/3 of the Republic's forces and probably 50 % of the Jedi. He lost some of that during the Mandalorian Wars. Where does he get the people from to outnumber the Rebel's forces ? Yet even if he manages to build up some considerable defence their the Rebels could simply erradicate the entire area by dropping one of their capital ships on it.

and the rebel army still is limited in numbers because of landing space. If they land all over the iland, then they are going to be seperated, they will be isolated and slaughtered in smaller groups.

Oh. Don't you think they won't be able to move through 100s or 500s or 1 Kilometre of water ? And beside of that there's plenty space to land near the island and we haven't seen the other half of the island yet.

Explain to me how the rebel ships shields suddenly stop everything but the Star Forge shields, the planeterial shields and the shields on the Sith ships don't help that much? How come?

We have seen that you can fly through the SF shields and the planetary shields but you can't fly through ship defence shields as it's shown in ROTJ. They stop matter. Same goes for the shields of the Death Star in ROTJ.

Also its not going to be fire power, they are going to ram rebel ships at full speed, like you or glentract wanted the rebel ships to ram the Star Forge at full speed. With an infinite fleet piloted by droids with only one goal, its going to hurt as hell. Those ships are going to be in great pain. And will at the best of times need repairs.

The only thing they're going to ram will be the Rebel ships shield. But first they have to come even close to the Rebel ships and since they are outnumbered and outmatched in terms of firepower and have no shielding technology they won't be able to do that...

In space the Rebel fleet is far more powerful then Revan his fleet, i'm not debating that. He would have lost there. But he still has the advantage when it comes to defending his own planet.

The point is that the Rebels can drop everything they have down there and that's more than Revan has. Even if Revan can stop the first assault and the second and so on the Rebels can throw wave after wave of troops down there and Revan's forces will be defeated over time. If the Rebels can provide some fire from space it's nearly useless to try and defend the planet. And even if Revan would be able to defend the planet he would still lose because he can't get away from his own system...

you know, no one would read everything you just wrote

I just did...

Anyways to go back on topic, i'll reply on most things later on. I just returned from a Lan party and after 30+ hours of being awake my mind doesn't work like it should.

Anyways a few things Nai, they won't know any specifics about the planet when outside the shield and they won't be able to talk to other people inside the shield. So really a organised landing isn't going to happen. Well its going to happen but not as well as you figured.

And the Sith fleet isn't going to face the rebel fleet because they will be on the other side of the shield. Far outside the planets reach. Now the rebels could tire out the Sith Empire, but do you think thats something they would do? Would they be willing to risk all those people there lives and sacrifise them all, for basically nothing that could not be negotiated. Revan isn't a fool, I doubt he would try to continue fighting against the Rebels if they offered him an alternative.

Revan in no way can win this battle, but I do not really see him losing it, simply because taking or destroying the Star Forge is to hard to do. Its not really a good option.

Originally posted by Fishy
Anyways a few things Nai, they won't know any specifics about the planet when outside the shield and they won't be able to talk to other people inside the shield. So really a organised landing isn't going to happen. Well its going to happen but not as well as you figured.

Scanners, Fishy. They can scan the surface of the planet and if Luke can find Yoda on a swamp planet by scanning the surface I'm pretty sure the Rebel's can find the island with the Temple. Especially when Revan placed an entire army around it.

And the Sith fleet isn't going to face the rebel fleet because they will be on the other side of the shield. Far outside the planets reach. Now the rebels could tire out the Sith Empire, but do you think thats something they would do? Would they be willing to risk all those people there lives and sacrifise them all, for basically nothing that could not be negotiated. Revan isn't a fool, I doubt he would try to continue fighting against the Rebels if they offered him an alternative.

Of course they would normally try to offer him an alternative but this is a versus thread and such ideas are pretty much out of line here. 😉

Revan in no way can win this battle, but I do not really see him losing it, simply because taking or destroying the Star Forge is to hard to do. Its not really a good option.

See...the Rebels still have the advantage that they would be able to operate outside the system if they need to which means they could just build another Death Star (they have the plans) and simply blow the SF away or destroy the planet if needed.

@Council#13:
Really...I couldn't care less about the question if you read my reply or not and if you don't have anything to add to the topic why don't you keep your mouse arrow away from the "submit reply" button instead dropping another line of useless nonsens, eh ? Or did you need a higher post count to compensate for something ? 😛

Well the scanners would logically not work Nai, because of the shield.

And I do know this is a versus thread and if this would have to be carried out to the end then yes Revan would be destroyed but the casualty's amongst the Rebel Alliance would be enormous. Caused primarily by the defense of the Star Forge and the temple of ancients where Revan just has an incredible advantage.

and I agree they could build a Death Star it would take them some time though, they would need to finish it then move it towards the Star Forge shoot, well okay the last thing wouldn't be to hard. But still the casualty rate for the rebellion is going to be so huge if they try to take the Forge that it would be far more logical for them to negotiate a truce or lock Revan up in his system.

in both cases Revan does not get destroyed by the Rebel Alliance his last stronghold is just to hard to take.

Yeah, no way the Rebels could ever go down to a planet, deactivate a super weapons shields, and then make an attack that finishes it off, no way, could never be done.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yeah, no way the Rebels could ever go down to a planet, deactivate a super weapons shields, and then make an attack that finishes it off, no way, could never be done.

Thats probably sarcasm, its always hard to tell online, especially when you don't know the people that are making the posts.

The difference between this situation and ROTJ is however that there is no information about anything except for the fact that there is a system of which they know nothing and a strange thing that is probably a factory but they can't be sure.

Then there is the fact that the planet is defended by Dark Jedi and probably all set up for an incoming attack. On Endor Palpatine didn't care enough to inform his troops about it, he didn't take out the ship as soon as it moved towards the moon he just let it happen thinking his troops were good enough to handle the situation. Do you see Revan making the same mistake? I sure as hell do not, the guy is not an idiot.

Palp said his best troops were waiting for the rebels on Endor

Your point being?

How would he know a bunch of Ewoks could defeat his Storm Troopers?

Thats not the point now is it? He didn't care to stop the attacking group even though he had plenty of chances he never even cared about it. Revan would care about it, making the two situations completely different, and Sith Lords are still far more powerful and skilled then even the greatest of troops under Palpatine his control.

You mean Palp didn't do anything to the strike force heading to Endor in the Imperial Shuttle when they could have blasted them away?

Originally posted by Shadow x 20
You mean Palp didn't do anything to the strike force heading to Endor in the Imperial Shuttle when they could have blasted them away?

Yeah he could have easily stopped that all from happening he didn't. Jollyism suggested that doing something like they did on Endor again was far from impossible. I was just saying that if Palpatine would have wanted the threat stopped above all else he could have done so a hundred times before they even became a threat, or a dozen more times later on.

If Palp didn't want any threat he wouldn't have given away the location of the Death Star to the rebels in the first place

Exactly, making Jollyism his post worthless...

Rebels decimate the Sith Empire.