Character Ownage

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Why? Readers like interesting characters. Not flawless ones.

Look at the other members of the Trinity. Batman, a human who makes Darkseid back down. Fights in hand to hand with gods and aliens and alien gods. Knows every martial art known to man,every language known to humans, is richer than God,immune to every poison there is, has better weaponry than half the governments out there, with his own batnuke and space ship (which entire countries don't have) etc etc....

Superman, a guy who is the strongest superhero,as fast as the fastest superhero, has will power greater or equal to the willpowerest superhero, who has tech from the most advanced civilisation in the universe bar the New Gods, has no real weaknesses (if you name red sun rads, magic or Kryptonite,just challenge Abhi to a BZ and he will scan dump 10,000 showings where Supes tanks/overpowers magical red Kryptonite suns)......

They're all pretty much Mary Sue characters.

It is pretty telling that storm despite being an ensemble character beat wondy due to fan votes. Her pull isnt as great as you would think.

Mary Sue = to good to be true character?

Dont get me wrong, none of the three are mary sues because they are archetype creators basically. They made the template so to speak.

They arent fan fiction or late entry characters meant to overshadow. But still, being perfect, and i would say wonder woman is far closer to perfect than either bats or supes, isnt all that interesting. This maybe why despite how important we are told she is, her actual popularity among female heroes was never at the top. This is despite the number of note worthy, respectable female heroes being much lower than for male heroes.

Her popularity amongst female heroes..... according to whom? Us males?

I'm only asking, because we have a literal (I think....) female fan coming in here and saying WW is the most popular female superhero amongst women...and we're pooh poohing her.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Look at the other members of the Trinity. Batman, a human who makes Darkseid back down. Fights in hand to hand with gods and aliens and alien gods. Knows every martial art known to man,every language known to humans, is richer than God,immune to every poison there is, has better weaponry than half the governments out there, with his own batnuke and space ship (which entire countries don't have) etc etc....

Superman, a guy who is the strongest superhero,as fast as the fastest superhero, has will power greater or equal to the willpowerest superhero, who has tech from the most advanced civilisation in the universe bar the New Gods, has no real weaknesses (if you name red sun rads, magic or Kryptonite,just challenge Abhi to a BZ and he will scan dump 10,000 showings where Supes tanks/overpowers magical red Kryptonite suns)......

They're all pretty much Mary Sue characters.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Mary Sue = to good to be true character?

It works for 10 years old, who don't want character complexities [it's basically playing with Action Figures], but they're not inspirational in any way.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Her popularity amongst female heroes..... according to whom? Us males?

I'm only asking, because we have a literal (I think....) female fan coming in here and saying WW is the most popular female superhero amongst women...and we're pooh poohing her.

And her reasons are that Wonder Woman literally has no emotional/physical weakness, and is tied to no man, and is inspired by no man.

As I said earlier, I don't think 'any' of her fans can say anything more than generic things about her. When you move out of the comic book community, it's zero knowledge, and people just 'know' that she's a feminist symbol, so they must like her. Marketing without substance, which was my initial point for the "Trinity" denomination.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
It is pretty telling that storm despite being an ensemble character beat wondy due to fan votes. Her pull isnt as great as you would think.

That was a significant while ago though. In today's time WW with her widely acclaim movie is probably at her most popular ever.

Originally posted by Philosophía
How am I butthurt for expressing my opinion? You're the one going all emotional here and "you have no idea what she means for women....I don't either, but it's beyond your comprehension". Grab some tissues.

So her character trait is that she has NO complex character traits? That she is not relatable in ANY way, who has NO weakness, NO complex relationships, no nothing? She is inspirational by not expressing anything other than lack of any kind of vulnerability? Jeez, way to sell your character!

Jean and Ororo are complex fully developed characters because they're great DESPITE their weaknesses. Batgirl is great because she has become her own person DESPITE all of the trauma she has encountered, despite living in Batman/Robin's shadow, rising above it as a fully formed character with a KNOWN and indispensable place in the DCU. NOTHING brought her down, not Joker, not her wheelchair, she FOUGHT through it and come out the other way a person that has faced her demons and overcome them.

You're saying that Wonder Woman, 'clay shaped by GODS in a bikini suit' perfection is more inspiring than that?

GTFO, Sin. You don't even know what inspiring means.

When did i say when wasnt relateable or did not have "complex" character traits. Way to misinterpret everything i said.

Supermans pretty much multiversal. Wayne is probably gonna bat kick one of the Endless and u mad at Diana because...semantics? And yall give Carver a hard time sheesh

Her movie was f#cking terrible, but hey, to each his own.

SWJ times benefit her well, no doubt.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Her popularity amongst female heroes..... according to whom? Us males?

I'm only asking, because we have a literal (I think....) female fan coming in here and saying WW is the most popular female superhero amongst women...and we're pooh poohing her.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3BSsq9VEAAC-wZ.jpg

Us deciding popular female characters.

Originally posted by Supermutant
That was a significant while ago though. In today's time WW with her widely acclaim movie is probably at her most popular ever.

If Marvel got their shit together and put out a strong female movie before hers, she'd have lost her place in the cultural backmind. But now she's full on most successful female superhero, with a female director, as a feminist icon. There's no moving her from there, and any other superhero from now on will seem like a try hard.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Her movie was f#cking terrible, but hey, to each his own.

SWJ times benefit her well, no doubt.

It was my favorite movie since The Dark Knight. I know, it doesn't seem like it.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Sure, but again, that's power level, not personality/inspiration, which is what Sin and I are talking about.

Mary Sue's are there solely for the reader to project whatever they want onto them, and which are good at everything. Rey really is the perfect example.

It works for 10 years old, who don't want character complexities [it's basically playing with Action Figures], but they're not inspirational in any way.

And her reasons are that Wonder Woman literally has no emotional/physical weakness, and is tied to no man, and is inspired by no man.

As I said earlier, I don't think 'any' of her fans can say anything more than generic things about her. When you move out of the comic book community, it's zero knowledge, and people just 'know' that she's a feminist symbol, so they must like her. Marketing without substance, which was my initial point for the "Trinity" denomination.

Okay thanks 👆

Personality wise? Batman's personality is only interesting if you're an angry teenager in the 90s, when dark is cool and being edgy is hip. His cool brooding is.....I mean, how the phuck is that meant to be inspiring lol. We're not all Galan, with a Galanboat and two Galanmobiles.

Superman? What does he inspire amongst us? To not be a d1ck, and to be good to others? That's...well, A, kinda implicit and not really needed , and B, failing amongst us lol.

@Phildo: imagine if every character we liked who was male, was defined by their relationship to a female character.

We have male Zatannas, Superwoman was the original (and her cousin Kal came later), male Amanda Wallers etc.

And then suddenly, one day, along comes a brand new character called Simon Williams. Completely unbeholden to a female main character, he isn't a boyfriend that needs to be saved, or based on a female superhero.

We'd lap it up.

Superman and Batman are such characters that you can place them in any story without batting an eye from readers. They are as much comfortable in a gritty noir or a cosmic epic.

Wonder Woman isn't such a character. Few are. The sad part is that they are changing her into a Superman clone the more they want to change how popular she is. She is a warrior fighting for peace through war and that should be reflected in her stories. Like how Captain America is.

As of now she doesn't has any role in Justice League or Trinity. She can't be the strongest one because that's Superman, she can't be fastest because that's Flash, she can't be the cosmic protector because that's Green lantern, she can't even be royalty because that's Aquaman and she can't be the brain or THE warrior because that's Batman.

She is a hodgepodge of various character traits. A true jack of all trades but master of none. That's why even Grant Morrison, the god of comics can't write a good story with Wonder Woman

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Personality wise? Batman's personality is only interesting if you're an angry teenager in the 90s, when dark is cool and being edgy is hip. His cool brooding is.....I mean, how the phuck is that meant to be inspiring lol. We're not all Galan, with a Galanboat and two Galanmobiles.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Superman? What does he inspire amongst us? To not be a d1ck, and to be good to others? That's...well, A, kinda implicit and not really needed , and B, failing amongst us lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
@Phildo: imagine if every character we liked who was male, was defined by their relationship to a female character.

We have male Zatannas, Superwoman was the original (and her cousin Kal came later), male Amanda Wallers etc.

And then suddenly, one day, along comes a brand new character called Simon Williams. Completely unbeholden to a female main character, he isn't a boyfriend that needs to be saved, or based on a female superhero.

We'd lap it up.

Well, there's plenty of female characters that aren't intrinsically defined by their partner, that are complex and inspiring who aren't seen as 'feminist icons'. It's all about marketing. I'd like Superman even if Supergirl came first. And I'd like Batman even if Batwoman came first. It's the characters, not their 'status' as no-connection-to-any-man that I like.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
@Phildo: imagine if every character we liked who was male, was defined by their relationship to a female character.

We have male Zatannas, Superwoman was the original (and her cousin Kal came later), male Amanda Wallers etc.

And then suddenly, one day, along comes a brand new character called Simon Williams. Completely unbeholden to a female main character, he isn't a boyfriend that needs to be saved, or based on a female superhero.

We'd lap it up.

This^^. Thats all im saying. There isnt any other female character like her WITHOUT male entanglement and or emo baggage. Shes her own character

Jean and Ororo don't have "emo baggage", that's an absurd exaggeration especially when compared to the stuff Diana's been dealing with.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
This^^. Thats all im saying. There isnt any other female character like her WITHOUT male entanglement and or emo baggage. Shes her own character

That's why you get Johns bloodthirsty Wonder Woman and Azzarelo's peace loving woman simultaneously.

Emotional baggage is what makes a character different from a cardboard cutout.

She is her own character in what way? There is no fixed personality trait for her. Is she loving? Compassionate? Idealistic? Pragmatic? Brutal in fight or kind?

She can be one, either or none of those simultaneously under different writers. It's just jarring.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Jean and Ororo don't have "emo baggage", that's an absurd exaggeration especially when compared to the stuff Diana's been dealing with.

Describe Jean sans PF?

Storms an ensemble character NOT a stand alone. But one thing at time here