Just noticed this:
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The Universe is infinitely vast because it is constantly expanding, the same goes for alternate realities.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Nova's series established that the 616 universe has definite boundaries.http://i46.tinypic.com/534kgh.jpg
(They later reached the Rip they were talking about)
Originally posted by srankmissingninI told you flatly, I wasn't insulting you. I just disbelieve that you can't even think about one should you even put five honest minutes thinking about it and/or doubt that you are even willing to try as you'd be actively upending your own initial instincts on this issue.
Just list them and stop insulting me.
But your vacillating between requesting a single instance and an entire list, you still haven't even given me a reason to think you are going to take any response seriously.
As in, I list one, and you'll go off on a schpeal about how you have a dozen famous ones off the top of your head.
Then I list a dozen, and you'll go off on another schpeal about how you can think of no less than thirty examples.
Then I list thirty, and you'll go off and argue that you can't even remember how many there are, maybe a hundred.
Like I said, I won't waste my time with someone who is telegraphing that they'll move the goalposts. I don't appreciate having my efforts dismissed out of hand. Which isn't entirely your fault. But it is what it is. And I know it when I see it. Which is why, in my last post, I was aiming simply to make you do a double-take over it. But you won't even give me this goalpost to aim for. Which is the very definition of moving the goalposts in an argument.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
...What I'm saying is that an infinite amount of realities can [b]not
simply exist. It is the very fact that new universes are popping up every second, for every choice that has ever made a new universe is created where a different choice was made. We've been told as much. Living Tribunal saying there are infinite universes doesn't contradicts that... that's the set of governing principles that allows for what he said to be true. If what you were presenting was the case, and we just started out with a set amount of universes (which is finite fyi) that from time to time created new realities because of time travel and other rare occurrences, there would not be an infinite amount of universes, just a mind boggling large amount that could be calculated.The Prime Universe in Marvel has been expressly stated to be Earth 1218, which is for all extensive purposes our reality. 616 is just the reality we read about, it's importance outside of that is minimal. The same stuff is happening in other realities, we just aren't privy to the details. [/B]
I'd like to see scans of this or a reference to a comic issue number, along with additional instances of on-panel corroboration(other comics that have made such a claim). Because the evidence in favor of Earth-616 being the prime reality is so overwhelming, it's practically a fool's prerogative to claim that it isn't the case.
Originally posted by ODG
I told you flatly, I wasn't insulting you. I just disbelieve that you can't even think about one should you even put five honest minutes thinking about it and/or doubt that you are even willing to try as you'd be actively upending your own initial instincts on this issue.But your vacillating between requesting a single instance and an entire list, you still haven't even given me a reason to think you are going to take any response seriously.
As in, I list one, and you'll go off on a schpeal about how you have a dozen famous ones off the top of your head.
Then I list a dozen, and you'll go off on another schpeal about how you can think of no less than thirty examples.
Then I list thirty, and you'll go off and argue that you can't even remember how many there are, maybe a hundred.
Like I said, I won't waste my time with someone who is telegraphing that they'll move the goalposts. I don't appreciate having my efforts dismissed out of hand. Which isn't entirely your fault. But it is what it is. And I know it when I see it. Which is why, in my last post, I was aiming simply to make you do a double-take over it. But you won't even give me this goalpost to aim for. Which is the very definition of moving the goalposts in an argument.
I'm not moving the goal post, there is no goal post. I don't have an agenda, this isn't a contest, I'm merely curious of what these - apparently - obvious and extremely numerous examples are that I can't I can't not think of are that you know. I telling you right now, I can not think of a single example were two of the same characters from different timelines met and are then merged into one being, I can however think of dozens of examples where the same character met a past, or future version of themselves and the two fought each other, or teamed up or one was given advice, or whatever.
The closest thing I could come up with is post HoM, but that isn't even remotely the same thing as what you were suggesting.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I was talking about our universe, not Marvel. We know things about the Marvel Universe we don't know about our own. We know how it started, we know how it ends.
Anyways, our universe isn't infinitely vast either. Claiming that it is so simply based on the fact that our universe is expanding, is quite dishonest, as at any given point in time, the universe is still finite, until the Big Rip when the universe itself will die.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Based on what are you making this claim then? Appeal to authority from different comics that have dealt with the multiverse and alternate futures? Again, new universes popping up every second because of random actions isn't the reason that infinite realities exist, if anything, the total number of realities would be finite if all the alternate universes' existence depended on this single pheonomena. Again, if we start off from a finite set of universes, then at any given point in the future, only a finite number of realities would exist. Basic logic dictates that it is literally impossible for a finite object to actually become infinite in a finite duration of time. What you're saying would be true only an infinite number of years into the future, and seeing how time itself is finite, the foundation of your argument falls. Yes, only a mind boggling large amount would be the result, which is exactly what I have been saying all along. For parallel realities to be infinite in number, they must already exist from the get-go, which is what the Living Tribunal implied during his conversation with Dr Strange.I'd like to see scans of this or a reference to a comic issue number, along with additional instances of on-panel corroboration(other comics that have made such a claim). Because the evidence in favor of Earth-616 being the prime reality is so overwhelming, it's practically a fool's prerogative to claim that it isn't the case.
Based on what am I making my claim? Um... The Watcher saying it? Like verbatim. I think its even on the title page of several old What Ifs. Unless the Living Tribunal said "Universes just exist, your choices don't spawn new ones." I'm inclined to believe everything you've said is baseless speculation... and something about bees.
I'll see if I can find a scan of Earth 1218 being called Prime when I have some time. Anyway 1218 is "our" earth. Everything that happens in 616 happens because it was published in a comic book on Earth 1218.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Based on what am I making my claim? Um... The Watcher saying it? Like verbatim. I think its even on the title page of several old What Ifs. Unless the Living Tribunal said "Universes just exist, your choices don't spawn new ones." I'm inclined to believe everything you've said is baseless speculation... and something about bees.I'll see if I can find a scan of Earth 1218 being called Prime when I have some time. Anyway 1218 is "our" earth. Everything that happens in 616 happens because it was published in a comic book on Earth 1218.
I found it. New Exiles#3. I doubt it has been referred to in any other comics, so it can be dismissed in favor of the (more) abundant evidence that alludes to Earth-616 being the prime reality.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
You mean to tell me that you've been mixing up rl ideas regarding the universe with our comic-centric discussion? That weakens your argument even further then.Anyways, our universe isn't infinitely vast either. Claiming that it is so simply based on the fact that our universe is expanding, is quite dishonest, as at any given point in time, the universe is still finite, until the Big Rip when the universe itself will die.
No I just thought it would be a simple and concise comparison because you seemed to be getting confused.
Are we going to get into theoretical science here? There is just as much data that to suggest the universe is infinite and its merely being stretched out, as there is that it is finite and expanding into something else. And don't get me started on the Big Rip.
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Appeal to authority(of a lower-ranking cosmic no less) it is then. How is the Tribunal telling Strange that "Man's universe has infinite variants known as alternate universes" concurrent with your line of thought? Because, he's practically stating it on-panel that infinite parallel realities already exist. I am inclined to believe everything you've said is a contradiction-muddled mess, mixing/confusing rl concepts with comic book concepts along with a thorough misunderstanding of how infinities work in both comics and rl logic.I found it. New Exiles#3. I doubt it has been referred to in any other comics, so it can be dismissed in favor of the (more) abundant evidence that alludes to Earth-616 being the prime reality.
I fail to see how that can even be remotely be interpreted as a contradiction to what The Watcher has said. He has said man's universe has infinite variants. It does... because every choice that has ever been made has spawned a new reality. Where is the contradiction?
I'm sure Deadpool has made the reference as well. Anyway if everything that happens in 616 happens because it was drawn in a comic book 1218... then how can 616 be the Prime Reality? 616 only exists because it was created in 1218.
This discussion should be bumped into a different thread, any ideas?
Originally posted by srankmissingninSo now you don't even care about all the times where a time-traveler returns from having changed the past into his relative present (which is now different) and not running into a variant version of himself already running around and just retaking his relevant place in that new timeline (although, theoretically, there should be a brand new present self already there)?
I'm not moving the goal post, there is no goal post. I don't have an agenda, this isn't a contest, I'm merely curious of what these - apparently - obvious and extremely numerous examples are that I can't I can't not think of are that you know. I telling you right now, I can not think of a [b]single example were two of the same characters from different timelines met and are then merged into one being, I can however think of dozens of examples where the same character met a past, or future version of themselves and the two fought each other, or teamed up or one was given advice, or whatever.The closest thing I could come up with is post HoM, but that isn't even remotely the same thing as what you were suggesting. [/B]
Y'know... the situation that we were originally arguing played out in Age of Ultron #10? Emphasis on originally. Because now you're trying to focus on one narrow sliver of my response talking about a forcible merger via timestream mechanics... and only after a meet-and-greet has occurred, e.g., future Genis-Vell merging with present Rick Jones after Avengers Forever, etc.
If that's what you were arguing against the entire time -- a rather bastardized fraction of my entire response to your initial position -- than this has proven to be a complete waste of time. But I knew that already.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I fail to see how that can even be remotely be interpreted as a contradiction to what The Watcher has said. He has said man's universe has infinite variants. It does... because every choice that has ever been made has spawned a new reality. Where is the contradiction?I'm sure Deadpool has made the reference as well. Anyway if everything that happens in 616 happens because it was drawn in a comic book 1218... then how can 616 be the Prime Reality? 616 only exists because it was created in 1218.
This discussion should be bumped into a different thread, any ideas?
Deadpool's references are about as reliable as those of a deranged schizophrenic who goes about gunslinging and wearing a skirt in zoos. Since it was a standalone reference in a New Exiles comic, then how can we be sure that it is the prime reality? Because, going by that logic the universe which the Marquis of Death originated from can also be called the prime reality. There is sufficient evidence for 616 being the prime reality. That much is not up for debate,
I believe that you can post in the Marvel Cosmology thread in the Comic Books section, if you want to outsource this discussion to another thread.
Originally posted by ODG
So now you don't even care about all the times where a time-traveler returns from having changed the past into his relative present (which is now different) and not running into a variant version of himself already running around and just retaking his relevant place in that new timeline (although, theoretically, there should be a brand new present self already there)?Y'know... the situation that we were [b]originally
arguing played out in Age of Ultron #10? Emphasis on originally. Because now you're trying to focus on one narrow sliver of my response talking about a forcible merger via timestream mechanics... and only after a meet-and-greet has occurred, e.g., future Genis-Vell merging with present Rick Jones after Avengers Forever, etc.If that's what you were arguing against the entire time -- a rather bastardized fraction of my entire response to your initial position -- than this has proven to be a complete waste of time. But I knew that already. [/B]
You can cite those examples too, I'm just not really interested in those as I am with two characters merging into one being. Again: I'm not arguing with you - I am legitimately curious about what these examples are. Stop being so defensive all the time.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No I just thought it would be a simple and concise comparison because you seemed to be getting confused.Are we going to get into theoretical science here? There is just as much data that to suggest the universe is infinite and its merely being stretched out, as there is that it is finite and expanding into something else. And don't get me started on the Big Rip.
Nope, there is absolutely no data that indicates that the universe is infinite in any way, shape or form, even if we dismiss the hypothesis put forth by theoretical physicists.
Originally posted by srankmissingninWhy wouldn't you be interested in those examples that are exactly what I argued happened in Age of Ultron #10 right from the start? That's a rhetorical question.
You can cite those examples too, I'm just not really interested in those. Again: I'm not arguing with you - I am [b]legitimately curious about what these examples are. Stop being so defensive all the time. [/B]
I know exactly why you don't care. Because within the time it takes me to jerk one out, you'd come up with a dozen examples yourself of a time-traveler returning from the past just taking his proper relative spot in that new timestream without any issue.
Somehow, now you're just completely entranced with the notion of time-travelers meet-and-greeting-and-merging with their adjusted counterparts due to timestream mechanics like Genis-Vell, Korvac, etc.
This is what we call moving the goalposts. Didn't see that one coming. Oh, wait... I did.
Originally posted by ODG
Why wouldn't you be interested in those examples that are [b]exactly what I argued happened in Age of Ultron #10 right from the start? That's a rhetorical question.I know exactly why you don't care. Because within the time it takes me to jerk one out, you'd come up with a dozen examples yourself of a time-traveler returning from the past just taking his proper relative spot in that new timestream without any issue.
Somehow, now you're just completely entranced with the notion of time-travelers meet-and-greeting-and-merging with their adjusted counterparts due to timestream mechanics like Genis-Vell, Korvac, etc.
This is what we call moving the goalposts. Didn't see that one coming. Oh, wait... I did. [/B]
I'm not arguing with you about AoU, because I already know what happened there. AoU Wolverine created an alternate time line and in that alternate time line there was another separate Wolverine. That can't be argued. We saw the two of them together on panel. The talked, they fought, AoU Wolverine killed AoM Wolverine off panel before time traveling again this time to 616. Implying that the rules changed in between issues defies credulity and logic. Based on the representation of time travel in the story, and how it is usually portrayed in Marvel, there would be two different Wolverines in 616. Then reality shattered and I no longer need to worry about the logistics of the two Wolverine / Sue plot hole because it is easily swept under the rug by that catastrophe.
I'm sure I could, but what I can't do is recount a time when a time traveler changed something drastic enough that it would result in them never going back in time in the first place, and then returning to their normal timeline without encountering them self. But I don't care about that, I thought the other notion was interesting I would have liked to read some stories about that, but you are being hostile and evasive as always.
Originally posted by srankmissingninImplying that there were two Wolverines and two Susan Storms running around is even dumber. Had that AoM Wolverine returned to his present (our future), instead of committing suicide over his self-loathing at murdering Pym, the same sh1t probably would have happened.
I'm not arguing with you about AoU, because I already know what happened there. AoU Wolverine created an alternate time line and in that alternate time line there was another separate Wolverine. That can't be argued. We saw the two of them together on panel. The talked, they fought, AoU Wolverine killed AoM Wolverine off panel before time traveling again this time to 616. Implying that the rules changed in between issues defies credulity and logic. Based on the representation of time travel in the story, and how it is usually portrayed in Marvel, there would be two different Wolverines in 616. Then reality shattered and I no longer need to worry about the logistics of the two Wolverine / Sue plot hole because it is easily swept under the rug by that catastrophe.I'm sure I could, but what I can't do is recount a time when a time traveler changed something drastic enough that it would result in them never going back in time in the first place, and then returning to their normal timeline without encountering them self. But I don't care about that, I thought the other notion was interesting I would have liked to read some stories about that, but you are being hostile and evasive as always.
I already gave you examples of meet-and-greet-and-merge that you are just witlessly glossing over now. That's a new tactic, act like you can't even read it despite me mentioning examples twice already. As for time-travelers who went to the past and changed history and returned to a changed present without finding a duplicate of themselves already existing, you can look to the four times Iron Man's done it with Doom, the innumerable times Doom's done it to bang Morgana le Fay, the two times Kid Loki did it, the two times adult Loki did it, the several time jumps the West Coast Avengers did to the Wild West and ancient Egypt, Beast doing it in All New X-Men, etc.
Hell, Age of Ultron #10 showed a splash-page showing Thing as a pirate in one panel. Do you know what that references? That's from Fantastic Four #5 way back in Doom's first appearance. When they were thrown into the past, it turns out Thing masqueraded as Blackbeard the Pirate. When the Fantastic Four came back to the altered present, they didn't run into themselves then either. So there you have something from within the storyline itself that should cure your disbelief.
But then again, your disbelief was pointless in the first place. So why would it change now?
