Originally posted by TheGodKiller
According to what Immortus said, the creation of those timelines in that particular day was a unique, and a historic event. And the prime timeline usually only splits when someone goes back from a particular future to undo the events of the past. It's not like the universe is some cosmic queen bee, randomly spouting out new futures from a hyperdimensional ovipositor.
Time travel isn't the only thing that is creating alternate timelines, far from it. There are infinite timelines. There are certainly conflicting accounts from TVA, Kang, Captain Britain Corps and LL&L, but it has been said before that for every choice a character makes, it creates a time line where they made the opposite choice.
Kang is obviously particularly interested in these seven so called prime time lines that he rules and what happens if the Apoc Twins destroy them... but I doubt anyone in the Ultimate Universe or M2 or anyone of the hundred alt universes we know about gives two f@cks about it.
Originally posted by ODG
How many examples will suffice? One? Two? Let me know. I'm not interested in refreshing my memory, digging up issue #s, and putting 30 minutes of work into it only for it to be ignored.
As many as you can come up with, I'm genuinely curious.
If you are asking me if you'll be able to come up with enough examples to counter balance the dozens and dozens and dozens of examples we've all seen characters time traveling and meet themselves without being absorbed or blinking the other character out of existence, I guess the answer is no?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Time travel isn't the only thing that is creating alternate timelines, far from it. There are infinite timelines. There are certainly conflicting accounts from TVA, Kang, Captain Britain Corps and LL&L, but it has been said before that for every choice a character makes, it creates a time line where they made the opposite choice.Kang is obviously particularly interested in these seven so called prime time lines that he rules and what happens if the Apoc Twins destroy them... but I doubt anyone in the Ultimate Universe or M2 or anyone of the hundred alt universes we know about gives two f@cks about it.
The funny part is that it wasn't even the real Kang who told all that to Cap, it was Immortus, and he very clearly stated that all of those 7 timelines are also prime timelines. It doesn't make sense, but then few things in comics do.
Edit: On a sidenote, that Seven Futures idea seems to be heavily borrowed from the Faith of the Seven thing from Game of Thrones.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
You just contradicted yourself in the first paragraph. If an infinite number of parallel universe already exist(and the evidence for such has been showcased before by entities like the Living Tribunal, whose word I'll take over the likes of the TVA and Captain Britain Corps), then it is fairly redundant to assume that the universe is constantly popping out baby timelines like a queen been from it's cosmic superdimensional ovipositor.The funny part is that it wasn't even the real Kang who told all that to Cap, it was Immortus, and he very clearly stated that all of those 7 timelines are also prime timelines. It doesn't make sense, but then few things in comics do.
Um... how does acknowledging that new universes are constantly being created and spinning out of one another contradict the fact that there are infinite universes? If new Universes weren't being constantly created, there wouldn't be an infinite amount of them. If the universes all just existed in perpetuity independent of one an other, there wouldn't be an infinite amount of them, it's the fact that they are all - not just 616 - constantly spinning out and creating new universes that makes the number of universes infinite.
I'm just saying. If you asked anyone one of the Reed Richards from the Council of Reeds which Universe was the Prime Universe and the most important... they would probably all say their own. Immortus inflating the importance of a group of timelines as they relate to himself doesn't make those other six timelines as important as the 616 to me as a reader.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Um... how does acknowledging that new universes are constantly being created and spinning out of one another contradict the fact that there are infinite universes? If new Universes weren't being constantly created, there wouldn't be an infinite amount of them. If the universes all just existed in perpetuity independent of one an other, there wouldn't be an infinite amount of them, it's the fact that they are all - not just 616 - constantly spinning out and creating new universes that makes the number of universes infinite.I'm just saying. If you asked anyone one of the Reed Richards from the Council of Reeds which Universe was the Prime Universe and the most important... they would probably all say their own. Immortus inflating the importance of a group of timelines as they relate to himself doesn't make those other six timelines as important as the 616 to me as a reader.
I doubt that any member of the Council would be foolhardy enough to say that. One of them(a founding member) schooled Val and Nathaniel in a temporal mechanics problem they had in FF#14. Anyways, this example isn't valid here because Immortus also referred to the current timeline as the prime timeline. His emphasis on the 7 divergent futures also being prime timelines, after already declaring that 616 is the prime timeline, is clearly indicative of these futures being unique(along with the fact that the particular day all 7 of them were created is considered a historic moment). If you're making this assumption based on personal preference as a reader, then sure, fine, whatever, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But don't try to dispute the on-panel evidence, which makes it very clear that those 7 futures are also prime timelines.
Edit: Also check out edit in previous post.
Originally posted by ODGI'm guessing you've reflected on this yourself and easily come up with more than a handful of examples on your own.
How many examples will suffice? One? Two? Let me know. I'm not interested in refreshing my memory, digging up issue #s, and putting 30 minutes of work into it only for it to be ignored.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Because if an infinite number of universes already exist, then it goes to show that a particular event or action that could potentially trigger the creation of a new timeline has already happened in one of those universes. An infinite amount of universes doesn't exist because an unknown number of them are being created all the time. For every action/event that could result in a new timeline being split, the total number of universes that exist at any given moment in time would still be finite. No, infinite universes exist because of the concept of infinite possibilities, which has been explored multiple times in comics in general and Marvel in specific.I doubt that any member of the Council would be foolhardy enough to say that. One of them(a founding member) schooled Val and Nathaniel in a temporal mechanics problem they had in FF#14. Anyways, this example isn't valid here because Immortus also referred to the current timeline as the prime timeline. His emphasis on the 7 divergent futures also being prime timelines, after already declaring that 616 is the prime timeline, is clearly indicative of these futures being unique(along with the fact that the particular day all 7 of them were created is considered a historic moment). If you're making this assumption based on personal preference as a reader, then sure, fine, whatever, it's your opinion you're entitled to it. But don't try to dispute the on-panel evidence, which makes it very clear that those 7 futures are also prime timelines.
An infinite number of universe can't already exist, that isn't how infinite works. If they just existed, and that was it... that would be the very definition of finite. The reason it is infinite, the reason it is incalculable is because new universes are being created every second. Every choice spawns a new branching off reality. The Universe is infinitely vast because it is constantly expanding, the same goes for alternate realities.
Except Earth 616 is not itself the Prime timeline... hence the 616 designation. Somewhere out there is a Earth 1 or Earth 0, it just doesn't matter to us because the by sheer happenstance the comics we read are set on Earth 616. Immortus acknowledging 616 doesn't and credence to anything...
Not really sure what you mean about the Faith of the Seven thing. I thought that was more of an extended Holy Trinity type thing, seven aspects of one supreme being. What does that have to do with alternate realities?
Originally posted by ODG
I'm guessing you've reflected on this yourself and easily come up with more than a handful of examples on your own.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
As many as you can come up with, I'm genuinely curious.If you are asking me if you'll be able to come up with enough examples to counter balance the dozens and dozens and dozens of examples we've all seen characters time traveling and meet themselves without being absorbed or blinking the other character out of existence, I guess the answer is no?
^ Counterbalance? If it's counterbalancing, than it is exactly what I said it to be. An "either, or" proposition.
As it stands, I only need to provide one to cure you of any doubt that they ever happened like you intimated here:
Originally posted by srankmissingninSo let me know when you're done moving the goalposts. Like I said, I'm not going to waste my time if you're just going to pretend it doesn't count. Either take a stance or don't.
When has either of those things happened in Marvel?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
An infinite number of universe can't already exist, that isn't how infinite works. If they just existed, and that was it... that would be the very definition of finite. The reason it is infinite, the reason it is incalculable is because new universes are being created every second. Every choice spawns a new branching off reality. The Universe is infinitely vast because it is constantly expanding, the same goes for alternate realities.Except Earth 616 is not itself the Prime timeline... hence the 616 designation. Somewhere out there is a Earth 1 or Earth 0, it just doesn't matter to us because the by sheer happenstance the comics we read are set on Earth 616. Immortus acknowledging 616 doesn't and credence to anything...
Not really sure what you mean about the Faith of the Seven thing. I thought that was more of an extended Holy Trinity type thing, seven aspects of one supreme being. What does that have to do with alternate realities?
Except Earth-616 has been noted to be the prime reality in a number or stories, where the fate of the whole multiverse/omniverse hanged in the balance if 616 was threatened. There's a reason that Dormammu/Umar attained seemingly multiversal level of power by usurping 616-Eternity. Or that the multiverse got recreated/rebooted when 616-Eternity allowed himself to be blown to bits by Genis-Vell. 616 is what holds it all together. Blow it up and BAM, everything gets undone. Immortus admitting that it's the prime timeline, and then going on to say that these 7 futures are also prime timelines, is clearly telling of their unique nature.
Oh that's just an interesting side point that I noted based on Remender having referenced the Game of Thrones before on an online interview. And Faith of the Seven, because it deals specifically with seven deities, to the point that the whole Westerosi continent is divided into "Seven Kingdoms" in the series.
Originally posted by ODG
^ Counterbalance? If it's counterbalancing, than it is exactly what I said it to be. An "either, or" proposition.As it stands, I only need to provide one to cure you of any doubt that they ever happened like you intimated here: So let me know when you're done moving the goalposts. Like I said, I'm not going to waste my time if you're just going to pretend it doesn't count. Either take a stance or don't.
Except it's not an either or proposition, that implies they are both equal. They aren't. I'm willing to believe that what you presented has happened, there are hundred of thousands of Marvel comics written by different writers, edited by different editors, stuff falls through the cracks periodically. You presented your case as though it was just as likely as what I was suggesting... it isn't. I can't think of a single example of what you laid out off the top of my head. I can think of dozens, and dozens and dozens of times where Marvel has represented time travel as I stated they have.
If you can name an example, that's fine, I'll take it for what it is, but you won't change my mind... because I'm right.
Originally posted by srankmissingninYou're "right" to doubt that its ever happened in Marvel, ever? Like I said, either take a stance or don't. I also like how you brag about having dozens of examples... like you doubt that I do for my own part?
Except it's not an either or proposition, that implies they are both equal. They aren't. I'm willing to believe that what you presented has happened, there are hundred of thousands of Marvel comics written by different writers, edited by different editors, stuff falls through the cracks periodically. You presented your case as though it was just as likely as what I was suggesting... it isn't. I can't think of a single example of what you laid out off the top of my head. I can think of dozens, and dozens and dozens of times where Marvel has represented time travel as I stated they have.If you can name an example, that's fine, I'll take it for what it is, but you won't change my mind... because I'm right.
But not the first time someone's moved the goalposts to avoid having to own up to a rather foolish position. It's why I forced you to bear down on it, after all. Not my first rodeo, pal.
Originally posted by ODG
You're "right" to doubt that its ever happened in Marvel, ever? Like I said, either take a stance or don't. I also like how you brag about having dozens of examples... like you doubt that I do for my own part?But not the first time someone's moved the goalposts to avoid having to own up to a rather foolish position. It's why I forced you to bear down on it, after all. Not my first rodeo, pal.
I never said I doubt the existence of your examples, I merely asked what they were, because I can't think of a single one.
Originally posted by srankmissingninYou're not thinking very hard. I don't mean that as an insult. I mean... it's really really easy to think of examples both old and new (and that's just Marvel). How many would I have to provide to have you do a double-take? Honest question.
I never said I doubt the existence of your examples, I merely asked what they were, because I can't think of a single one.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I am not sure exactly what you're trying to say here. That if an actual infinity(infinite number of alternate realities) existed, then somehow [b]THAT would be the very definition of finite? No, let me correct you. That would be the very definition of a contradiction-muddled sentence. We've already been told by greater authorities on this subject(Living Tribunal) that infinite alternate universes already exist. We have already seen on-panel the concept of "infinite possibilities" being linked to the concept of parallel realities. It is logically impossible for an infinite number of universes to exist simply because a (large)number of timelines are being born every second. Because if that were the case, the total number of realities in the multiverse/megaverse/omniverse would be finite. It would be an astronomically large number, but still finite. Now that we have settled this, let's get back to the crux of this discussion: which is that universes only pop out new timelines because of time travel related shenanigans, not because they're the cosmic equivalent of queen bees and are constantly spouting new realities from a hyperdimensional ovipositor.Except Earth-616 has been noted to be the prime reality in a number or stories, where the fate of the whole multiverse/omniverse hanged in the balance if 616 was threatened. There's a reason that Dormammu/Umar attained seemingly multiversal level of power by usurping 616-Eternity. Or that the multiverse got recreated/rebooted when 616-Eternity allowed himself to be blown to bits by Genis-Vell. 616 is what holds it all together. Blow it up and BAM, everything gets undone. Immortus admitting that it's the prime timeline, and then going on to say that these 7 futures are also prime timelines, is clearly telling of their unique nature.
Oh that's just an interesting side point that I noted based on Remender having referenced the Game of Thrones before on an online interview. And Faith of the Seven, because it deals specifically with seven deities, to the point that the whole Westerosi continent is divided into "Seven Kingdoms" in the series. [/B]
...
What I'm saying is that an infinite amount of realities can not simply exist. It is the very fact that new universes are popping up every second, for every choice that has ever made a new universe is created where a different choice was made. We've been told as much. Living Tribunal saying there are infinite universes doesn't contradicts that... that's the set of governing principles that allows for what he said to be true. If what you were presenting was the case, and we just started out with a set amount of universes (which is finite fyi) that from time to time created new realities because of time travel and other rare occurrences, there would not be an infinite amount of universes, just a mind boggling large amount that could be calculated.
The Prime Universe in Marvel has been expressly stated to be Earth 1218, which is for all extensive purposes our reality. 616 is just the reality we read about, it's importance outside of that is minimal. The same stuff is happening in other realities, we just aren't privy to the details.
Originally posted by ODG
You're not thinking very hard. I don't mean that as an insult. I mean... it's really really easy to think of examples both old and new (and that's just Marvel). How many would I have to provide to have you do a double-take? Honest question.
Just list them and stop insulting me.
