Originally posted by KillAll
it seems as though everybody in this thread is basic thier decision off of the AoA universe. which is an alternate reality... but there is nothing to suggest that magneto CAN do that in 616 😉. apoc too has a victory over magneto IN an alternate reality. he was beating up the x-men, the brotherhood and magneto at the same time... so that doesnt say much about mags...i'd say apoc has shown more durability and raw power, plus intelligence in 616
In what alternate reality was Apoc beating Magneto, the Brotherhood and the X-men at the same time? The video game? that's lame...I beat Apoc by myself as Magneto in that game...so what?
AOA most certainly counts because we know precisely what the difference is between AOA and 616. We know the divergence, and we know that none of it affected Apoc's power level. We also, however, know that it DID affect Magneto's power level...AOA made him weaker. And even then he destroyed Apoc. Not only is Magneto capable of doing the same thing in 616, but considering he's 2-3 times more powerful than he was in AOA, he should do it EASIER.
Apoc, on the other hand, is actually weaker in 616, because his original body was destroyed in 616 during X-cutioner's song and had to be replaced with a host body, which was already old and burned out.
So we're dealing with a MORE powerful Magneto vs. a WEAKER Apoc than what we saw in AOA, where the LESS powerful Magneto beat a MORE powerful Apoc.
All things considered, Magneto wins this VERY easily.
And since when when is Apoc a pyrokinetic? And since when would it make a bit of difference?
Originally posted by golem370
"Through his ability to alter his form, Apocalypse can give himself virtually any superhuman physical power" He is also a telekinetic
Any superhuman PHYSICAL power, not energy-based power. That means he can turn his hand into a giant hammer, or a buzzsaw or something. He can't turn himself into a reality warper.
And Apoc's telekinetic abilities suck. That's why he never uses it.
Ok magneto in AOA did not defeat Apocalypse by himself. In fact Nate did most of the damage, and Magneto simply took down a broken Apocalypse.
Here we see Nate engaging with Sinister with psionic blows with his fist. It was enough for Nate to Literally beat Sinister to death. And Sinister is bay far not a weak mutant.
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/7882/xman4pg13xmanvssin6xc.jpg
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/8492/xman4pg14xmanvssin28fs.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/7177/xman4pg15xmanvssin33ni.jpg
Here are the events that took place in AOA during the Holocaust & Apocalypse vs. Magneto & X-Man fight.
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/3689/xmenomegap17xmanvsapo14cg.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1963/xmenomegap39xmanvsapo28ga.jpg
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9595/xmenomegap44xmanvsapo38ai.jpg
And then Magneto finally rips apart Apocalypse. But before Nate came along, Apocalypse was handing Magneto his ass.
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6804/xmenomegap46deadapo4lf.jpg
Talk about biased scans. You show Magneto bloodied and implied that it's because he was fighting Apoc and getting beaten. Not the case. He was a PRISONER and being tortured by both Apoc and Holocaust. No food, no water, no motivation. X-man came and rescued Magneto, THEN an already bloodied and tortured Magneto started fighting Apoc for the first time there, and even after being starved and tortured, they were STILL fighting on even terms (an old, de-powered, starving TORTURED Magneto vs. a full power Apoc), while X-man and Holocaust threw down.
THEN the scan comes where it says Magneto goes down FOR A HEARTBEAT, which gives Apoc the chance to run off and grab the crystal while Magneto was looking for him. X-man came and knocked the crystal from his hand and kicked him. By then Magneto found Apoc and he and X-man blasted him. Those were the only three attacks X-man used against Apoc, before Magneto and Apoc went at it and Magneto won, and you're telling me that Apoc was so weak after getting hit three times by X-man that THAT was the only reason Magneto won? Magneto, after being captured, starved and tortured by Holocaust and Apocalypse?
Are you kidding me?
Magneto was at 30% of his 616 self and Apoc was at 100%+ of his 616 self and Magneto still won.
Again, to summarize - Magneto was 70+ years old, lost half his power years before (two conflicting reasons are given for why he lost half his power - one source says he lost it destroying Ship, the other said he lost it saving Rogue and passing his power to her), and was captured, starved and tortured for days by Apoc and Holocaust personally. Apoc was at full power, got hit three times by Nate, and didn't show any damage or slowness in getting up and attacking Magneto. They fought - Magneto won.
Current Magneto in 616 is 35 years old, never lost half his power, got a power up in Fatal Attractions from interaction with the earth's magnetosphere and is coming into this fight at full power.
Current Apoc in 616 had his original body destroyed in X-cutioner's Song and his currently operating with host bodies that diminish his power level significantly, making him weaker than he was in AOA.
This is a no-brainer. I'd give odds for 616 Magneto against TWO 616 Apocalypses.
Originally posted by demigawd
No. He said, "WE were the mighiest of our race, Apocalypse. Imagine if we were on the same side". There's nothing wrong with beating up a guy and saying that the two of them are the most powerful. It just means that Apoc is #2.
Yep, u're right....either i'm dislexic or i need new glasses.
Originally posted by demigawd
Talk about biased scans. You show Magneto bloodied and implied that it's because he was fighting Apoc and getting beaten. Not the case. He was a PRISONER and being tortured by both Apoc and Holocaust. No food, no water, no motivation. X-man came and rescued Magneto, THEN an already bloodied and tortured Magneto started fighting Apoc for the first time there, and even after being starved and tortured, they were STILL fighting on even terms (an old, de-powered, starving TORTURED Magneto vs. a full power Apoc), while X-man and Holocaust threw down.THEN the scan comes where it says Magneto goes down FOR A HEARTBEAT, which gives Apoc the chance to run off and grab the crystal while Magneto was looking for him. X-man came and knocked the crystal from his hand and kicked him. By then Magneto found Apoc and he and X-man blasted him. Those were the only three attacks X-man used against Apoc, before Magneto and Apoc went at it and Magneto won, and you're telling me that Apoc was so weak after getting hit three times by X-man that THAT was the only reason Magneto won? Magneto, after being captured, starved and tortured by Holocaust and Apocalypse?
Are you kidding me?
Magneto was at 30% of his 616 self and Apoc was at 100%+ of his 616 self and Magneto still won.
Again, to summarize - Magneto was 70+ years old, lost half his power years before (two conflicting reasons are given for why he lost half his power - one source says he lost it destroying Ship, the other said he lost it saving Rogue and passing his power to her), and was captured, starved and tortured for days by Apoc and Holocaust personally. Apoc was at full power, got hit three times by Nate, and didn't show any damage or slowness in getting up and attacking Magneto. They fought - Magneto won.
Current Magneto in 616 is 35 years old, never lost half his power, got a power up in Fatal Attractions from interaction with the earth's magnetosphere and is coming into this fight at full power.
Current Apoc in 616 had his original body destroyed in X-cutioner's Song and his currently operating with host bodies that diminish his power level significantly, making him weaker than he was in AOA.
This is a no-brainer. I'd give odds for 616 Magneto against TWO 616 Apocalypses.
Again, for whatever reason or excuse you want to bring up. Magneto did not beat Apo by himself.
He never has. MU prevents Magneto from tearing him apart unless there is a plot device.
MU wants everyone to belive that Apo > Mag in any version.
And in AoA Nate was the plot device that turned the tides in that match.
Originally posted by golem370🤨 How can the "fire-moving" power be used to nullify Magneto's power???
Couldn't Apocalypse just use Pyrokinesis to nullify Magneto's powers?
From shown comic feats i'd say Magneto will win, from stated data about the characters i'd say Apoc will win.
I usually go with the feats. What's all the theoretical power worth, when it's not really used by authors?!
I'm actually a big fan of the CONCEPT of Apoc's character, but from a 5000 years old genius mutant with celestial tech, who wants to shape the world, i expect a little more than what he has shown by now.
Originally posted by id369
Again, for whatever reason or excuse you want to bring up. Magneto did not beat Apo by himself.
He never has. MU prevents Magneto from tearing him apart unless there is a plot device.
MU wants everyone to belive that Apo > Mag in any version.
And in AoA Nate was the plot device that turned the tides in that match.
He didn't turn the tides, he made it even.
And considering that Magneto also beat Apoc (when they were BOTH full power) in HoM, I'd say your claim that MU believes that Apoc is more powerful is pretty clearly wrong.
Hell, even in the 90s X-men cartoon, Magneto got the better of Apoc in combat, who needed his horsemen to save him.
Look at it this way - 616 Apoc struggled against Namor, who Magneto would beat in a flash, and struggled against REGULAR (not God) Cable, who Magneto OWNED in one panel. 616 Apoc LOST to Cyclops and non-Phoenix Jean Grey - TWICE, while Magneto beat Cyclops, PHOENIX Jean Grey and the rest of the X-men at the same time. And that was even before his second powerup!
Mismatch. Magneto owns Apoc easily.
Originally posted by demigawd
He didn't turn the tides, he made it even.And considering that Magneto also beat Apoc (when they were BOTH full power) in HoM, I'd say your claim that MU believes that Apoc is more powerful is pretty clearly wrong.
Hell, even in the 90s X-men cartoon, Magneto got the better of Apoc in combat, who needed his horsemen to save him.
If you say so..............................
Originally posted by soujaboy09
Can we get some scans or proof of what your saying demigwad
Proof that Magneto was at half power in AOA: Astonishing X-men #4: Apocalypse says: "Losing half of your incredible gift has also robbed you of your fire"
Proof that Apocalypse is less powerful today: See Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix for an explanation of his power burning his host bodies out and how it made him weak. He was killed by Cyclops and Phoenix as a result. I believe his Handbook entry also specifically states that he's had to use host bodies ever since he was killed on the moon in the final issue of X-cutioner's Song.
Proof that Magneto got two powerups: Uncanny X-men #101 (first powerup) and Uncanny X-men #304 (second powerup).
Proof that 616 Apocalypse is using a host body: X-men #97
Proof that Apocalypse sucks: Every Apoc storyline
Anything else?
Originally posted by The Ion
I wouldn't say HOM Apoc was at full power. The Secrets of HOM handbook listed him as Class 20 but the new X-Men handbook says he's Class 100.
the HOM handbook was referring to Apoc's base strength, which was always variable. He can increase it to CL100, but he has to specifically make it so. That's why 616 Apoc had his grip broken by Caliban, who was only CL10 or so at the time.
Originally posted by demigawd
In what alternate reality was Apoc beating Magneto, the Brotherhood and the X-men at the same time? The video game? that's lame...I beat Apoc by myself as Magneto in that game...so what?
no it wasnt the game... it was a comic... but even the game counts... its still an alternate reality. and magneto said apoc was too powerful for either team. you probably had it set on easy, and used some cheat codes too. oh and if you wanna get technical, there is a 3rd alternate reality that apoc was depicted as more powerful... the x-men 90's cartoon. he was MUCH more powerful in that.
Originally posted by demigawd
AOA most certainly counts because we know precisely what the difference is between AOA and 616. We know the divergence, and we know that none of it affected Apoc's power level. We also, however, know that it DID affect Magneto's power level...AOA made him weaker. And even then he destroyed Apoc. Not only is Magneto capable of doing the same thing in 616, but considering he's 2-3 times more powerful than he was in AOA, he should do it EASIER.
you dont KNOW what it did. apoc was nowhere near his power level. again i ask, have you read aoa??? apoc isnt nearly what he is in 616. also, juggernaut has shown in ALL realities that he's more powerful than magneto. and in continuity apocs creation took care of juggernaut. so that puts him on a scale above ALL of them. which is the only thing you have to gauge it on really. apoc i believe is who the x-men consider the most dangerous villain 😉.
Originally posted by demigawd
Apoc, on the other hand, is actually weaker in 616, because his original body was destroyed in 616 during X-cutioner's song and had to be replaced with a host body, which was already old and burned out.
his physical body would was burned out, and i didnt think it was replaced, only regenerated??? i'd have to brush up on x-cutioners song and re-read it, it's been a while. but his energies would burn out mags body also, so i dont see where you are going with this...
Originally posted by demigawd
So we're dealing with a MORE powerful Magneto vs. a WEAKER Apoc than what we saw in AOA, where the LESS powerful Magneto beat a MORE powerful Apoc.
whats your proof of this besides hear-say information??? you have none. alternate realities are actually pointless to use in a debate of 616...
Originally posted by demigawd
All things considered, Magneto wins this VERY easily.
guess this is just opinion. cause i see just the opposite.
Originally posted by KillAll
no it wasnt the game... it was a comic... but even the game counts... its still an alternate reality. and magneto said apoc was too powerful for either team. you probably had it set on easy, and used some cheat codes too. oh and if you wanna get technical, there is a 3rd alternate reality that apoc was depicted as more powerful... the x-men 90's cartoon. he was MUCH more powerful in that.
In what comic did Apoc EVER beat the X-men, the Brotherhood and Magneto at the same time? And in the X-men 90s cartoon, Magneto beat Apoc - he sent him flying out a window and needed his Horsemen to run out and save him. That really didn't help out your argument.
you dont KNOW what it did. apoc was nowhere near his power level. again i ask, have you read aoa???
Yes, and that's how I know what it did. We have a comprehensive history of what separated AOA from 616. The two timelines are identical except for 20 years. In that sense, AOA isn't really an alternate reality...it's an altered reality. Are you telling me that the 20 year difference somehow made Apoc a fraction of his power? Ridiculous - we know precisely what changed with each character. We know that Magneto was never de-aged, surrendered half his power, and never got a magnetosphere powerup. We know that AOA Apoc is more powerful because he spent his time ruling, instead of being pre-maturely awoken from his evolution chamber sleep in 616. You can't argue your way around that....we KNOW those two to be the differences between the AOA and 616 versions of the characters. AOA is NOT a What If.
apoc isnt nearly what he is in 616.
Based on what? His humiliating loss to Black Bolt? His humiliating losses to Cyclops and Phoenix? His struggle in battle against a powerless Cable? His decision to cut and run from Namor? His inability to maintain a headlock on a Class 10 character? Or are you referring to something else?
also, juggernaut has shown in ALL realities that he's more powerful than magneto.
He IS? Based on what?
and in continuity apocs creation took care of juggernaut. so that puts him on a scale above ALL of them.
What kind of logic is that? Magneto created Alpha the Ultimate Mutant, who turned against him and turned him into a baby. Who said that just because you created someone that you're more powerful than they are? That's ridiculous.
which is the only thing you have to gauge it on really.
Juggernaut is the only thing we have to gauge it on??? How about their respective fights against common opponents. Like how Apoc loses to Cyclops and non-Phoenix Jean Grey TWICE, and struggles against Cable, but Magneto tears Cable apart in one panel, and beats Cyclops, PHOENIX Jean Grey, and the rest of the X-men AND X-factor AND X-Force at the same time?
his physical body would was burned out, and i didnt think it was replaced, only regenerated??? i'd have to brush up on x-cutioners song and re-read it, it's been a while. but his energies would burn out mags body also, so i dont see where you are going with this...
His original body, which was capable of using his full power, was destroyed. He's since started body swapping, and as such can't access his full power anymore, otherwise it destroys his host body. That never happened in AOA, hence 616 Apoc is LESS powerful than AOA Apoc.
whats your proof of this besides hear-say information??? you have none. alternate realities are actually pointless to use in a debate of 616...
I gave specific references, including 616 storylines, above. And AOA is valid to cite because we know the divergence point. What If's don't count because we're just thrown in and don't know anything more about how the characters evolved, because it was a single issue. AOA was written by the regular teams for many issues, with an extensive backstory, and in depth information about what changed in them vs. 616. That's why we can use it.
