Yahweh vs Lucifer Morningstar

Originally posted by Juntai
No, you're NOT reading it. It clearly says and I'm QUOTING "Crisis on Infinite Earths: Spectre stops the Anti Monitor from destroying all creation, and reignites the universe." It doesn't say REFORMED, it says REIGNITES. HE -REWROTE- The Presence's creation from it's very beginning. And certainly the guy who built the physical DCU in Current Continuity, certainly started the Big Bang. To think otherwise is kinda dumb.

Kronas experiment shattered the universe, put an end to it making a multiverse. Spectre pulled it back together forming the universe again. Putting it back on track. So yes he did reignite the universe. He started it up again. Can you show me anywhere on panel which states that Spectre generated the Big Bang? I didnt think so.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But your arguments based on the fact that Spectre created the DC universe which is incorrect. He saved it. You have proved not a thing.

Can i ask what on panel feats the Presence has pulled off or does he not work through the Spectre?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Kronas experiment shattered the universe, put an end to it making a multiverse. Spectre pulled it back together forming the universe again. Putting it back on track. So yes he did reignite the universe. He started it up again. Can you show me anywhere on panel which states that Spectre generated the Big Bang? I didnt think so.

Btw; the Big Bang is the igniting, the creation of the universe.
It clearly states Spectre as the being that did this in current contiuity on DC's page, as quoted.
I'm not sure what you consider the Big Bang to be.

I must really go now bro
peace.

Originally posted by Juntai
The Presence is, period, but for a specific feat, he created Heaven Hell and all abstract realms. In Paradise Lost, it intervened personally and made the Heaven side of the battle impervious to any damage the Hellions and Azmodels faction of renegade angels. At also judged and punished Satan according to Hal's run as Spectre and forces it to do tasks it doesn't want to. [Satan is not to be confused with Lucifer. Lucifer is a being, while Satan is an abstract.] And Neron also pointed to out to knowing personally what going against the Presence does. But Spectre in current continuity is the creator of the DCUniverse, albeit as an aspect of The Presence.

Ummm and the Phoenix Force has created Marvel creation and represents the Crown so youre quite incorrect im afraid.

In current continuity Spectre is reponsible for the universe in its current form. Krona messed it up and Spectre put it back together again. He got it on the track the Presence had determined. That fits in perfectly. Youre getting caught up on the wording and you arent supported on panel in the slightest.

Originally posted by Juntai
He did it effortlessly in Zero Hour, it's certainly not beyond his grasp. That's the main point anyways. That The Crown has no feat above Spectre, let alone being on par with the highest multiversal manifestation there is.. which is a spot reserved in my mind for The One Above All.

Btw; the Big Bang is the igniting, the creation of the universe.
It clearly states Spectre as the being that did this in current contiuity on DC's page, as quoted.
I'm not sure what you consider the Big Bang to be.

The Crown through the Phoenix Force (which represents it) has done all of this so basically this is just a pointless my aspects better than yours argument as i stated before.

The Big Bang is the igniting of creation, the starting off of creation youre correct. However Presence has started off the universe, Krona shatters reality and Spectre puts it back together that fits in perfectly with the wording and is supported on panel.

Saying Krona shattered reality and then Spectre generated another seperate Big Bang is sheer speculation, wild speculation at that. Spectre just got creation started again. Thats all.

What do you mean I'm not supported on panel?
Read Infinite Crisis again, my friend.
In pages 295-297 of the TPB

The Spectre;

"He sees worlds that have never existed and never will! He sees shapes and colors and patterns and concepts never dreamt of even by his master! And the Spectre screams again. And the universe explodes around him. And from The Dawn of Creation itself comes death. It is the end of all that was."

Then in the next page was a filler picture, then the next, it shows Spectre's powers coursing through a blackness of nothing.

"In the begining there were many. A multiversal infinitude. .. so cold and dark for so very long... that even the burning light was imperceptible..[as it had not been created yet!] .. but then the light grew and the darkness screamed as much in pain as in relief. For in that instant, a universe was born."

Now we look to the dictionary.
www.dictionary.com
big bang
n.
The cosmic explosion that marked the origin of the universe according to the big bang theory.

To me, that obviously described Spectre destroying then remaking creation, on panel.
It is also supported word for word on his Secret File on dccomics.com.

"Crisis on Infinite Earths: Spectre stops the Anti Monitor from destroying all creation, and reignites the universe."

The Presence itself was the original creator of the universe, the Spectre undid his work, and redid it himself.

Then as pointed out, Spectre did it yet again in Zero Hour, proving creation is not beyond his grasp.

And by understanding of all the Pheonix stuff I've read through the millions of threads that popped up on here. Pheonix Force didn't create Marvel creation, it IS Marvel's creation itself. And The Crown created it. Pheonix is a byproduct.
Check the current handbook for example which supports this wholly.:
HISTORY:
Born of the void between states of being, the Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.”

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
See this is why you should pay attention when i write my essays Leo ive gone over this many times before in the past. Something i dont intend to do again anytime soon lol.

Right now all i can suggest is that you google "Sephiroth" "Keter" (The Crown/Phoenix consciousness) and "Tiphereth" (Phoenix in creation) and you will find all the answers you need.

😆

the funny thing is you expect me or anyone else o follow all your essays on all the various threads on which you post them. i understand exactly what the terms themselves mean and i wrote my own essay once explaining why it doesn't necessarily follow that all those parallels can be drawn. ❌

but you're right in not wanting to rehash. that's best for everyone! 😉

Originally posted by Juntai
What do you mean I'm not supported on panel?
Read Infinite Crisis again, my friend.
In pages 295-297 of the TPB

The Spectre;

"He sees worlds that have never existed and never will! He sees shapes and colors and patterns and concepts never dreamt of even by his master! And the Spectre screams again. And the universe explodes around him. And from The Dawn of Creation itself comes death. It is the end of all that was."

Then in the next page was a filler picture, then the next, it shows Spectre's powers coursing through a blackness of nothing.

"In the begining there were many. A multiversal infinitude. .. so cold and dark for so very long... that even the burning light was imperceptible..[as it had not been created yet!] .. but then the light grew and the darkness screamed as much in pain as in relief. For in that instant, a universe was born."

Now we look to the dictionary.
www.dictionary.com
big bang
n.
The cosmic explosion that marked the origin of the universe according to the big bang theory.

To me, that obviously described Spectre destroying then remaking creation, on panel.
It is also supported word for word on his Secret File on dccomics.com.

"Crisis on Infinite Earths: Spectre stops the Anti Monitor from destroying all creation, and reignites the universe."

The Presence itself was the original creator of the universe, the Spectre undid his work, and redid it himself.

Then as pointed out, Spectre did it yet again in Zero Hour, proving creation is not beyond his grasp.

And by understanding of all the Pheonix stuff I've read through the millions of threads that popped up on here. Pheonix Force didn't create Marvel creation, it IS Marvel's creation itself. And The Crown created it. Pheonix is a byproduct.
Check the current handbook for example which supports this wholly.:
HISTORY:
Born of the void between states of being, the Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.”

😆

yeah, that will go over well, jun . . . i like your impression of the pf though -- it reminds of of someone else's interpretation . . . 😄

Originally posted by Juntai
What do you mean I'm not supported on panel?
Read Infinite Crisis again, my friend.
In pages 295-297 of the TPB

The Spectre;

"He sees worlds that have never existed and never will! He sees shapes and colors and patterns and concepts never dreamt of even by his master! And the Spectre screams again. And the universe explodes around him. And from The Dawn of Creation itself comes death. It is the end of all that was."

Then in the next page was a filler picture, then the next, it shows Spectre's powers coursing through a blackness of nothing.

"In the begining there were many. A multiversal infinitude. .. so cold and dark for so very long... that even the burning light was imperceptible..[as it had not been created yet!] .. but then the light grew and the darkness screamed as much in pain as in relief. For in that instant, a universe was born."

Now we look to the dictionary.
www.dictionary.com
big bang
n.
The cosmic explosion that marked the origin of the universe according to the big bang theory.

To me, that obviously described Spectre destroying then remaking creation, on panel.
It is also supported word for word on his Secret File on dccomics.com.

"Crisis on Infinite Earths: Spectre stops the Anti Monitor from destroying all creation, and reignites the universe."

The Presence itself was the original creator of the universe, the Spectre undid his work, and redid it himself.

Ok so which part of that stops this being a pointless aspect competition? All Spectres power is derived from the Presence (he is after all its wrath embodied) so lets say we were to accept the above how do you figure that translates as The Crown cant equal the Presence because Spectre can set off a Big Bang as well? 😕

That doesnt make any sense if all aspects are equal but just have differing roles to play in creation.

Through Phoenix the Crown makes creation just like in DC The Source/Big Bang represents the will of Presence and therefore Yahweh.

Originally posted by Juntai
And by understanding of all the Pheonix stuff I've read through the millions of threads that popped up on here. Pheonix Force didn't create Marvel creation, it IS Marvel's creation itself. And The Crown created it. Pheonix is a byproduct.
Check the current handbook for example which supports this wholly.:
HISTORY:
Born of the void between states of being, the Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.”

The Force represents the Crown in creation. It manifests as the Big Bang from which all life in a universe is derived and sustained by.The Phoenix Force is no byproduct as stated on panel it is the very energies of creation the sum and substance of all that lives. In its natural state this universal manifestation is just an energy source that both powers and touches all creation. Through Phoenix the creation cycle is maintained and at the end of the cycle everything is absorbed back into the Crown before Phoenix and thus the universe are reborn as the Big Bang.

Read the thread where this is discussed and read the appropriate comics if you wish to know more:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=380088&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by leonidas

the funny thing is you expect me or anyone else o follow all your essays on all the various threads on which you post them. i understand exactly what the terms themselves mean and i wrote my own essay once explaining why it doesn't necessarily follow that all those parallels can be drawn. ❌

I dont expect anyone to read every single essay i write on the subject especially if they are not involved in that specific debate. However i do expect people to acknowledge that i have talked about such subjects in depth before and that if they wish to know my thoughts on such a vast subject again then the forum has a handy thread search function they'll need to make use of.

If you understand what the terms means then its puzzling why you asked the questions you did. References are made, parallels are drawn and a connection is heavily suggested if not actually stated.

and i already explained that you need to be careful drawing those parallels because they are drawn INCOMPLETE from the sources you are deriving them from. the author did a lot of picking and choosing, electing to use some terms and not others so to view it holistically in kabbalah terms is not a good idea. they do NOT equate because there is too much missing, and other sources have ALSO been pillaged. i've gone through this before as well.

in our previous discussion you'd steered away from the kabbalah angle and stuck to just the white hot room being a place where the pf's 'consciousness' resides. that's fine. there is no need to extrapolate further based on what is a very incomplete model that marvel has presented in this regard.

Originally posted by leonidas
and i already explained that you need to be careful drawing those parallels because they are drawn INCOMPLETE from the sources you are deriving them from. the author did a lot of picking and choosing, electing to use some terms and not others so to view it holistically in kabbalah terms is not a good idea. they do NOT equate because there is too much missing, and other sources have ALSO been pillaged. i've gone through this before as well.

in our previous discussion you'd steered away from the kabbalah angle and stuck to just the white hot room being a place where the pf's 'consciousness' resides. that's fine. there is no need to extrapolate further based on what is a very incomplete model that marvel has presented in this regard.

Excellent posts Leo.

Originally posted by leonidas
and i already explained that you need to be careful drawing those parallels because they are drawn INCOMPLETE from the sources you are deriving them from. the author did a lot of picking and choosing, electing to use some terms and not others so to view it holistically in kabbalah terms is not a good idea. they do NOT equate because there is too much missing, and other sources have ALSO been pillaged. i've gone through this before as well.

in our previous discussion you'd steered away from the kabbalah angle and stuck to just the white hot room being a place where the pf's 'consciousness' resides. that's fine. there is no need to extrapolate further based on what is a very incomplete model that marvel has presented in this regard.

I hear what youre saying. But Marvel have all but outright declared what Phoenix is. Yes the execution is somewhat of an incomplete model but that does not equate to a non existent connection. A connection has been forged, the Crown the key to all of it has been positioned as a central feature to Marvel creation and Phoenixes relationship to it has been made clear. On top of that Phoenixes role in Marvel has been made integral and the effects of its work and its relationships to the other cosmic powers have been documented.

To admit that a connection has been forged despite the botch job done on it is all thats required.

I dont understand why LT is so readily connected to God when all thats been said is that he works for a being called TOAA. Wheres the calls to end the extrapolation prevalent in his threads?

At least Phoenix is referred to as an aspect of God(Tiphereth) and has a role that befits such a reference. At least Phoenix derives from a power whose name by real life principles is an aspect of God. (The Crown)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I hear what youre saying. But Marvel have all but outright declared what Phoenix is. Yes the execution is somewhat of an incomplete model but that does not equate to a non existent connection. A connection has been forged, the Crown the key to all of it has been positioned as a central feature to Marvel creation and Phoenixes relationship to it has been made clear. On top of that Phoenixes role in Marvel has been made integral and the effects of its work and its relationships to the other cosmic powers have been documented.

To admit that a connection has been forged despite the botch job done on it is all thats required.

I dont understand why LT is so readily connected to God when all thats been said is that he works for a being called TOAA. Wheres the calls to end the extrapolation prevalent in his threads?

At least Phoenix is referred to as an aspect of God(Tiphereth) and has a role that befits such a reference. At least Phoenix derives from a power whose name by real life principles is an aspect of God. (The Crown)

cool. i don't really want to get into a lengthy debate on the merits of kabbalah. 😄 i admitted earlier there is (based on your scans) clearly in the minds of certain writers, allusions to kabbalistic entities, but you just gotta watch that the extrapolation isn't inconclusive as marvel's model of it is FAR from complete.

and you raise a good point as regards lt. i've actually wondered why so many associate him with god, as well. for my part, i guess i've always believed that there would likely come a time when a being was shown to be ABOVE toaa. maybe that's where you're headed?

Originally posted by leonidas
cool. i don't really want to get into a lengthy debate on the merits of kabbalah. 😄 i admitted earlier there is (based on your scans) clearly in the minds of certain writers, allusions to kabbalistic entities, but you just gotta watch that the extrapolation isn't inconclusive as marvel's model of it is FAR from complete.

and you raise a good point as regards lt. i've actually wondered why so many associate him with god, as well. for my part, i guess i've always believed that there would likely come a time when a being was shown to be ABOVE toaa. maybe that's where you're headed?

It's so true the problem I have is GS wants people to accept his extrapolation as canon, it clearly isn't some of it has merit, some of it does not.

🙂

Ive been through this with u before GS, The Source is TOAA. The Living Tribunal is was created by TOAA to keep Gods Will going in the Universe, and to watch over it and make sure its safe. The Living Tribunal is powered by an "unknown force" which goes with saying The Source/TOAA is an unknown being by almost everyone and everything in creation. Most of the beings in DC which The Source creates and empowers is the color yellow, something along the lines the LT is and Phoenix Force is as well.

here is a few sites talking about The Source aka TOAA and its rule in the Universe.
http://www.koshertorah.com/PDF/nothing.pdf#search='The%20Source%2C%20%20Keter'
http://www.elimangel.com/keter.htm
In Hal Jordans run in The Spectre, he was asking Metron about why evil/darkness exist, Metron told him "only The Source could answer that, IF it can". The Source/TOAA is an aspect of God and Heaven much like The Presence/The Holy Spirit is. Yahweh/The Infinite are beyond The Source which is as far to Yahweh as anyone can possibly go (without going to The Silver City of course, where his Presence if felt the most in the Universe).

The ONLY thing that predates the Creator "The Presence" in the Universe is The Great Evil Beast, it is his only equal and opposite in the Universe. The Presence/Holy Spirit The Light searches all things, even the mind of God. Yahweh and The Infinite are the same being. the Universe and everything else is really just a Dream that Yahweh himself has dreamed up in a way not to be alone. the dream though is still real or as real as it can be!

Are you keeping up with me GS?? Hope you are 😛

oh and The Spectre gets his powers from The Word, The Word is really the only being that lives in the Light, the Light is within everyone alive but The Word/Jesus is the only being that has remained true to Yahweh/The Presence or any other name u want to call God. He is the only 1 that deserves to be next to God always. The LT does not really have free will, its created in a way to always work in a way that God would want. The Spectre also does not really have free will for he was recreated by The Presence to join The Word in some way and become The Words Wrath.

😂

I do admit those aren't comic sites but they are religious and do show how everything is set up, which DC has modeled there comics after. Gotta fill in the blanks ourselves.

there is only 3 places u can talk to Yahwehs abstracts, 1 in The Silver City in the Tower of the Unendingly High where The Presence is at, 2 in another Tower in the Silver City which The Voice and The Word can be found, and 3 ontop of Creation just rit outside of it if u risk try passing the Source Wall and getting stuck on it and talk to The Source/TOAA.

Again.......... please, religions are divine matters concerning your private self and God divine-self.

Don't mix them with comical logics.......... !!

Read the new Lucifer?
Yahweh handed over creation and left.