who could defeat NJO luke

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Stop your fanboyism, now.

Wow, what an amazing retort, you really shot his argument to hell with an amazing display of facts and knowledge.

Face it, NJO Luke may be overated, or overpowered, but he's untouchable in the star wars universe. With the exception of nihilus, he's unbeatable. If you want proof, just look at what he's done. Manipulated gravity, black holes, used the force to move ships in space, he's even claimed to able to rip the engines out of a star destroyer.

Originally posted by Pwned61
Wow, what an amazing retort, you really shot his argument to hell with an amazing display of facts and knowledge.

Face it, NJO Luke may be overated, or overpowered, but he's untouchable in the star wars universe. With the exception of nihilus, he's unbeatable. If you want proof, just look at what he's done. Manipulated gravity, black holes, used the force to move ships in space, he's even claimed to able to rip the engines out of a star destroyer.

Oh God, not another one.

Manipulated Gravity? Pah! Black Holes? Ancient Sith could play ping-pong with Stars. Move ships in Space? Oh how hard, I mean that really is superior to Exar Kun freezing all 46,000 members of the senate. Rip engines out of a Star Destroyer? Naga Sadow could rip the core out of a star.

NJO Luke is very good, but there are lots of individuals that could beat him.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Oh God, not another one.

Manipulated Gravity? Pah! Black Holes? Ancient Sith could play ping-pong with Stars. Move ships in Space? Oh how hard, I mean that really is superior to Exar Kun freezing all 46,000 members of the senate. Rip engines out of a Star Destroyer? Naga Sadow could rip the core out of a star.

NJO Luke is very good, but there are lots of individuals that could beat him.

To begin with, Exar Kun. I do indeed find the senate freeze impressive, but Luke's done better. Particularly, cloaking an entire planet from sight. And Sadow, I seem to recall his ship doing most of the work with that one. In fact, doesn't Aleema use that very ship to destroy a star under Kun? Correct me if I'm wrong of course.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Stop your fanboyism, now.

There's no need to issue commands, Traya. We all (even you) have bias for our favorite characters. For mine, Yoda, Sidious, and Kun rank up there. Thus, I have shown glimmers of fanboyism myself. But so have you. One could argue that you're a Traya fangirl.

Not saying that you are. But it is a fact that you can argue.

Originally posted by Escape81
There's no need to issue commands, Traya. We all (even you) have bias for our favorite characters. For mine, Yoda, Sidious, and Kun rank up there. Thus, I have shown glimmers of fanboyism myself. But so have you. One could argue that you're a Traya fangirl.

Not saying that you are. But it is a fact that you can argue.

This situation may bring some new light to the subject.

The issues of Marka Ragnos and Darth Revan are complex ones. On the one hand, both are described as immensely powerful. Yet on the other, that does not describe what they are like, compared to other Force users. Sidious and Dooku have also been described as immensely powerful in EU works.

Part of the reason is of Kreia's infamous quote:

"We are all like children compared to the Sith of old" or something of that nature.

The funny thing is this. Kreia is a liar. A dubious source. One could argue that Kreia has no reason to lie, and indeed, she doesn't. But she is also a non-canon source describing on things that later blend with canon material. As such, her words are negated.

Ragnos has shown to defeat Simus. Revan defeated Malak. We all know that Ragnos was feared by all other Sith and that Revan was the most powerful of his time. But does that really comment on Ragnos's power. Does that fear warrant him victory over an instakill technique? No. As for Revan. There is no proof that would say he was strong enough to take down Sidious or Dooku. We all (even me) like to think that he could, but there is no proof supporting it.

The fact of the matter is this.

- Kreia can wave her hand and drain Jedi Masters of the Force to the point where they are instantly killed.

- Sidious can summon Force Storms capable of ripping apart entire fleets and transporting people across the galaxy.

- Luke can emit lightning from his fingertips that instantly kill its victim.

- Exar Kun can freeze thousands of Senators in place.

Where can you all argue that the ancient Sith have done better? In the cases of Ragnos and Revan, you can't. Fear is a fickle thing. Sidious was powerful, and he feared an untrained Luke. So, obviously - by your standards - this is a sign of inferiority. And for all of you Dooku fans. Dooku feared Sidious. So I suppose he is inferior to his master as well (I think he is, but many argue otherwise).

The point is this. Revan and Ragnos have a load of fear and rumors. So what? Until you can prove to me that they can survive instakills, or have instakill abilities of their own, I see no reason why Exar Kun, DE Sidious, NJO Luke, and Traya can't rape any of them.

Then again, I operate on fact. Not fiction.

Please site evidence of a Sith playing 'ping pong' with a star...without ancient artifacts.

I agree completly with you Escape, I've thought about it that way too.

I mean, Grievous operated on fear and beated 5 jedi at once.
The Wizard of OZ also made people fear him although he was a phony.

Escape81 that really was an intelligent, well thought out response. I fully intend to steal that argument in the future.

*golf clap*

Okay about Ragnos...

He ruled unchallenged over god knows how many sith Lords of great power including people like Sadow and Kressh.. Sadow who could blow up stars, and yes he created a ship that could blow up stars as well. But he used his own knowledge and alchemy and power for that. He is as brilliant as he is powerful. Yet still he was to scared to move. Simus was untouched as well until Ragnos came along and slaughtered him, and with the Sith... Well if Ragnos was weak he would have been killed. Ragnos holds power far above any other there is no doubting this.

Revan is a far harder case to argue for but even with Revan we knew he was the most powerful of a time with some pretty powerful Jedi and Sith. He wasn't a Ragnos but he was still pretty good, he couldn't take NJO Luke though. Not with the knowledge we have of him.

Sadow needed artifacts to do whatever did and we never saw Ragnos in action. And Ragnos considered Palpatine an equal. Or a better when Palpy went to Korriban

*cough*

Luke: Hello, I am your god.

Goku: No you're not, I'm the god of combat!!!

Luke: *Kils Goku with mind, while simultaneously creating 42 black holes, increasing in power, and trainign 111119 Jedi.

Luke: Next.

*Every single Sith Lord mentioned in EU or OM waltzes up*

Combined: We will kill you.

Luke: No you won't. You see, I have the power of fanboyism, overbearing, favoritist, and DragonBall Z inspired artists. I'll kill you, without even twitching.

*The entire ensemble collapses, dead*

Luke: I will now father a child who will become even more powerful than I.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Please site evidence of a Sith playing 'ping pong' with a star...without ancient artifacts.

It's not like they are going to fight naked.

I can do the same thing, please site evidence of Luke doing anythin in ESB or after without artifacts. You can't because he always had the kaiburr crystal with him.

No, he didn't. There is never anything to suggest or prove he ever used the damn thing again as it is NEVER mentioned. Not once. When does it ever say he used a Kaiburr crystal? Even as a spirit, he gets the better of Kun, he cloaks a planet from view, he moves black holes, slices through an army of Vong, kills an elite group of slayers and then kills Shimrra while nearly mortally wounded. He also defeats DE Sidious in combat, recovers from the Dark Side, took out the Dark Side Elite, plus other feats scattered over the books...

Splinter of the mind's eye. Luke takes the Kaiburr crystal from the temple on Pomojema.

I know that. SotmE is largely ignored in the EU and that Kaiburr crystal is never mentioned again...

Well, aside from some notes, like the charging lightsabre business, it is canon.

Luke would've lost that saber though on Bespin. And since he's never mentioned to have or use it again, we don't know what's what there

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Luke would've lost that saber though on Bespin. And since he's never mentioned to have or use it again, we don't know what's what there

He gave it to Mara.

Luke didn't put it in that saber though, he put it in the one that he uses later. He also doesn't have to use it, it's always "on".

Which means nothing as the Kaiburr crystal is never used or seen again...he's never mentioned to have it after Splinter of the Mind's Eye at all. Kaiburr crystals themselves were totally forgotten