Sidious - The Debate

1. No, Revan IS an ego trip.

2. Kreia's know how?

3. Hmmm, considering he's in Empire's End, you really don't make sense here.

4. They certainly showed quite a bit of unity during the creation of the tomb, the annointing of Sadow...

5. I don't know, why didn't Exar Kun rip apart the fleet that came to Yavin with the Force? And Vader took it on himself to hunt for the Rebels, read the eSB title crawl.

6. Great. So nothing was contradicted.

7. Ah, how quickly you resort to insults. I can't believe I'm being lectured about having therapy from a guy on an MB...seriously that's low even for someone who needs to resort to flames and elitism on MBs. Like I said: Grow up, I'm done with you. Thanks for the broken link

Borbarad, you realize of course, that the most arrogant statement made in this topic is from you, what with claiming to have greater knowledge of the ancient sith than the man who, you know, made them.

Besides that, by your own logic, anything from KOTOR would not be usable as they only have a say in there own works.

And Borda...when you realize Ragnos was created two years before Empire's End when Palp goes to Korriban....(Hell, Anderson created Korriban.)

I can second that, lol.
EDIT: the part about being too lazy i mean.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Hmmm, considering he's in Empire's End, you really don't make sense here.

His name is mentioned were ? Or do we have just another "Sith Lord that looks somehow like Ragnos but couldn't be Ragnos because Ragnos wasn't invented back then" ? Ah wait...

And Borda...when you realize Ragnos was created two years before Empire's End when Palp goes to Korriban....(Hell, Anderson created Korriban.)

This is so brilliant. In which of Anderson's works was Sidious going to Korriban ?

4. They certainly showed quite a bit of unity during the creation of the tomb, the annointing of Sadow...

Yeah. Kressh was in total unison with Sadow. Wow...they were able to remain "friendly" for 10 minutes while burying somebody who reigned of them for more than a century ? What a great sign of harmony and cooperation.

5. I don't know, why didn't Exar Kun rip apart the fleet that came to Yavin with the Force? And Vader took it on himself to hunt for the Rebels, read the eSB title crawl.

Because that fleet happened to carry thousands of Jedi where Sidious was stoped by Luke, his untrained sister and an unborn child ? Still Kun managed to block them to a certain degree. I wonder when Sidious ever managed to hold thousands of Jedi at bay who were coming to kill him...

7. Ah, how quickly you resort to insults. I can't believe I'm being lectured about having therapy from a guy on an MB...seriously that's low even for someone who needs to resort to flames and elitism on MBs. Like I said: Grow up, I'm done with you. Thanks for the broken link

Did I lecture you about having a therapy ? I just gave you three words, didn't I ? Flames ? Elitism ?
I can't believed that I'm being lectured about "growing up" by some person who has to rely on lies in order to be able to discuss his opinion. And it's nice how you keep whining about "insults" while you keep insulting others...

1. You miss the part where Empire's End was 2 years after? And considering said Sith is wearing what Ragnos was, sitting on his throne, it's a damn good guess.

2. Wow, is Force Heretic invalid because they used N'Zoth and the Ssi-Ruuk? The EU's a connected story, buddy.

3. Considering the idea that the race of Sith was united behind either KRessh or Sadow...

4. Sidious certainly clouded their minds and avoided them effortlessly for over a decade. And blocked them? Kun ran and hid and tried to use the dark side on Yavin to achieve freedom and immortality. When did he ever hold them at bay?

5. Thanks for reminding me, I need to get back to Pipes' forum as well as the DH forums, haven't even picked up the new Republics. And you're one to talk, considering you've been nothing but insulting from post one.

And fine: I apologize for the bad blood between us and the insults. I definitely apologized to traya and Glentract. But I do now owe you for reminding me of Dark Horse and the users there. I'll be glad to drop the elitism and be peaceful here like I was with Darkstar. IF you want to continue this civilly, I'll be glad to. If you'd like to end it, I'd be glad to as well.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. You miss the part where Empire's End was 2 years after? And considering said Sith is wearing what Ragnos was, sitting on his throne, it's a damn good guess.

You missed the point of "two years after what exactly ?" I still wait for the answer in which of Anderson's stories Sidious is visiting Korriban. And I'm still waiting for a proof that Ragnos was present when Sidious came there.
And notice how "proof" is different from "That might have been his throne and his clothes..."

2. Wow, is Force Heretic invalid because they used N'Zoth and the Ssi-Ruuk? The EU's a connected story, buddy.

I'm glad that you figured it out. Still...what's your point here. That any EU author can use creations of other EU authors ?

3. Considering the idea that the race of Sith was united behind either KRessh or Sadow...

Considering that this is wrong since they both did have different supporters and that remained as it was until Sadow "faked" an attack on the Sith Empire (gathering most - notice not all - other Sith Lords behind him).

4. Sidious certainly clouded their minds and avoided them effortlessly for over a decade. And blocked them? Kun ran and hid and tried to use the dark side on Yavin to achieve freedom and immortality. When did he ever hold them at bay?

Sidious certainly clouded their mind ? How often does Lucas have to explain that the "DARK SIDE" did that and not Sidious himself before you get it ? It's really nice how "The Dark Side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is." can be translated into "The Dark Lord clouds everything."

And Kun confronted with thousands of Jedi combining their powers still managed to preserve his spirit in the ruins draining some of the Massasi just to kick post-DE Luke and some of his students around 4,000 years later. Yet Kun is still not as powerful as Sadow or Ragnos for the reason that he can't have had more knowledge or training when it comes to the "Dark Side".

And you're one to talk, considering you've been nothing but insulting from post one.

It doesn't matter what I do. If you insult people you don't have the right to complain about getting insulted. It's really as easy as that.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And fine: I apologize for the bad blood between us and the insults. I definitely apologized to traya and Glentract. But I do now owe you for reminding me of Dark Horse and the users there. I'll be glad to drop the elitism and be peaceful here like I was with Darkstar. IF you want to continue this civilly, I'll be glad to. If you'd like to end it, I'd be glad to as well.

Ok. I'll apologize for the bad blood between us as well. You owe me nothing for reminding you of Dark Horse and yes we can and this civilly - or continue it. Doesn't really matter. Basically none of us will be able to convince the other and therefore it's quite pointless to continue the debate. That will only produce more bad blood...

Please check my former post btw.

1. Nowhere in Anderson's stories. However, yes, any author can use another's creations. Hambly and Anderson do such plenty...Allston and Stackpole do it plenty.

2. Yes, that it is Ragnos's throne and armor and that he would have been on Korriban at the time-didn't he get drawn off by Tavion's cult?

3. Yeah, the whole Republic bit. Ragnos himself told them during their duel that who became Dark Lord would determine the fate of the Empire, though.

4. The Force isn't a pendulum. didn't the AOTC novelization say that it was the Sith Lord who was doing so? And on the DVD commentaries, didn't Lucas say that the balance was restored with Palpatine's death?- It's been ages since I've seen them, so I confess I could be really off there. However, even without the EU, it makes perfect sense that Sidious, the Sith Master and at the time lord of the dark side would have something to do with the unbalancing, as the Skywalker Twins, the last great hopes would have to do with it swinging back.

5. Sadow himself never gave any true indication of power, I'd place Kun on a higher tier than him. Sadow was a brilliant alchemist and scientist, but he's reasonably competent in a realm of complete dolts. I maintain fully that it was Sadow's ship that was the catalyst, even if Sadow activated it. . We see the electricity hitting the star that claims Gav, even when Sadow is nowhere near the control panel. We hear him say it's the power of the ship and Aleema and Kun also support that idea.

6. Kun didn't mean to just 'preserve' his spirit, that was a massive error. He wanted to attain true, ultimate power without fleshly bonds...the Jedi locked him in Yavin. Though, he had the power from the Massassi and whatever else he drained. Existing in a nest of darkside energy will do loads for you.

So long as we can agree to be more civil on this....if you want, ignore the above post. What was the point of bringing of the DH, if I can ask?

i think the problem with arguing scientifically about star wars is that its a fictionl universe, and with different writers its hard to take anything at face value, they have different opinions and all want their characters to be the best. if you really look you will probably find very contradictory things from different scources, so i think the best way to decide is to look at it from the perspective of the person who created the star wars universe.

george lucas created the emperor, darth sidious is the only sith lord in the time since darth bane that has been able to acomplish their ancient goal. i think he was designed to be the most powerful sith lord the galaxy has known. while his methods are more directed at manipulation and forseeing the future he was able to defeat the most powerful jedi master on the councel in one to one combat. in a head to head fight im sure there were other sith lords who were better, at combat, but his powers were developed in a different way for a different purpose.

i think sidious is the most powerful sith lord since bane, and possibly ever. in a fight he might not be the most experienced or have the most combat skill, but i think his mastery of the force is equal to or greater than almost any other sith lord.

i heard an analogy that kind of fits. if don king and albert einstien were to play chess, einstein would win, but don king would own the board, the building they were in and hed make millions from promoting it. at the end of the day einstein would have won a game of chess, but don king would be far better off. i think thats kind of like sidious, one on one he might lose to some more aggressive and military minded sith, but in the end he will have manipulated all the events and planned for every outcome and he would be better off. it is his ability to forsee and manipulate that make him the greatest danger and the most successful opponent the jedi order ever faced, not his combat skills. but even then he proved he was a match for any jedi alive.

That makes sense.

Excellently said, decay, except one thing: Bane couldn't complete their ancient goal...that's why he needed the rule of two, in the hopes that such a strong line could end in a Sith strong enough to do so

One thing I don't understand is his reasoning: How could he expect the Sith line to stay strong if the master was always in risk of betrayal by the apprentice?

Survival of the fittest: Bane knew one day, when she'd surpassed him, Zannah'd kill him. when Zannah's apprentice surpassed her, Zannah would die and so forth. The continuation of the Sith overruled any self preservation. And it was occasional masters died of natural causes or battles. Very often the apprentice was killed instead

But then the other Sith Lords, the ones who died out, aren't mentioned much.

Aside from that... The Sith Lords would continue to grow in power, correct?

That's the point.

"a)
The EU doesn't give a damn about "author's intent" or "creators intent". Lucas intent for Boba Fett was that he died in ROTJ. EU "reality" is that Boba Fett was still alive 25 years past ROTJ.

b)
The author's intent doesn't have to conform with the actual work. My intent writing this post is to show you something and I can fail with it. So Anderson - even if he had the "intent" to create nothing that is more powerful than Sidious could "incidentally" have done what he didn't want to do. So it only matters what Anderson produced and not what he "wanted to produce"."

The first is a lie. I have already covered this about the EU. GL specifically authorised that thing with Boba Fett. But EVERYTHING that happens in the move universe- including what GL says- it canon in the EU. No exceptions. Anything that contradicxt s that is wrong. This is not a matter of opinion. It is factual. Arguing the point is futile and if the argument comnes down to that issue alone I will close and simply remind people of the policy of this board in that area.

The second is simply a logical malfunction, by mis-using the term 'intent'. Kevin, if that quote is enuine, isn;t sayoing "I meant them to be like this but they turned out differently." He is saying "They ARE like this. The people I depicted actually ARE less powerful than Sidious."

The author has total control over his own work. Kevin has evey right to assert that his creations are less powerful than Sidious if he wants- no outsider can seriously argue against that.

Now, this thread hs gone massively off-topic more than once. I am now going to make this a final statement, because clearly no other form of resolution is possible.

Has GL and/or Kevin actually made these pronouncements about Sidious? If so, please produce the source.

If not, there is nothing more to be gained by arguing.

We know of....a few Sith Lords in the line. There's Bane and Zannah and a Tales story involving a Sith master gaining a new apprentice.
And dun worry, Ush, the arguing has ceased