yoda vs. revan

No, the Miraluka did NOT become nearly extinct. Katarr was one single colony world and they were exterminated by Palpatine's genocide when he took over.

He did try to blast away Yoda-only the strongest Jedi master ever and his equal- with lightning. Who says he didn't fake a loss to Mace? Or that Mace didn't get him with a saber because Mace is the best duelist ever? Sidious had a spare saber, the saber duel was no more over than it was when Maul had Obi-wan on the ropes.

You make the Jedi sound like a bunch of ants with glowy sticks...they FAR outnumbered Palpatine and such an action would have gotten the Republic to turn on him, the entirety of the Jedi to attack him...no matter how powerful the giant, thousands of men on him will destroy him. Tell me what Sidious had in DE that made him stronger because you have no proof that there was anything. All he had was Vodo's holocron that didn't work for him-he told as much to Leia before she took it. He never had a THING of the Ancients in Dark Empire. And why did he fear Luke if he was so strong? Why did he fear the Jedi?

Well, I'd fear thousands of strong guys who want me dead if they ever found out about me and I certainly couldn't kill an army of them at once....and as for Luke...would I fear the last known Skywalker who's family is prophesized to destroy my reign? I sure would

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Fine, Revan aside. How do you respond to the Ancients calling him the strongest who'd ever lived? KJA, who CREATED the Ancients putting them below Sidious?

Sadow never destroyed a star on his own. He needed the released energies of the other dead Sith Lords and Sith artifacts to do it....

And what's wrong with his ROTS abilities? Do you expect him to be shooting around lightning and vaporizing buildings as he christens anakin a Sith?

Responding to the quoted points...

They called him (Sidious) the greatest as I recall, because he came the closest to success out of all the Sith. That doesn't make him more powerful.

True, nobody destroyed a star on their own. Wrong that you say he used anyone's spirit. He used the Sith weapon he designed which was able to focus and channel the force to rip the core from a star.

His ROTS abilities are nothing special, especially when you take into context any Sith lord before and including Exar Kun. To be honest, there's not been a Sith of their level of power until Sidious improved himself in DE, partially due to one of Naga Sadow's amulets.

He did try to blast away Yoda-only the strongest Jedi master ever and his equal- with lightning. Who says he didn't fake a loss to Mace? Or that Mace didn't get him with a saber because Mace is the best duelist ever? Sidious had a spare saber, the saber duel was no more over than it was when Maul had Obi-wan on the ropes.

Yoda is far from the strongest Jedi master ever. I'd put Vodo Baas and others of his time above him. I do think Sidious faked his loss against Windu, however.

You make the Jedi sound like a bunch of ants with glowy sticks...they FAR outnumbered Palpatine and such an action would have gotten the Republic to turn on him, the entirety of the Jedi to attack him...no matter how powerful the giant, thousands of men on him will destroy him. Tell me what Sidious had in DE that made him stronger because you have no proof that there was anything. All he had was Vodo's holocron that didn't work for him-he told as much to Leia before she took it. He never had a THING of the Ancients in Dark Empire.

For the most part, compared to Sith of any power, solitary Jedi are a "bunch of ants with glowy sticks." Sidious had a kaiburr crystal and an amulet of Naga Sadow's in DE, which increased his force powers greatly. Claiming he never had a thing of the Ancient's is ludicrous.

1. No, he was called most POWERFUL as well.

2. He had the MAssassi kill the other Lords for a damn good reason there...

3. Give me a break, we're comparing a movie fight to what others have done in the books? Kun froze a thousand senators....Sidious cloaked himself from the Jedi for ages...and yeah, Yoda's the strongest Jedi master, this is all but stated. What's Vodo ever done to put him above? I could list a lotta Yoda accomplishments

4. You know something, STOP THIS ARTIFACT CRAP! Sadow's gauntlets were lost LONG AGO. Where in the HELL in Dark Empire is it mentioned, shown, IMPLIED that he used a SINGLE GODDAMN ARTIFACT?! He didn't, CASE CLOSED.

5. Give me a- The Jedi were ripping apart Naga's men with great ease...we saw them fighting the Sith Lords in control of his army and all the Jedi who fought them lived, those Sith Lords died. The Jedi ain't as weak as you think bthey are. Where was it ever shown, implied or mentioned that Sidious used anything in DE? That's right, he didn't. You want to keep arguing a futile point here? You want to argue it outright calls him the strongest Sith ever? DE Sidious is not different from any other Sidious incarnation. If he had the aritfacts, he wouldn't have had to go to Korriban

1. Show me the quote.

2. Yes, because he didn't want to be hunted down.

3. And I could list plenty of Vodo's. First, their ages are comparable. Second, Vodo was considered the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order. Third, Vodo was powerful enough to make his walking stick, quote, "more powerful than (a) lightsaber!" Fourth, he obviously had a good estimate of his abilities since he confronted Exar Kun with said walking stick with the intent to stop him. Vodo comes from a time where there are more advanced Force techniques. Yoda cannot compare.

4. Oh, yes, because an amulet has to be in gauntlet form, right? Wow, you're sharp. I guess that's why Ulic's was a literal amulet, hung around his neck.

Of course the gauntlet ones were gone, they went with Exar Kun. That doesn't mean Sidious could not find others. They do not have to be in gauntlet form. "Case closed."

5. Great ease? Is that why they almost lost? Is that why one Jedi master had to sacrifice himself to kill a platoon of them? Wow. I guess it was called "The Great Hyperspace War" because of all the ass the Jedi were kicking. Give me a break.

Show me scans of where we see the Jedi fighting the Lords of the Sith during that war. Until then, I think you're full of it. And it doesn't change the point regardless; no single Jedi could stand against Exar Kun in his time. No single Jedi could stand against Sadow in his.

Again, quote what calls Sidious the strongest Sith ever, and cite it. Shouting isn't going to prove your point for you.

What is with Lightsnake and these Quotes?

The Last quote he wanted to show me was from the ROTS Novel.

lmao

LMAO! Of course your opinion means far more than official material.

1. Dark Empire sourcebook: "Emperor Palpatine, the most powerful Sith who had ever lived had returned." Says something to that effect in the Chronology as well.

2. And also because he needed the release of their energy, like Kun did with the Massassi to a different level. And Vodo's staff was bested by an angry padawan

3. Vodo's Grandmaster thing is never mentioned. He stayed on Dantooine mainly. You want to say why many people call Yoda the strongest Jedi master? Proof these force techniques beat Yoda's? Did Vodo ever kill a group of Dark Jedi masters by himself and survive next to a nest of Dark Side energy for twenty years?

4. Ulic WORE his Gauntlet several times. What is the point you're trying to make here? Funny how Sidious is never shown to be wearing or in possession of any artifact besides Vodo's holocron which noticeably DOES NOT WORK FOR HIM.

5. The Great Hyperspace war lasted less than a day. Why don't you pick up the comic 'Downfall of the Sith Empire' and READ a little? And Ooroo died in KIRREK, to wipe out an entire ARMY of them for the outnumbered soldiers there. Elsewhere we only saw...four Jedi knights fighting and they killed every Sith Lord they fought with minor injuries. Did you ever even READ The tales of the Jedi? The only thing Sadow had remotely going for him were illusions. When Gav Daragon broke them, The Sith forces were routed very quickly. Kinda like how Exar Kun never took part in the Sith War until a miniscule part at the end.

6. Once more: Did you ever read Dark Empire? Hell, we see Sidious in an open robe at his strongest...no gauntlet on his hands or around his neck, except for his black robe he's wearing nothing. Where'd you hear of this Kaiburr crystal and gauntlets? When's it hinted Sidious had them?

1) Ah yes, because that's not meant for dramatic effect. Oh no, we have to take what they say as God's-honest truth. Nevermind that other sources proclaim Ragnos as, "the most powerful of the most powerful," which can and has been skewed to mean he is the most powerful Force user, ever.

2) No, bull. There's nothing in the narrative or anything else stating that he needed their energy for anything. Much the opposite is true, since Aleema Keto, a weakling, replicated Sadow's feat with Sadow's weapon without having to slaugher Sith Lords. But I'm glad you can just pull reasons out of the air like that. I'm also glad you can just dismiss the ability to make an ordinary object more powerful than a lightsaber as unimportant since a Padawan, who happened to be the most powerful force user of his era and not far at all from Knighthood, could break it using anger and two lightsabers.

3) *rolls eyes* Yes. Nevermind that he's among the oldest Jedi Masters of his time and lived through both of the conflicts with Freedon Nadd, definitely taking part in both. Nevermind that even after 4000 years his spirit was strong enough to help banish Exar Kun's. Oh no, Vodo can't be greater than our little green friend. Nevermind that Yoda displays no powers or special techniques on Vodo's level. Nevermind that both are considered the Grandmasters of their eras, but Vodo's era was a time of war whereas Yoda's was a time of relative peace, with weaker Jedi on average.

4) I question your literacy. Ulic Qel-Droma did not have any of Naga Sadow's gauntlet amulets. He had a proper amulet hung around his neck. Exar Kun posessed the famous gauntlet amulets.

5) Nonsense. The Jedi and Republic were very nearly crushed in said war. And you toss away Naga Sadow's illusion feat like any child can do it. You realize that despite 90% of his army being illusions he was routing the Republic? I guarantee you, Sidious can't do that. Aleema performs similar feats in The Sith War. And the Sith War wasn't so much a war as it was a few spectacular acts of terrorism. But to say Exar Kun's role is miniscule is foolish: He personally curbstomped the wisest and most powerful Jedi Masters the order had to offer (Odan-Urr, Vodo Baas, Ood) and converted twenty Knights to his cause to eliminate many others. He ordered the destruction of the Cron Cluster, and therefore Ossus. He terrified the Republic by waltzing into the Senate like he owned the place and freezing all the senators and guards.

6) Ask some of the others here on Dark Empire, I imagine they know more than me. I'm going off of what they said. I submit, however, that it is certainly not improbable that Sidious recovered or used either of those items given that he did go to Korriban and we don't know for sure what sort of knowledge he's gathered in his long life.

1. Is it an official source? Was it checked over by the bigwigs and Leland Chee? YES. Never mind Ragnos is never declared the greatest Sith of all time. Nevermind he's only called the strongest who ruled the Sith Empire. Palpatine's encompasses all other eras. I'm sorry, you lose here. Even KJA who CREATED Ragnos said he never wanted him above Palpatine

2. Fine, I'll let this point go. My point was he didn't pull a star explosion out of thin air: he needed the artifacts and ship. And Kun didn't achieve nearly so much power until he met Freedon Nadd, have you ever read the comic?

3. The Jedi never took on Nadd ONCE. He left them and that was it. They didn't even know what became of him until Ulic's trio went to Onderon. Nevermind Vodo was only able to return thanks to the Padawans who were banishing Kun-Who was tricked by PADAWANS for God's sake. Proof the Jedi were weaker in Yoda's era? Oh, that's right, THERE IS NONE! Did Vodo ever crush a full force of powerful Dark Jedi on his own or live next to a stew of Dark Side energy for decades? Read Dark Rendevous and tell me Vodo holds a candle to Yoda.

4. Read the damn comic. Exar had ONE amulet. He went hunting for Ulic because Ulic had the other. Freedon Nadd gave one to Aleema who gave it to Ulic. YES, he had an amulet.

5. Bull. The War lasted maybe several hours and nowhere is Cinnagar or Coruscant shown to be REMOTELY damaged, nor was there a single known Jedi casualty except Ooroo. His army wasn't 'routing' the Republic at all. There was maybe...an hour of fighting before Gav fired on Sadow and the Republic crushed Sadow's forces. Any proof the Republic was losing? And Odan-Urr was never known as a fighter and was caught off guard by Exar using a FREAKING SITH AMULET on him. The only thing you can consider significant whatsoever is his rescue of Ulic and Vodo's death. And Ood and Kun's sabers clashed once before a Massassi slashed Ood down. And he didn't order anyone into destroying the Crom cluster, he tricked Aleema into it. And in the long run, Ossus didn't mean a damn. In fact, he was screwed over thanks to Ossus. Send Ulic after his friends and brother, GREAT plan

6. Sidious is never shown or mentioned to having or wear any old artifacts. The last time he ever went to Korriban, he had Vader with him, the spirits there actually asked him what'd happened to Vader as his place was still empty. That's...quite the gap of time.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Is it an official source? Was it checked over by the bigwigs and Leland Chee? YES. Never mind Ragnos is never declared the greatest Sith of all time. Nevermind he's only called the strongest who ruled the Sith Empire. Palpatine's encompasses all other eras. I'm sorry, you lose here. Even KJA who CREATED Ragnos said he never wanted him above Palpatine

2. Fine, I'll let this point go. My point was he didn't pull a star explosion out of thin air: he needed the artifacts and ship. And Kun didn't achieve nearly so much power until he met Freedon Nadd, have you ever read the comic?

3. The Jedi never took on Nadd ONCE. He left them and that was it. They didn't even know what became of him until Ulic's trio went to Onderon. Nevermind Vodo was only able to return thanks to the Padawans who were banishing Kun-Who was tricked by PADAWANS for God's sake. Proof the Jedi were weaker in Yoda's era? Oh, that's right, THERE IS NONE! Did Vodo ever crush a full force of powerful Dark Jedi on his own or live next to a stew of Dark Side energy for decades? Read Dark Rendevous and tell me Vodo holds a candle to Yoda.

4. Read the damn comic. Exar had ONE amulet. He went hunting for Ulic because Ulic had the other. Freedon Nadd gave one to Aleema who gave it to Ulic. YES, he had an amulet.

5. Bull. The War lasted maybe several hours and nowhere is Cinnagar or Coruscant shown to be REMOTELY damaged, nor was there a single known Jedi casualty except Ooroo. His army wasn't 'routing' the Republic at all. There was maybe...an hour of fighting before Gav fired on Sadow and the Republic crushed Sadow's forces. Any proof the Republic was losing? And Odan-Urr was never known as a fighter and was caught off guard by Exar using a FREAKING SITH AMULET on him. The only thing you can consider significant whatsoever is his rescue of Ulic and Vodo's death. And Ood and Kun's sabers clashed once before a Massassi slashed Ood down. And he didn't order anyone into destroying the Crom cluster, he tricked Aleema into it. And in the long run, Ossus didn't mean a damn. In fact, he was screwed over thanks to Ossus. Send Ulic after his friends and brother, GREAT plan

6. Sidious is never shown or mentioned to having or wear any old artifacts. The last time he ever went to Korriban, he had Vader with him, the spirits there actually asked him what'd happened to Vader as his place was still empty. That's...quite the gap of time.

What a pile of garbage...someone call the cleaners.

And I notice you didn't even attempt to debunk a thing. Ever read Dark Empire or Tales of the Jedi?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And I notice you didn't even attempt to debunk a thing. Ever read Dark Empire or Tales of the Jedi?

Lightsnake I have been at these forums since January. I have seen more Sidious fanboys then I can count, more Revan fanboys than I care to count and more fanboyisim than my mind can conprehend.

To me your just another Sidious fanboy who will have his 15min of fame before dudes like Janus and Illustrious pwn your ass to fanboy city.

I didn't try to debunk your worthless shitload of an argument because really I don't give a damn anymore. I have seen the most pathetic of claims and really your not that high on the list of idiocy compaired to the garbage I have seen from EU and movie fanboys alike.

So really go ahead and drink a cup of STFU...

Oh and yes I have read TOTJ however, I have not read DE.

Answer the question: Read a damn thing I referred to on that argument or do you just ride Janus and Illustrious's arguments? Please, by all means, let them come. When they debunk official direct statements that said Sidious was the strongest, somehow prove he had ancient Sith gear and some how prove the Ancient Sith were godly....then I'll acquiesce.

Until then, shut up until you can contribute a damn thing

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Answer the question: Read a damn thing I referred to on that argument or do you just ride Janus and Illustrious's arguments? Please, by all means, let them come. When they debunk official direct statements that said Sidious was the strongest, somehow prove he had ancient Sith gear and some how prove the Ancient Sith were godly....then I'll acquiesce.

Until then, shut up until you can contribute a damn thing

*yawns*

You done yet?

Quite. Screw off, little boy

1) I've looked over your quote, and it doesn't prove anything. What is power to you? Certainly, Palpatine was the strongest militarily and politically. But I submit that any Sith up to and including Exar Kun would stomp even DE Sidious in a fight. That's the point of the versus forum.

2) I've never argued that Sadow could just rip the core from a star on his own power. However, you discount the fact that Sadow created the means to do so. Where is Palpatine shown to create any object to channel the Force?

And please, don't insult my knowledge of Exar Kun. He was barely a Jedi Knight by the time he met Freedon Nadd, of course he wasn't powerful. He hadn't even embraced the Dark Side yet.

3) You seem to forget that spirits lose their ability to manifest themselves over time. The only reason Kun was able to, for example, was because he used his temples and he could feed off the Jedi there. And you seem to think that being tricked by someone is evidence of their inferiority. Nonsense.

Proof that PT-Era Jedi were weaker: No force powers on Vodo's level (ordinary objects more powerful than lightsabers). No force powers on Arca's level (literally taking droids apart with the Force, battle meditation). No battle meditation period, actually. No force powers on Odan-Urr's or Nomi Sunrider's level (blinding someone to the Force, more battle meditation).

That and they lived in a time of relative peace, unchallenged for a thousand years. Sith War-era Jedi lived in a time of great tumult. They were battle-hardened and headed up the military (Dace Diath, Shoanes Culu, and Qrrl Toq took command of the Republic fleet pursuing Aleema in Sadow's starship). In fact, there's little evidence of Republic political involvement in the Sith War. It seems that the Jedi themselves direct the Republic military in large part, unlike in the PT where Palpatine does.

4) Read the damn comic. Exar is shown in TSW with many baubles on his person. It's ludicrous to think they're just decoration. Either they're recovered artifacts of Sadow's or he created his own based on ancient Sith designs. True, it's only known for sure that Exar recovered one amulet of Sadow's, the left gauntlet connected to a pauldron. However, in TSW his right hand is shown with a similar gauntlet, leading one to believe that he either constructed it himself or found another.

And I question your literacy yet again. Ulic Qel-Droma does not have a gauntlet amulet. He has a proper amulet, given to him by Aleema Keto, that hangs about his neck. Period.

5) Don't be ridiculous Lightsnake. If the war were so unimportant, and the Sith so small a threat, A) the Republic wouldn't have bothered hunting the Sith down and B) the comic wouldn't even have been written. There has to be some conflict in a story or else it's not worth bothering with.

Taking what you're saying into context, you're basically saying that the Sith Empire is Zimbabwe and the Republic is the United States, and Zimbabwe attacked and didn't do much, got curbstomped, and ran away. I say that's nonsense. The Sith were a great threat, they did much damage, and the Republic had to respond with extermination.

1. And considering Kevin J. Anderson who created those Sith said they're weaker than Palpatine, your argument collapses. That quote says 'Strongest Sith of all time.' And that leaves nothing to imagination. Essential Chronology says 'Most powerful'

2. When was it even hinted Sadow created the means to do so?

3. Vodo was a special case on his own. and Kun was TRAPPED TO THE TEMPLE by the Jedi, it wasn't something he ever planned. And it took him opening himself up fully to the Dark Side to get his power. It also took a long time of study on Yavin...and being tricked by Padawans when you're supposedly a badass Sith Lord? Yep, that's inferiority for you. And Yoda dismantled almost a legion of battle droids with the Force....and didn't stop toe ducate his student while TURNING HIS BACK ON AN ARMY OF KRATH DROIDS like Arca did. Yoda was stated to have used Battle meditation, as was Oppo Rancisis. And why the hell would anyone ever NEED to be blinded to the Force? Give me a break, the Jedi didn't do that for fun. And countless wars'd be a detriment. I've yet to see a single great feat that Yoda's era didn't do.

4. You read the damn comic 'Dark Lords of the Sith'. ULIC IS GIVEN THE OTHER AMULET AND KUN GOES LOOKING FOR IT, HENCE HIM FINDING ULIC. Hell, the comic even states they're twins, hence the glowy effect at the end during the saber duel.

5. Yeah, just like The Crystal Star wouldn't have been written...And by the way, the Tetans weren't part of the Republic and THEY were the ones who entered the Sith Space, when the Sith Military was practically destroyed. If they did so much damage, where is it? Where were the massive casualities? Why does Empress Teta say they came out of the war with 'light casualities?' Why is every building standing? Why do Momaw Nadil an his group kill every Sith they meet with the worst injury a cut to the side?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Quite. Screw off, little boy

Rawr!

Mister Appeal to Authority can insult via internet!

You know what they say... you can lead an ass to water, but can you make him think?

Do you ever have anything to offer, Guardian?

I do. I pwned your argument in the other subsection. When you're done shouting at people on this thread, go answer for your ridiculous logic. I want your cheap entertainment.

What exactly did you post to 'pwn' me? I admited I was wrong with the script detail. However, all you did was prove my argument that Nick Gillard is a credible source. Read your own link: He created the find of fighting style seen in the films