Originally posted by kevdude
🤨 Nope, Phoenix Force is a manifestationed entity of The Source in creation that embodies emotion other than intellect in creation trying to save lives or destroy them, so there for its a abstract of The Source used to show its passion to creation. If it was the Source in Jean it wouldn't need to run back to The Source Wall and join The Source again every time its powers are almost gone understand? Some could even say it shouldn't be allowed in creation for its destroying potential life in the future.
How is Phoenix a manifestation of the Source when the Source is a DC character Kev? Youre confusing yourself dear. Phoenix is no abstract that much was stated on panel. If you wish to debate the nature of Phoenix then come on over to the Marvel hierarchy thread but read before you post to avoid more ill informed posts like this.
No my friend it seems its you who doesnt understand. The time this crossover was written (1982) Jean was literally Phoenix there was no seperate firebird entity (that retcon didnt arrive until 4 years later) that was just her energy signature. As stated it was just Jean in union with the primal force of creation in Marvel.
In this crossover Darkseid collected psychic residue of the dead Jean Greys consciousness and combined it with the energies of the Source to create a Dark Phoenix.
I really hope no further explanation is necessary.
Originally posted by kevdude
Also so are u saying GS that Yahweh would rather talk to the LT and show LT his real form other than talking and showing his real form to umm his 3 more favor sons, The Word, Lucifer and Michael??? Nope Yahweh/The Infinite has never been seen or been heard by anyone which includes the Living Tribunal! He works in ways so nobody would ever really see him. You yourself said nobody has really ever seen or talk to Yahweh so u would have to agree, if u dont then ur ignoring the truth. 🙄
Kev i didnt really want to comment before but you seem to have in your head the wild notion that the DC gods are present in Marvel creation, that they directly have something to do with it. They DONT.
Marvel has its only cosmic beings and supreme being and DC has theirs which itself suggests as aforementioned that TOAA and Yahweh are merely aspects of one omniversal supreme being who appears differently to the different creations. However Yahweh has nothing whatsoever to do with Marvel and nor do his other aspects. Stop saying stuff like TOAA is the Source or that Phoenix is derived from the Source and stop this wild talk of LT seeing Yahweh i never once said such a thing because i have the common sense to distinguish between the two comic book creations. Theyre merged in your head, they shouldnt be, seperate them it leads to very confused posts.
Originally posted by Dizzle
Didn't you just have a rant contradicting this entire post? Something along the lines of "Two beings that are based on the same thing are not necessarily equal." Though this is EXACTLY what you base 90% of your Phoenix arguments off of. She didn't create the MU, Reed Richard's will to learn did, with some help from the Cosmic Bunny Thing (CBT for short). LT bowing to Jean was a guess by the Watcher, not actual reality.
I honestly dont know what youre talking about. Quote me.
Phoenix did create the Marvel universe by all accounts she is the Big Bang, the energies of creation from which the universe derived from. In F4 we found what triggered the Big Bang, what caused this manifestation. This issue has been talked about many times previously on these forums you obviously missed that thread. Reed and the Bunny did nothing as individuals if you re-read the comic you'll see it stated that it was all as extensions of Eternity. Eternitys questions on his own existence triggered the Big Bang, Reed and the Bunny travelled back in time and as extensions of Eternity triggered it off in the exact same way. Either way its stated in the comic and this discussion has been had. Use the search function.
As for the X-men Forever comment i'll put that down to misinterpretation or poor recollection. It was not a guess from a Watcher where you got that crazy idea from i really dont know. The Watchers had not a thing to do with the story.
In X-men forever the Stranger found out that humanity would one day evolve to the point where they would become one with creation and surpass the abstracts and LT.
This was a process co-ordinated by the Phoenix Force and when humanity reached this point on the evolutionary scale Phoenix would collapse reality before starting a new creation. The Stranger feared this event and sought to access the Phoenix Force via Jean in order to bring about this process on his own terms and through the power he would survive the process and emerge in the new creation, unchallenged as the supreme being of reality.
Eternity then contacted Jean and told her that while the beginning and end of creation and the replacement of the abstracts was a natural process controlled by Phoenix the Strangers plans to speed up the process and then twist it to his advantage was unacceptable so he asked Jean not to allow Strangers plans to come into fruition.
While that scene didnt actually happen there and then, the replacement of the abstracts and LT happens anyway via the Phoenix Force as stated on panel. Your point is void.
Originally posted by Dizzle
The Presence has too been challenged... Great Evil Beast is its equal and opposite. The Source is not actually "God" either. Yahweh is God in his entirety within DC. He has complete control over all of the original Creation, which Lucifer bypassed by making a second Creation... God wasn't defeated, God's system had a loophole.
Why are you telling me this none of this relates directly to anything ive said or to this thread. I read Lucifer so and regularly at that so i dont require a recap.
Originally posted by Dizzle
TOAA has never been seen. (Supreme TOAA, not TOAA the Celestial) All we know is that he's LT's boss, and since nothing short of the HOTU has been shown as more powerful than LT, it's kind of assumed taht TOAA is the most powerful being in Marvel.
Ive said this in this very thread. Why are you telling me this? 😕
<<Kev i didnt really want to comment before but you seem to have in your head the wild notion that the DC gods are present in Marvel creation, that they directly have something to do with it. They DONT.>>
i think he's trying to say that yahweh is so great in dc that he is/showuld be seen as the being who created the entire universe of comics in general. as the 2 universes HAVE been shown to be related, i think he's speculating (for some reason based on real-life religon) that yahweh has created both universes and that the forces are directly co-related because of that.
a point i disagree with, btw . . .
Thats sorta true leonidas, I do believe Yahweh in DC has created everything in Marvel as well! He God ever known in comics and in the real world. I don't really base it on real life Christianity even though DC has created it to be like that. DC and Marvel have both created crossovers together and The Spectre and The Living Tribunal talk as though they serve the same God, that is enough info to put 2 and 2 together that Yahweh/The Infinite is the God of both DC and Marvel. Marvel just relates to religion differently then DC does.
Also u can't really say TOAA and The Source aren't the same being GS until Marvel comes out and says it. Everything i've read shows TOAA and The Source to be the same being (whether u admit it or not u know its true).
After reading more Spectre and info online and more Lucifer comics now believe The Presence and Yahweh are the same being. The Presence (Yahweh) created everything in creation, The Source is Gods Will. In COIE if the Anti-Monitor was threating Heaven, The Presence would have stepped in fully and took care of it himself or sent an army of angels with Michael to kill him which didn't happen. the only major time the Creator (YHWH"The Presence"😉 showed himself after the Universe was created was when it was threaded by The Great Evil Beast (both who are totally Omnipotent). nobody could even see God for he was so bright.
It is shown in Sandman #23 (2.91) that The Presence and his angels create The Silver City proving Yahweh and The Presence are the same being, he is the most holy. He also was the 1 that said "let ther be light" as Juntia said.
there is many aspects of Heaven but The Silver City is the first and only true 1 that the Creator mainly cares for.
Originally posted by kevdude
Thats sorta true leonidas, I do believe Yahweh in DC has created everything in Marvel as well! He God ever known in comics and in the real world. I don't really base it on real life Christianity even though DC has created it to be like that. DC and Marvel have both created crossovers together and The Spectre and The Living Tribunal talk as though they serve the same God, that is enough info to put 2 and 2 together that Yahweh/The Infinite is the God of both DC and Marvel. Marvel just relates to religion differently then DC does.
Where have LT and Spectre talked as if they served the same God? Show me scans, quote issues whatever you have to do to convince me and whoever else is reading that these notions are nothing but your opinion on how things should be.
DC and Marvel have had crossovers the only one that is canon though is the JLA/Avengers one. All you can read From that is that they exist in the same omniverse which was obvious anyway. You cant say Yahweh created created Marvel because thats utter rubbish Kev. You have no basis for saying that whatsoever so dont. Marvel has beings on panel stated to be responsible for its multiversal creation/affairs (i.e Phoenix,LT, TOAA) just like DC (Yahweh and his aspects, Lucifer and Michael). With that in mind what is inferred by the fact that there is a canon crossover is that as aforementioned the likes of TOAA and Yahweh are themselves aspects of an omniversal being. That makes sense and caters for the fact that each company has beings occupying the roles your opinions are allocating to your DC faves. However that in itself is not canon as it hasnt been stated anywhere so i am not stating that in debate as fact like how youre presenting youre unsupported opinion.
Your idea is basically Yahweh is so powerful so i think he created Marvel as well. 😕
Originally posted by kevdude
Also u can't really say TOAA and The Source aren't the same being GS until Marvel comes out and says it. Everything i've read shows TOAA and The Source to be the same being (whether u admit it or not u know its true).
Kev youve been here long enough to know it doesnt work like that. Youre the one making claims. Its your job to back them up.
By your logic i can say Jubilee is the tru epower behind House of M and Infinite Crisis and noone can say thats not the case till Marvel and DC say she wasnt. Puh-lease Kev 🙄
Kev i really used to think you knew your stuff. Youve conclusively proved me very wrong. 🙁
Originally posted by kevdude
After reading more Spectre and info online and more Lucifer comics now believe The Presence and Yahweh are the same being. The Presence (Yahweh) created everything in creation, The Source is Gods Will. In COIE if the Anti-Monitor was threating Heaven, The Presence would have stepped in fully and took care of it himself or sent an army of angels with Michael to kill him which didn't happen. the only major time the Creator (YHWH"The Presence"😉 showed himself after the Universe was created was when it was threaded by The Great Evil Beast (both who are totally Omnipotent). nobody could even see God for he was so bright.
None of this is relevant to the thread or even the little tangent me, you and Juntai went on. It just seems like youre trying to impress people with your opinions on the DC hierarchy. 😕
Yahweh and Presence being the same being is obvious noones debating that. In fact a few of us did a big thing about it in a hierarchy thread a few months ago. Presence is an aspect of Yahweh.
Originally posted by kevdude
It is shown in Sandman #23 (2.91) that The Presence and his angels create The Silver City proving Yahweh and The Presence are the same being, he is the most holy. He also was the 1 that said "let ther be light" as Juntia said.there is many aspects of Heaven but The Silver City is the first and only true 1 that the Creator mainly cares for.
What relevance does this have? Yahweh is a DC character and has nothing to do with Marvel whatsoever. Understand that. Youre stating your opinion on how you think things are or should be and what makes things worse is that it is completely unsupported by either comic book company. With that in mind the fact that youre throwing together a theory and making your DC characters all powerful and responsible for all things Marvel as well just makes you seem like a fanboy. Youre better than this Kev. Come on now. 🙁
Originally posted by leonidas
gs sayeth:<<. . . convince me and whoever else is reading that these notions are nothing but your opinion on how things should be.>>
somewhere sir whirly is laughing himself drunk at the irony. . .
The difference being that my opinion was thoroughly supported. Please acknowledge that. 😉
You know im not a fanboy of DC (or Marvel) ❌ just discussing how they might be related thats all. I remember a time when nobody knew The Presence was Yahwehs greatest aspect(holy spirit/the crown/the light) until i told everyone. Even 1 such as urself GS doesn't know everything about comics 😉 so don't act like u know everything.
anyway I've heard on these forums and others that Marvel has already shown who the TOAA is, they say he is a very powerful Wizard who is trillions of years old who created the MU. Have you yourself heard anything like this and is this true??? I'm guessing its not true but 'if' it is why don't anyone remember??? 😑
Originally posted by kevdude
You know im not a fanboy of DC (or Marvel) ❌ just discussing how they might be related thats all. I remember a time when nobody knew The Presence was Yahwehs greatest aspect(holy spirit/the crown/the light) until i told everyone. Even 1 such as urself GS doesn't know everything about comics 😉 so don't act like u know everything.
I dont claim or act like i know everything. I only debate in threads whose subject i have a decent amount of knowledge on. This just happens to be one of them.
Originally posted by kevdude
anyway I've heard on these forums and others that Marvel has already shown who the TOAA is, they say he is a very powerful Wizard who is trillions of years old who created the MU. Have you yourself heard anything like this and is this true??? I'm guessing its not true but 'if' it is why don't anyone remember??? 😑
Never heard anything like that before. I wouldnt pay such hearsay any mind until you see some on panel references.
