Originally posted by inamilist
okand there are a bunch of comics where wolverine, and the rest of the x men, cannot touch spiderman
a bunch? 🤨
ummm are you refering to the number of printings or something? 😕
cause there's only the one incident when wolverine was part of the team in question...
Originally posted by inamilist
however, your comics are better.... because... :/
Originally posted by inamilist
look, ive tried to use logic, all you have said is "wolvie stabs spidey".
probably... I mean.. that's what wolverine does...
Originally posted by inamilist
Im trying to use real world examples of how their powers work
which is a mistake.. don't know if you realized it but they're not real world characters.... their powers literally can not function in the real world... period... bringing up the real world negates both characters, that's why it's a comic book debate.. 🙂
Originally posted by inamilist
if we went by all the comics, characters would have a ridiculous range of ability. For the most part, crossovers are weak, because they require a fight between two immensly popular characters
I've said it a hundred times before I'll say it here now...
When someone argues that they have seen evidence of something but that the evidence doesn't count because that character "shouldn't be able to do that" they need to re-think the premise of thier conclusion. A characters abilities are based on what he or she demonstrates he or she can do, not on what someone thought they could do at one time.
Originally posted by inamilistso every crossover is stupid to you?
crossovers are pis
Originally posted by long pig
Um...NO.Spiderman isn't beating Wolverine without webbing. Spiderman is getting a bit overrated. More so than Wolverine.
It's these things where people actually try to say Spiderman can't ever be hit by ANYTHING. (sixth wing is bad about this).
It's all bullshit fanboysm. Wolverine def takes SM without webbing.
yup... ✅
I mean look, spiderman CAN win this... it just sure as hell isn't likely to happen... wolverine 8 or 9/10
Originally posted by TwisterGameX
^So comics in general are Pis. Why would spidey fight the green goblin and win because people want to see the fight.
to "some" extent, yes
unfortunatly, we are in the position of having to determine what happens the majority of times when heros would fight based on conflicting evidence
there are points in spiderman's comics where his SS is invincible, im not saying its not PIS, but we arent talking about spiderman jumping bullets at 4 inches.
you are absoloutly correct about goblin, but, they dont make comics to appease fans, they do it for financial considerations
imagine a comic where green goblin kills spiderman. Id buy it
then, there are NO MORE SPIDERMAN comics, so the company who makes a bunch of money off of the one shot issue loses HORRIBLY in the long run by destroying one of their most successful franchises
so, spiderman vs wolvie crossover. regardless of the outcome (one of the two dead) marvel loses in the long run. Sure, the fans get the best comic they can, but they dont sell anymore (or marginally more) than they would if say, spidey and wolvie fight to a standstill, and they end up loosing a character that fans will buy up ACCROSS THE BOARD
so, to put it in another way, it is more financially responsable for Marvel to match popular but unbalenced characters in issues that would be considered PIS than for them to offer a better and more accurate story that would have more artistic credability.
now you tell me, is marvel going to side with Financial responsability or artistic credibility LOL!!!!!
Originally posted by jinzin
a bunch? 🤨ummm are you refering to the number of printings or something? 😕
cause there's only the one incident when wolverine was part of the team in question...
cool, i though i had a more recent one where he was there, im probably wrong
see my stance on crossovers
Originally posted by jinzin
...........they're more consistent.... 😕
see my stance on crossovers
Originally posted by jinzin
probably... I mean.. that's what wolverine does...
see my post on mobility and balance
Originally posted by jinzin
which is a mistake.. don't know if you realized it but they're not real world characters.... their powers literally can not function in the real world... period... bringing up the real world negates both characters, that's why it's a comic book debate.. 🙂
by real world i mean the "physics" of fighting, which DO apply in the marvel universe, because the characters they are representing are human and therefore subject to the same rules of basic motion that others are, unless stated directly in their powers
what you are saying is that, there is no reason to assume that during this fight gravity doesnt just stop working, because, well, its a comic, and they are bound by astrophysics
Originally posted by jinzin
if we didn't all we'd be arguing over was a stats list because anything the characters ever did didn't count AT ALL... that's why consistency is important...
achually, i agree with you on this. However, crossovers... 🙂
Originally posted by jinzin
I've said it a hundred times before I'll say it here now... When someone argues that they have seen evidence of something but that the evidence doesn't count because that character "shouldn't be able to do that" they need to re-think the premise of thier conclusion. A characters abilities are based on what he or she demonstrates he or she can do, not on what someone thought they could do at one time.
this argument states that spiderman can beat a cosmic level character
Originally posted by jinzin
so every crossover is stupid to you?
not stupid, i still enjoy them, im going to pick up U WvH
however, financial responsability vs artistic credability
Originally posted by steverules
There have been times where venom could have killed spidey, but then that will never happen. Apart from in that comic where he sees the future and he's old and still spidey and gets killed by stray bullet fired by a police man.
well technically.. venom leaves spiderman alive on purpose.. (at a subconcious level) he later realizes this and states that he lives for the moments where he has spiderman at his pity... knowing that he can come back any time he wants and simply.. do it again.
Originally posted by inamilist
cool, i though i had a more recent one where he was there, im probably wrong
well an issue number would definitely be nice...
Originally posted by inamilist
see my stance on crossovers
read it... no impressed...
you see the problem with the position you're taking here is this, everything that's produces for public access by a comic book industry is done so with the intent of making a profit... comic books are a buisness, that much it would seem you certainly understand, but canon events (whether done for profit or for storytelling) are just that, canon events.. true historical events in the life of the characters we're discussing. if you're going to ignore those events because you don't agree with them no matter the number of them and their consistency for the simple fact that they were made to generate profit, then you may as well stop arguing right now... spiderman was created to generate profit, period... (this doesn't simply apply to crossovers), you can't consistently argue against profit making tools in the industry but keep arguing in effect for a tool that generates profit... it's hipocritical.
Originally posted by inamilist
by real world i mean the "physics" of fighting, which DO apply in the marvel universe, because the characters they are representing are human and therefore subject to the same rules of basic motion that others are, unless stated directly in their powers
this I will agree to... some physics do apply... most as with comic books go right out the damned window...
Originally posted by inamilist
what you are saying is that, there is no reason to assume that during this fight gravity doesnt just stop working, because, well, its a comic, and they are bound by astrophysics
Originally posted by inamilist
this argument states that spiderman can beat a cosmic level character
another strawman argument... my position doesn't state that but it would certainly allow for the possibility....
and in this case.. spiderman can, and has... but that doesn't mean that it's more likely to happen, just that the possibility is there...
Originally posted by inamilist
not stupid, i still enjoy them, im going to pick up U WvHhowever, financial responsability vs artistic credability
"crossovers are pis"
all events in comics are plot induced, however if crossovers are fueled by stupidity then they must be stupid... as per your implication.
Originally posted by jinzin
well an issue number would definitely be nice...
lol, i have it in storage 🙂
but thinking about it, spidey beats up bishop then the rest of the x men run outside to see what the ruccus is
you are correct 😛
Originally posted by jinzin
read it... no impressed...
you see the problem with the position you're taking here is this, everything that's produces for public access by a comic book industry is done so with the intent of making a profit... comic books are a buisness, that much it would seem you certainly understand, but canon events (whether done for profit or for storytelling) are just that, canon events.. true historical events in the life of the characters we're discussing. if you're going to ignore those events because you don't agree with them no matter the number of them and their consistency for the simple fact that they were made to generate profit, then you may as well stop arguing right now... spiderman was created to generate profit, period... (this doesn't simply apply to crossovers), you can't consistently argue against profit making tools in the industry but keep arguing in effect for a tool that generates profit... it's hipocritical.
woah
🙂
obviously everything you have said is correct.
Its why i want to remove the "character" from the "comic" which is impossible and probably a waste of my time.
I find there to be too much of an inconsistency between shown levels in comics, with most threads degrading into X did Y in issue Z so it impossible for him to A the B in issue C.
since, the character doesnt exist outside of the comic reality, it would necessitate taking the consistencies from various comics that the hero has been in and apply those. But, like any real survey of range of possibilities, the most extreme examples need to be disregarded.
Can spidey take down the X-men, alone, with a hand tied behind his back. No, there isnt enough OTHER evidence to show that, and the X men have collectively fought hundreds of opponents who outclass spidey in every way
The same applies to wolverine
Originally posted by jinzin
this I will agree to... some physics do apply... most as with comic books go right out the damned window...
mainly im just trying to establish a sort of empirical way of looking at the fight, so it doesnt come down to who did what in what issue
Originally posted by jinzin
strawman, that's not what I'm saying at all... obviously I misunderstood your use of "the real world" my position is simply this, if one applies real world rules upon one character, they must be applied to both..another strawman argument... my position doesn't state that but it would certainly allow for the possibility....
lol, way to call me on it 😛
ya, i think we both have some similar ideas here. We are just approaching it from differant angles.
I am trying to establish a framework that doesnt relly on the interpretation of whichever creative team was writing the comic sort of loosely on how the characters perform in general whereas you are using the direct examples from the books, regardless of the noticable differances
neither is supperior imho. good frickin argument
Originally posted by inamilist
Its why i want to remove the "character" from the "comic" which is impossible and probably a waste of my time.I find there to be too much of an inconsistency between shown levels in comics, with most threads degrading into X did Y in issue Z so it impossible for him to A the B in issue C.
which is why the use of consistent events used to prove a point is important for these debates.
don't misunderstand me... just because character a did this in comic x is one tactic I use it is however, only a tactic used to display the possibility and plausibility of a how a situation would occur based on how it has been shown to occur in the past... (but here's the important part) on a consistent basis.
of course there is the problem of those extremes and my argument runs into things such as
"wolverine took a nuke one time and got up from it... he has 100% consistency surviving nukes right?"
well technically that's true... but we all know that it is also flawed due to being so extreme as you pointed out here.
Originally posted by inamilist
But, like any real survey of range of possibilities, the most extreme examples need to be disregarded..
the point is, we are skeptical to one character and their feats if we see it only once.. however when the character repeats the feat with similar results and does so again and again and again.. we begin to realize that this is in fact a capability of the character and arguing against the feat becomes harder to do in regards to the various and consistent evidence against the argument.. that's what you're up against right now...
Originally posted by inamilist
since, the character doesnt exist outside of the comic reality, it would necessitate taking the consistencies from various comics that the hero has been in and apply those.
of course.. and that's what I'm doing here.. but when wolverine consistently kicks spiderman's ass on multiple occasions well.....
Originally posted by inamilist
Can spidey take down the X-men, alone, with a hand tied behind his back. No, there isnt enough OTHER evidence to show that, and the X men have collectively fought hundreds of opponents who outclass spidey in every way
there's a problem with this comparison however... the secret wars example (which I believe you're referring to at least) had a number of circumstances that led to the event in question.
for instance, spiderman got the drop on them.
they were confused.
they were holding back for his safety as well as their team's own.
they were in an inclosed area where some of their powers couldn't be taken advantage of.
could spiderman take the x-men down in a fight? no... and considering what happened in secret wars... he really didn't... it wasn't a fight... it was one situation where a team was trying to subdue a man without hurting him. Can spiderman give the x-men a hell of a time capturing him when the teams not trying to hurt him? hell yes.. hell I would think he could do that without the secret wars example to support it.
but that's the problem wih using secret wars as an example... it wasn't a fight...
spiderman and wolverine on the other hand have fought a few times...
many spiderman supporters like to claim that wolverine couldn't touch him... wolverine's proved different on multiple occasions... it simply comes down to this, eventually you have to accept the character capible of doing somethin when they just keep doing it.
and no.. the same doesn't apply to wolverine... spiderman may fight many different opponents that outclass wolverine in brute force, or power, but while wollverine's advantages are subtle they are still advantages none the less... the only way the same could be applied to wolverine was if they had only one encounter.. they have had much more than that, and it usually ends with spiderman on the ground are about to have a face full of claw...
Originally posted by inamilist
mainly im just trying to establish a sort of empirical way of looking at the fight, so it doesnt come down to who did what in what issue
which is funny.. is empirical knowledge not made of the consistency of experiments and their results?
is that not what I'm doing using multiple and consistent examples?
Originally posted by inamilist
I am trying to establish a framework that doesnt relly on the interpretation of whichever creative team was writing the comic sort of loosely on how the characters perform in general
which is fine.. again, you are using consistency as a basis for forumlating a conclusion...
well consistently in the wolverine vs. spiderman department spiderman doesn't fair too well... and that was with the damned webbing.
Originally posted by inamilist
whereas you are using the direct examples from the books, regardless of the noticable differances
what are these noticable differences?
wolverine has hit spiderman 4 out of the 5 times they meet.
wolverine holds back 5 out of 5
spiderman fails to knock wolverine out with concussive force 5 out of 5 times
spiderman succeeds in restraining wolverine 2 of the 5 times he uses webbing on wolverine... both of the 2 are during non fights and only one of them is really useable considering that wolverine broke out when he wanted to be free on the other occasion
spiderman is "too fast for wolverine" 1 out of the 5 times there is hostility and the one time he is, wolverine admits to holding back for his safety.
what you've made is a red herring here.. my argument doesn't neccessarily disregard the differences, it simply draws on the consistency which as you're probably begining to figure out is an important part to my position.
Originally posted by inamilist
neither is supperior imho. good frickin argument