Yahweh vs Lucifer Morningstar

Originally posted by kevdude
Ive been through this with u before GS, The Source is TOAA. The Living Tribunal is was created by TOAA to keep Gods Will going in the Universe, and to watch over it and make sure its safe. The Living Tribunal is powered by an "unknown force" which goes with saying The Source/TOAA is an unknown being by almost everyone and everything in creation. Most of the beings in DC which The Source creates and empowers is the color yellow, something along the lines the LT is and Phoenix Force is as well.

here is a few sites talking about The Source aka TOAA and its rule in the Universe.
http://www.koshertorah.com/PDF/nothing.pdf#search='The%20Source%2C%20%20Keter'
http://www.elimangel.com/keter.htm
In Hal Jordans run in The Spectre, he was asking Metron about why evil/darkness exist, Metron told him "only The Source could answer that, IF it can". The Source/TOAA is an aspect of God and Heaven much like The Presence/The Holy Spirit is. Yahweh/The Infinite are beyond The Source which is as far to Yahweh as anyone can possibly go (without going to The Silver City of course, where his Presence if felt the most in the Universe).

The ONLY thing that predates the Creator "The Presence" in the Universe is The Great Evil Beast, it is his only equal and opposite in the Universe. The Presence/Holy Spirit The Light searches all things, even the mind of God. Yahweh and The Infinite are the same being. the Universe and everything else is really just a Dream that Yahweh himself has dreamed up in a way not to be alone. the dream though is still real or as real as it can be!

Are you keeping up with me GS?? Hope you are 😛

oh and The Spectre gets his powers from The Word, The Word is really the only being that lives in the Light, the Light is within everyone alive but The Word/Jesus is the only being that has remained true to Yahweh/The Presence or any other name u want to call God. He is the only 1 that deserves to be next to God always. The LT does not really have free will, its created in a way to always work in a way that God would want. The Spectre also does not really have free will for he was recreated by The Presence to join The Word in some way and become The Words Wrath.

So all of that inconsequential waffle aside the only reason u hav for equating DC's Source to TOAA is the fact that

a)the Source sits beyond creation and TOAA is called TOAA 😕

b) The Living Tribunal is yellow 😕

Kevdude thats the poorest case ive ever seen on these forums.

That is the basis for your argument and you've padded out your post with unrelated therefore irrelevant stuff to mask that fact.

For a start by all accounts the Source is the energies of creation it is the Big Bang and during that moment was when it came into being. How then does TOAA equate to The Source when Phoenix is the Big Bang?

TOAA has never been seen in comics either on panel or by the characters themselves you therefore have no evidence whatsoever to make such claims, whereas Phoenix has the same role as the Source in Marvel it to manifests as the Big Bang, its power runs through all life in Marvel, it sustains all life in Marvel and in a crossover Darkseid made a Dark Phoenix entity by combining the dead Jean Greys residual consciousness with energies from the Source in a crossover. There you have a much better case, a case better supported on panel.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So all of that inconsequential waffle aside the only reason u hav for equating DC's Source to TOAA is the fact that

a)the Source sits beyond creation and TOAA is called TOAA 😕

b) The Living Tribunal is yellow 😕

Kevdude thats the poorest case ive ever seen on these forums.

That is the basis for your argument and you've padded out your post with unrelated therefore irrelevant stuff to mask that fact.

For a start by all accounts the Source is the energies of creation it is the Big Bang and during that moment was when it came into being. How then does TOAA equate to The Source when Phoenix is the Big Bang?

TOAA has never been seen in comics either on panel or by the characters themselves you therefore have no evidence whatsoever to make such claims, whereas Phoenix has the same role as the Source in Marvel it to manifests as the Big Bang, its power runs through all life in Marvel, it sustains all life in Marvel and in a crossover Darkseid made a Dark Phoenix entity by combining the dead Jean Greys residual consciousness with energies from the Source in a crossover. There you have a much better case, a case better supported on panel.

Hey Sprurious extrpolation is'nt just your thing GS 🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
It's so true the problem I have is GS wants people to accept his extrapolation as canon, it clearly isn't some of it has merit, some of it does not.

🙂

Not at all. How can it be canon when it isnt actually stated. The problem i have is that while the Phoenix/God relationship is clearly alluded to on panel people dont acknowledge that or have the guts to admit that in debate, whereas LT has only been stated to work for a being called TOAA and yet people so readily accept him as an agent of God while theres been no support o fsuch a thing on panel. Certainly not as much support as there has been for a Phoenix/God connection.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Hey Sprurious extrpolation is'nt just your thing GS 🙂

No but my arguments are relatively well supported. 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not at all. How can it be canon when it isnt actually stated. The problem i have is that while the Phoenix/God relationship is clearly alluded to on panel people dont acknowledge that or have the guts to admit that in debate, whereas LT has only been stated to work for a being called TOAA and yet people so readily accept him as an agent of God while theres been no support o fsuch a thing on panel. Certainly not as much support as there has been for a Phoenix/God connection.

A lot of people disagree and mock you all over this forum, you've put your ideas out there if you wish then taken seriously you should let others make up their minds. It's simple trust me no one reads your essays. 😉

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
A lot of people disagree and mock you all over this forum, you've put your ideas out there if you wish then taken seriously you should let others make up their minds. It's simple trust me no one reads your essays. 😉

The people im debating with read them and they are the reason i write them in the first place. So its all good my friend.

What people cant disagree with is that there have been allusions to a Phoenix/God relationship. You've admitted so yourself as have many people on these forums. Im not trying to present it as canon i just try and make people admit that fact. Some have the guts to do it some wont for the sake of saving face in debate. (For once that wasnt directed at yourself. 😄 )

LT has no stated connection with God therefore such a connection is not canon either.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
A lot of people disagree and mock you all over this forum, you've put your ideas out there if you wish then taken seriously you should let others make up their minds. It's simple trust me no one reads your essays. 😉

Mock me? Please Whirly. Im an adult. Like a few people taking the mick about the essay quality of my posts is gonna bother me. 😉

Doesnt stop what im saying from being true. Yes Phoenix is heavily suggested to be an aspect of God and even now has a role in Marvel befitting of one however until its actually stated on panel its not canon. Same goes for LT. 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Mock me? Please Whirly. Im an adult. Like a few people taking the mick about the essay quality of my posts is gonna bother me. 😉

Doesnt stop what im saying from being true. Yes Phoenix is heavily suggested to be an aspect of God and even now has a role in Marvel befitting of one however until its actually stated on panel its not canon. Same goes for LT. 😉

This is the point GS it's obviously not 100% true, writers interpret characters differently as do readers. You have your view it's not canon. If it was you would not have left for two weeks when the new handbook came out. Yes you have now modified you're ideas and reinterpreter the Handbook. Your interpretation is not canon it's opinion based on two weeks sitting at home crying? 😉 It's OK you're an adult, so you temporarily left a comics forum because you thought you'd been clearly proven wrong 🙂

Thats cool 🙂

Keep the faith 🙂

Stay WWWWWWhhhhhhhiiiiiirrrrrllllllyyyyyy 🤘

Merry Christmas 🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
This is the point GS it's obviously not 100% true, writers interpret characters differently as to readers. You have your view it's not true canon. If it was you would not have left for two weeks when the new handbook came out. Yes you have now modified you're ideas and reinterpreter the Handbook. Your interpretation is not canon it's opinion based on two weeks sitting at home crying 😉 It's OK you're an adult, so you temporarily left a comics forum because you thought you'd been clearly proven wrong 🙂

Thats cool 🙂

Keep the faith 🙂

Stay WWWWWWhhhhhhhiiiiiirrrrrllllllyyyyyy 🤘

Merry Christmas 🙂

Oh please. 😉

I left the comic book forums because i had much work to do and a student loan to spend. That handbooks release was the last straw and before i got dragged into another long battle over its interpretation i took it as a chance to leave. 😄

Believe what you want its cool. Doesnt change the fact that as desired another person acknowledges theres a connection alluded to however until its actually stated on panel its not canon. Thats cool. Same goes for LT. So its alllllll good. 😎

Merry Xmas to you to. 😄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Oh please. 😉

I left the comic book forums because i had much work to do and a student loan to spend. That handbooks release was the last straw and before i got dragged into another long battle over its interpretation i took it as a chance to leave. 😄

Believe what you want its cool. Doesnt change the fact that as desired another person acknowledges theres a connection alluded to however until its actually stated on panel its not canon. Thats cool. Same goes for LT. So its alllllll good. 😎

Merry Xmas to you to. 😄

I'll look for the post where you were unhappy with the handbook and said you were leaving! 😉 Anyway.......... The connection alluded to is by one writer others have not alluded to it. I'm glad you finally admit it is extrapolation we no longer have an argument then. The handbook tries to mix writers ideas, so it really hedges its bets a little.

Merry Christmas 🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I'll look for the post where you were unhappy with the handbook and said you were leaving! 😉 Anyway.......... The connection alluded to is by one writer others have not alluded to it. I'm glad you finally admit it is extrapolation we no longer have an argument then. The handbook tries to mix writers ideas.

Merry Christmas 🙂

Please do my friend. It doesnt contradict with my last post so no worries. As aforementioned the Handbook was the last straw so i left to do some work saying id be back in a few weeks. And here i am. 😄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Either way that is it. I am so disillusioned with Marvel right now. I thought New X-men was the best X-men series in years and now most of its developments are being ignored. I am outta here for a lil while. Later peeps!!! 😠 😛

The connection was alluded to by Chris Claremont the creator of Phoenix, the original interpretation was rife with references. The 86 retcon interpretation focused more on the connection with life and then in the most recent interpretations by Morrison and Pak a god connection was alluded to again. Yeah until its stated on panel its not canon but same goes for LT and that aint held him back none. 😄

Ooooo youre in a festive mood.

Again Merry Xmas

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Please do my friend. It doesnt contradict with my last post so no worries. As aforementioned the Handbook was the last straw so i left to do some work saying id be back in a few weeks. And here i am. 😄

The connection was alluded to by Chris Claremont the creator of Phoenix, the original interpretation was rife with references. The 86 retcon interpretation focused more on the connection with life and then in the most recent interpretations by Morrison and Pak a god connection was alluded to again. Yeah until its stated on panel its not canon but same goes for LT and that aint held him back none. 😄

Ooooo youre in a festive mood.

Again Merry Xmas

I'm glad you admit it's extrapolation of some writing at last.

Merry Christmas 🙂 yes I will be very drunk tmz night.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I'm glad you admit it's extrapolation of some writing at last.

Merry Christmas 🙂 yes I will be very drunk tmz night.

Yeah and im glad you acknowledge that the LT/God connection is also extrapolation. Cool.

I'll be getting wasted 2morrow as well. Cant wait!!! 😱

🤨 Nope, Phoenix Force is a manifestationed entity of The Source in creation that embodies emotion other than intellect in creation trying to save lives or destroy them, so there for its a abstract of The Source used to show its passion to creation. If it was the Source in Jean it wouldn't need to run back to The Source Wall and join The Source again every time its powers are almost gone understand? Some could even say it shouldn't be allowed in creation for its destroying potential life in the future.

Also so are u saying GS that Yahweh would rather talk to the LT and show LT his real form other than talking and showing his real form to umm his 3 more favor sons, The Word, Lucifer and Michael??? Nope Yahweh/The Infinite has never been seen or been heard by anyone which includes the Living Tribunal! He works in ways so nobody would ever really see him. You yourself said nobody has really ever seen or talk to Yahweh so u would have to agree, if u dont then ur ignoring the truth. 🙄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Where and how has TOAA been shown to be fallible? I dont recall this and i find it hard to believe considering its never appeared in comics and never even been seen by its agent The Living Tribunal.

With such things in mind as far as we know TOAA is the Unmanifest God and therefore would equate to Yahweh.

Marvels Crown would equate to The Presence. By the real life principles theyre based on they are actually the same thing anyway.

Didn't you just have a rant contradicting this entire post? Something along the lines of "Two beings that are based on the same thing are not necessarily equal." Though this is EXACTLY what you base 90% of your Phoenix arguments off of. She didn't create the MU, Reed Richard's will to learn did, with some help from the Cosmic Bunny Thing (CBT for short). LT bowing to Jean was a guess by the Watcher, not actual reality.

The Presence has too been challenged... Great Evil Beast is its equal and opposite. The Source is not actually "God" either. Yahweh is God in his entirety within DC. He has complete control over all of the original Creation, which Lucifer bypassed by making a second Creation... God wasn't defeated, God's system had a loophole.

TOAA has never been seen. (Supreme TOAA, not TOAA the Celestial) All we know is that he's LT's boss, and since nothing short of the HOTU has been shown as more powerful than LT, it's kind of assumed taht TOAA is the most powerful being in Marvel.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Didn't you just have a rant contradicting this entire post? Something along the lines of "Two beings that are based on the same thing are not necessarily equal." Though this is EXACTLY what you base 90% of your Phoenix arguments off of. She didn't create the MU, Reed Richard's will to learn did, with some help from the Cosmic Bunny Thing (CBT for short). LT bowing to Jean was a guess by the Watcher, not actual reality.

The Presence has too been challenged... Great Evil Beast is its equal and opposite. The Source is not actually "God" either. Yahweh is God in his entirety within DC. He has complete control over all of the original Creation, which Lucifer bypassed by making a second Creation... God wasn't defeated, God's system had a loophole.

TOAA has never been seen. (Supreme TOAA, not TOAA the Celestial) All we know is that he's LT's boss, and since nothing short of the HOTU has been shown as more powerful than LT, it's kind of assumed taht TOAA is the most powerful being in Marvel.

🙂

<<Didn't you just have a rant contradicting this entire post? Something along the lines of "Two beings that are based on the same thing are not necessarily equal." Though this is EXACTLY what you base 90% of your Phoenix arguments off of. She didn't create the MU, Reed Richard's will to learn did, with some help from the Cosmic Bunny Thing (CBT for short). LT bowing to Jean was a guess by the Watcher, not actual reality.>>

it's always interesting reading someone else's interpretation of events . . . 😉

See.......... the x-mas spirit defeats all hatred.......... even GS and Whirly !!!

ya, they're cute, aren't they? 😄

Originally posted by leonidas
ya, they're cute, aren't they? 😄

You've seen my pic right 😕 😂 Merry Christmas guys 🙂 Good bless us all 🙂