DE Sidious versus Marka Ragnos

1. When did Nadd go to Korriban? My memory's sketchy here. Kun went there, that's true...however, Kun's main revenue of knowledge came from Yavin

Nadd didn't go to Korriban, it was an error there, but Kun definitely did. Revan also plundered from Malachor, and over 5000 years, it's hard to imagine it being possibly all protected. And it's even harder to imagine Sidious having it all.

2. I'll use the databank to help here: No one is quite sure how Palpatine was first introduced to the power of the dark side, or how he came to be Darth Plagueis' apprentice. He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times. He studied the ancient ruins on the Sith mausoleum world of Korriban. He unlocked secrets of the Force from a captured Jedi Holocron. The dark side energies flowing through Palpatine's body were so intense, that they ravaged his mortal frame. The very source of Palpatine's strength was killing him.

In modern times. Dead giveaway there.

Kun, Sadow, Nadd, Kressh, Simus, Ragnos, Hord, they aren't exactly "modern" are they?

And yes, it does say he studied the ruins, but it sure doesn't say he knew all of their secrets or had all of their remnant artifacts. He also "unlocked secrets of the Force" yet got put on his ass by Mace Windu.

Clearly he is powerful, but he's not to the godlike level that the ancient Sith are. And the databank does nothing to prove he is either.

3. Well, for years of studying WITH the Ancients, having their artifacts, as well as whatever the New Sith of Bane's gang had, as well as using feats the Ancient Sith have not....

What feats did he use that ancient Sith did not have? He is never once (to my recollection) mentioned to have made a Sith artifact (like Sadow or Ragnos), he is never mentioned to have made a sith technique. He is recalled as the most powerful Sith in modern times, but the Sith were practically a complete nonfactor for a millenia, it's not like you've presented conclusive deductive reasoning to indicate he's superior.

4. If someone found egyptian scrolls, studied them religiously, learned all they could from them, learned at the feet of the finest pharaohs and warriors...

And he can beat them? Guys who fought for a living? You'd think that practical experience + immersive learning is more effective than just transcribed learning.

5. .....have you ever read Golden Age of the Sith, Janus? Sadow hardly ever expresses a view on anything minus "The Sith are absolute, we will conquer all." In between Dark Side sermons. The idea that the Sith were willing to follow someone so obviously murderous and ambitious, when one of their chief reasons for a war was avenging Simus...

And Hitler was all "The Arians are perfect, the Jews must die."

Not everyone followed him, but they ended up doing it when they felt they were wronged (a la the Germans feeling they were wronged following WWI).

And if you noticed, not all of them followed him.

6. Where was it even hinted Sadow created the ship himself? Could Bevel Lemelisk, say, have knowledge of how to destroy a planet as he helped design the Death Star?

It was mentioned Sadow created many powerful weapons, and the ship is always referenced as possessive, even by later individuals such as Kun and Aleema. Sure it's not absolute, but it's more absolute than "Sidious learned from a holocron." For all you know, he could have learned the Kama Sutra from there.

Bevel Lemelisk obviously had more advanced of a scientific knowledge than say... Han Solo.

Naga's ship was based on the force, he had to use the ship as a channeller of his force power. It's expressed when Aleema uses the ship also. Clearly we never are even so much as hinted that Sidious had the capacity to create that weapon.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Nadd didn't go to Korriban, it was an error there, but Kun definitely did. Revan also plundered from Malachor, and over 5000 years, it's hard to imagine it being possibly all protected. And it's even harder to imagine Sidious having it all.

[b]In modern times. Dead giveaway there.

Kun, Sadow, Nadd, Kressh, Simus, Ragnos, Hord, they aren't exactly "modern" are they?

And yes, it does say he studied the ruins, but it sure doesn't say he knew all of their secrets or had all of their remnant artifacts. He also "unlocked secrets of the Force" yet got put on his ass by Mace Windu.

Clearly he is powerful, but he's not to the godlike level that the ancient Sith are. And the databank does nothing to prove he is either.

What feats did he use that ancient Sith did not have? He is never once (to my recollection) mentioned to have made a Sith artifact (like Sadow or Ragnos), he is never mentioned to have made a sith technique. He is recalled as the most powerful Sith in modern times, but the Sith were practically a complete nonfactor for a millenia, it's not like you've presented conclusive deductive reasoning to indicate he's superior.

And he can beat them? Guys who fought for a living? You'd think that practical experience + immersive learning is more effective than just transcribed learning.

And Hitler was all "The Arians are perfect, the Jews must die."

Not everyone followed him, but they ended up doing it when they felt they were wronged (a la the Germans feeling they were wronged following WWI).

And if you noticed, not all of them followed him.

It was mentioned Sadow created many powerful weapons, and the ship is always referenced as possessive, even by later individuals such as Kun and Aleema. Sure it's not absolute, but it's more absolute than "Sidious learned from a holocron." For all you know, he could have learned the Kama Sutra from there.

Bevel Lemelisk obviously had more advanced of a scientific knowledge than say... Han Solo.

Naga's ship was based on the force, he had to use the ship as a channeller of his force power. It's expressed when Aleema uses the ship also. Clearly we never are even so much as hinted that Sidious had the capacity to create that weapon. [/B]

1. Kun wasn't on Korriban much at all. He was there briefly once, accepted the Darkside, looked at the ruins and went to Yavin

2. The databank gives no sway one way or the other there, but Empire's End and Dark Empire use 'ever' and 'all time' rather freely.

3. Believe me, I have numerous other sources, Databank aside: DE, EE, Sithisis...
Here's the issue: We've got people saying how godly the Ancient Sith are, but not a one of them does what Sidious shows himself capable of. He crafted quite a few things, however Luke destroyed most of them and the rest were destroyed on the Eclipse

4. The Sith in tht era didn't fight for a living...they stayed confined to a single space for 2000 years with the only blood one another's. Hell, it was considered RARE for such battles to occur...Naga taking out Simus was a deadly crime and the Sith were up in arms about avenging Simus. That's an advantage Sidious has over them: He's got a much better view of the galaxy than them. He's got their secrets, among others. And Sidious has plenty of his own experience....in 'Sithisis' we see how true that is.

5. Believe me, I know what Hitler was about...

6. The ship, however, was mentioned in several places to use a superweapon-not even with force power- to destroy the stars. It also had a cluster of force crystals to amplify one's power. I can see Sadow DESIGNING it, but not empowering it

I wanna see those panels.....

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Kun wasn't on Korriban much at all. He was there briefly once, accepted the Darkside, looked at the ruins and went to Yavin

How many people do you know that visited Korriban more than once and got something from there ? Before Sidious did set one foot on the planet it was plundered by Exar, by Revan personally, by the Sith of the Academy. The point is that all Sith knowledge comes from the Ancient Sith Empire.

2. The databank gives no sway one way or the other there, but Empire's End and Dark Empire use 'ever' and 'all time' rather freely.

And the TOTJ comics use the term "godlike"...

3. Believe me, I have numerous other sources, Databank aside: DE, EE, Sithisis...
Here's the issue: We've got people saying how godly the Ancient Sith are, but not a one of them does what Sidious shows himself capable of. He crafted quite a few things, however Luke destroyed most of them and the rest were destroyed on the Eclipse

No. The issue is that you have no proof that Sidious ever did something the Ancient Sith were capable of. If he had the knowledge to construct a ship like Sadow had why would he waste resources and time to construct all kinds of Superweapons ? Why did he need clone bodies to stay in the world when the Ancient Sith Lords have shown the ability to remain "alive" as spirits over thousands of years and could posess bodies (Ragnos in Jedi Academy).
If he has all that knowledge then why didn't he ever use it ?

4. The Sith in tht era didn't fight for a living...they stayed confined to a single space for 2000 years with the only blood one another's. Hell, it was considered RARE for such battles to occur...Naga taking out Simus was a deadly crime and the Sith were up in arms about avenging Simus. That's an advantage Sidious has over them: He's got a much better view of the galaxy than them. He's got their secrets, among others. And Sidious has plenty of his own experience....in 'Sithisis' we see how true that is.

How would Sidious be able to have all the knowledge the Ancient Sith had ? The Sith Empire was destroyed but the knowledge remained intact ? Armies of people plundered Korriban but all knowledge there remained there ? Malachor V was destroyed - but somehow the knowledge survived ?

And the Sith weren't up in arms to avenge Simus because it was a crime but because they thought that he was killed by "outsiders". Ragnos beheading him, taking the title of the Dark Lord wasn't considered to be a deadly crime or was it ?

5. Believe me, I know what Hitler was about...

Really ? I live in Germany and would like to know what you think...

6. The ship, however, was mentioned in several places to use a superweapon-not even with force power- to destroy the stars. It also had a cluster of force crystals to amplify one's power. I can see Sadow DESIGNING it, but not empowering it

The point is that Sidious didn't manage to construct something like that and he didn't manage to construct any other artifacts. And again you've argued yourself into a corner. Either you can say that Sidious didn't ever created artifacts like that - and then he's weaker than the Ancients or he did it and used them - and in this case you can't judge his power any longer because "artifacts don't count" in your opinion, right ?

Lightsnake even though, im noob, even in our history we have lost much knowledge, look at history, especially chinese history...over 5000 years obviously knowledge would be lost...this is completely off topic but read the 3 kingdoms, and you will see that one of the greatest marvel in medicine could already open a human skull, and cure a tumour, wheres even today we have trouble doing so, prove that sidious had every bit of knowledge that ragnos could...also reading your other threads, you just want to make NJO luke seem like a god...you are a fanboy and admit it

nicely done.

Originally posted by Borbarad
How many people do you know that visited Korriban more than once and got something from there ? Before Sidious did set one foot on the planet it was plundered by Exar, by Revan personally, by the Sith of the Academy. The point is that all [b]Sith knowledge comes from the Ancient Sith Empire.

And the TOTJ comics use the term "godlike"...

No. The issue is that you have no proof that Sidious ever did something the Ancient Sith were capable of. If he had the knowledge to construct a ship like Sadow had why would he waste resources and time to construct all kinds of Superweapons ? Why did he need clone bodies to stay in the world when the Ancient Sith Lords have shown the ability to remain "alive" as spirits over thousands of years and could posess bodies (Ragnos in Jedi Academy).
If he has all that knowledge then why didn't he ever use it ?

How would Sidious be able to have all the knowledge the Ancient Sith had ? The Sith Empire was destroyed but the knowledge remained intact ? Armies of people plundered Korriban but all knowledge there remained there ? Malachor V was destroyed - but somehow the knowledge survived ?

And the Sith weren't up in arms to avenge Simus because it was a crime but because they thought that he was killed by "outsiders". Ragnos beheading him, taking the title of the Dark Lord wasn't considered to be a deadly crime or was it ?

Really ? I live in Germany and would like to know what you think...

The point is that Sidious didn't manage to construct something like that and he didn't manage to construct any other artifacts. And again you've argued yourself into a corner. Either you can say that Sidious didn't ever created artifacts like that - and then he's weaker than the Ancients or he did it and used them - and in this case you can't judge his power any longer because "artifacts don't count" in your opinion, right ? [/B]

1. Name one of them who got hands on training from Ragnos and the other Dark Lords. Name one who absorbed the power of a Sith Holocron and found relics dating back to the height of the empire. Plundered by Exar? When?

2. And show us something completely different.

3. Perhaps it was due to the lack of massive stores of force crystals and the dead technology of the Ancient Sith. The Death Star and Sun Crushers worked just as well...and Palpatine only annihilated a fleet, sucked the force energy and life from about six billion people on Byss, survived death several times...Notice Ragnos was only summoned, and live on Korriban...and they invited Palpatine to join them there. There's a difference between being totally immaterial and having living flesh. He used it when it suited him....ever read the short story 'Sithisis'?

4. Korriban'd be a big thing, Ziost would be another store of Dark Side knowledge...And I suppose the Ancient Sith Lords' spirits helping him out'd be another thing, as well as access to the knowledge of Bane's line AND the Prophets of the Dark Side from Millenial's line.

5. Lesse, Hitler....managed to inspire nations of people and ranks among men like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and others as one of the most evil people to live?

6. Unlike the Ancients, Palpatine never USED artifacts to do what he did. They are never-not once-shown on his person. And the access to technology doesn't determine someone's strength. The Ancient Sith couldn't build World Devastators, would've made the conquest of the REpublic easier

1. Name one of them who got hands on training from Ragnos and the other Dark Lords. Name one who absorbed the power of a Sith Holocron and found relics dating back to the height of the empire. Plundered by Exar? When?

Considering Exar was crowned by Ragnos, it's certainly not out of the question. Revan absorbed Tulak Hord's holocron, who was said to be the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith.

2. And show us something completely different.

I wasn't aware having the knowledge to blow up stars, create armies of gigantic illusions, have sith artifacts that can power up future individuals, tinker with powerful alchemy in order to provide unnatural feats were anything less than godlike, but hey, maybe I'm completely offbase there. Just because they weren't shown on panel hacking up hundreds of Jedi at once doesn't indicate that the narrator is lying, especially when he so freely uses grandiose terms to describe their power.

3. Perhaps it was due to the lack of massive stores of force crystals and the dead technology of the Ancient Sith. The Death Star and Sun Crushers worked just as well...and Palpatine only annihilated a fleet, sucked the force energy and life from about six billion people on Byss, survived death several times...Notice Ragnos was only summoned, and live on Korriban...and they invited Palpatine to join them there. There's a difference between being totally immaterial and having living flesh. He used it when it suited him....ever read the short story 'Sithisis'?

Perhaps it was due to... Are you listening to yourself? Why are you making excuses for Palpatine? This shows personal bias because you're willing to compromise the evidence just so you can get your side to win.

Palpatine had the Galactic Empire, and you're telling me that the Ancient Sith had more resources to get a some force crystals? That they could create more powerful superweapons with their "dead technology"? That just indicates that the ancient Sith had more force knowledge than Palpatine.

4. Korriban'd be a big thing, Ziost would be another store of Dark Side knowledge...And I suppose the Ancient Sith Lords' spirits helping him out'd be another thing, as well as access to the knowledge of Bane's line AND the Prophets of the Dark Side from Millenial's line.

So after 5000 years of the empire being dead (which alone would cause a good amount of information to be lost) and several plunders, he would still have access to all the previously stored data? Being taught by Ancient Sith Lords would make him equal to "the Dark Lord of the Sith -- the most powerful of the most powerful"? That doesn't equate.

Besides, Kun plundered many artifacts, he had training from Nadd, he defeated his spirit, he had a stronghold on Yavin. Revan plundered Malachor, he plundered the 5 great tombs on Korriban, he jacked Ajunta Pall's sword and Tulak Hord's holocron, and yet I don't see you arguing that he'll be Ragnos' equal. Yet somehow, Palpatine who comes after all of these people, has to take their scraps, and receives some training from 5000 year old spirits, is going to be that much stronger than all of them?

You're gonna need some logic to explain that one.

6. Unlike the Ancients, Palpatine never USED artifacts to do what he did. They are never-not once-shown on his person. And the access to technology doesn't determine someone's strength. The Ancient Sith couldn't build World Devastators, would've made the conquest of the REpublic easier

And it was never mentioned in TOTJ: Golden Age of the Sith that it was the amulet, not the person, who made it happen. Your point?

The Sith didn't use world devastators, correct, they just blew up the star near the planet. You must have forgotten that they met their end while on a ground battle, where Sadow as able to create a horde of tangible illusions.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Name one of them who got hands on training from Ragnos and the other Dark Lords. Name one who absorbed the power of a Sith Holocron and found relics dating back to the height of the empire. Plundered by Exar? When?

Exar sent his people to Korriban to gather knowledge and found the Sith Academy that we saw in KOTOR.

I seriously, I suggest that you read up on the Ancient times because anytime that anyone says anything about them that goes against your narrow-minded fanboy views, you don't know anything about it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. And show us something completely different.

Yeah, because being able to destroy stars and destroy things stronger then blast doors with your bare hands is so unimpressive. 🙄

Originally posted by Lightsnake
3. Perhaps it was due to the lack of massive stores of force crystals and the dead technology of the Ancient Sith. The Death Star and Sun Crushers worked just as well...and Palpatine only annihilated a fleet, sucked the force energy and life from about six billion people on Byss, survived death several times...Notice Ragnos was only summoned, and live on Korriban...and they invited Palpatine to join them there. There's a difference between being totally immaterial and having living flesh. He used it when it suited him....ever read the short story 'Sithisis'?

Is the short story Sithisis a canonical one?

I've proven that Sidious destroying the fleet took less then one tenth the energy that destroying a star did. Why do you keep falling back on this less impressive feat?

Exar sucked the force energy from billions of Massassi on Yavin IV. Massassi are larger then humans, making the feat all the more impressive as they have much more energy in their bodies. Even still, the energy of 6 billion people is FAR less then what is required to destroy a star.

Sidious was only able to come back as flesh when there was a clone body ready for him to take control of. And there is actually a theory that states that the Sidious clone in DE wasn't the same one in the movies, but different as in how Jango and Boba are different. The reason is that all of the Imperials who knew the original and met the Clone thought that he was different and said that he was changed somehow.

The Death Star required millions of people to operate and had to charge up for several hours to destroy a single planet. The Sun Crusher cost more then the Death Star and required new torpedos to be able to run. Each torpedos cost more then 10 Imperial Star Destroyers. Not as effective as a single ship capable of destroying unlimited stars in far less time.

Your knowledge on Ancient Times is pathetic. Do you really think Tavion summonded Ragnos to takeover her body? They followed him and did his biding. BTW, Ragnos is still around as a spirit, but Sidious is really dead.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
4. Korriban'd be a big thing, Ziost would be another store of Dark Side knowledge...And I suppose the Ancient Sith Lords' spirits helping him out'd be another thing, as well as access to the knowledge of Bane's line AND the Prophets of the Dark Side from Millenial's line.

Yes, Korriban is a big thing. Same with Ziost. Ragnos knows everything from back then, so he knows more then Sidious no matter what, especially since he is over a century old and has had more time to learn.

Oh, and although Korriban is huge, as is Ziost, it's not that hard to move everything on both of them. We, humans on earth, could take all of it in less then a thousand years. There have been 5,000 years for a million times more people to take a grab at it.

You don't understand how dumb this makes you look. Ohhh, yes, Marka taught him, so he must be uber!!1!!11!1 The funny thing is that this is Sidious vs. Ragnos. How is Marka going to teach Sidious anything he doesn't already know?

The Prophets of the Dark Side were weaklings. The people from Bane's time knew nothing that Ragnos did not.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
5. Lesse, Hitler....managed to inspire nations of people and ranks among men like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and others as one of the most evil people to live?

Why are we talking about Hitler?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
6. Unlike the Ancients, Palpatine never USED artifacts to do what he did. They are never-not once-shown on his person. And the access to technology doesn't determine someone's strength. The Ancient Sith couldn't build World Devastators, would've made the conquest of the REpublic easier

The stupidity of Sidious fanboys.... Palpatine never created a World Devastator. Scientist in his empire made them. I supposed Borsk has everything invented in the Republic while he ruled it, huh.

You haven't given any reasons for Amulets not counting on people. All you have done is started preaching more of you fanboy BS and tried to dodge the question. Now it's time to answer it. Why do amulets not make the Sih user more powerful?

So after 5000 years of the empire being dead (which alone would cause a good amount of information to be lost) and several plunders, he would still have access to all the previously stored data? Being taught by Ancient Sith Lords would make him equal to "the Dark Lord of the Sith -- the most powerful of the most powerful"? That doesn't equate.

Besides, Kun plundered many artifacts, he had training from Nadd, he defeated his spirit, he had a stronghold on Yavin. Revan plundered Malachor, he plundered the 5 great tombs on Korriban, he jacked Ajunta Pall's sword and Tulak Hord's holocron, and yet I don't see you arguing that he'll be Ragnos' equal. Yet somehow, Palpatine who comes after all of these people, has to take their scraps, and receives some training from 5000 year old spirits, is going to be that much stronger than all of them?

You're gonna need some logic to explain that one- Illustrious.

...

Uber quote there.

BTW, if you leave a computer harddrive sitting unkept for 5,000 years, out of all of the information on it, less then 5% will be recoverable, not counting things like plundering.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Considering Exar was [b]crowned by Ragnos, it's certainly not out of the question. Revan absorbed Tulak Hord's holocron, who was said to be the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith.

I wasn't aware having the knowledge to blow up stars, create armies of gigantic illusions, have sith artifacts that can power up future individuals, tinker with powerful alchemy in order to provide unnatural feats were anything less than godlike, but hey, maybe I'm completely offbase there. Just because they weren't shown on panel hacking up hundreds of Jedi at once doesn't indicate that the narrator is lying, especially when he so freely uses grandiose terms to describe their power.

Perhaps it was due to... Are you listening to yourself? Why are you making excuses for Palpatine? This shows personal bias because you're willing to compromise the evidence just so you can get your side to win.

Palpatine had the Galactic Empire, and you're telling me that the Ancient Sith had more resources to get a some force crystals? That they could create more powerful superweapons with their "dead technology"? That just indicates that the ancient Sith had more force knowledge than Palpatine.

So after 5000 years of the empire being dead (which alone would cause a good amount of information to be lost) and several plunders, he would still have access to all the previously stored data? Being taught by Ancient Sith Lords would make him equal to "the Dark Lord of the Sith -- the most powerful of the most powerful"? That doesn't equate.

Besides, Kun plundered many artifacts, he had training from Nadd, he defeated his spirit, he had a stronghold on Yavin. Revan plundered Malachor, he plundered the 5 great tombs on Korriban, he jacked Ajunta Pall's sword and Tulak Hord's holocron, and yet I don't see you arguing that he'll be Ragnos' equal. Yet somehow, Palpatine who comes after all of these people, has to take their scraps, and receives some training from 5000 year old spirits, is going to be that much stronger than all of them?

You're gonna need some logic to explain that one.

And it was never mentioned in TOTJ: Golden Age of the Sith that it was the amulet, not the person, who made it happen. Your point?

The Sith didn't use world devastators, correct, they just blew up the star near the planet. You must have forgotten that they met their end while on a ground battle, where Sadow as able to create a horde of tangible illusions. [/B]

1. when did he absorb Tulak's Holocron? Game quote please. And Ragnos certainly showed Palpatine extreme honor as well. I don't recall exr being asked to join them in dominion of Korriban

2. Just like Sidious who could devastate fleets, create illusions, empower human beings with the power of the darkside....I mean, hell, not a single Sith who took on a Jedin that war walked out of it alive...and being butchered by Massassi?

3. Perhaps it's when people turn around and say 'But Palpatine couldn't build these ships!' perhaps, just perhaps, he wasn't on Ziost where there were gardens and gardens of force powerful crystals and made due with what he could? The Ancient Sith couldn't vaporize stars on the dot, it was outright stated they used superweapons. And more powerful superweapons? they could destroy a star....Palpatine's Sun Crusher could vaporized a solar system.

4. What part of 'He was taught by the spirits of the ancients who CREATED that knowledge' is unclear here? And Kun plundered many artifact,s have you READ Dark Lords of the Sith? And I'm accused of bias...no, it doesn't matter Palpatine received hands on instruction from people who actively made that weapons and had that knowledge on the strongest area of the dark side in the galaxy...

5. Tangible illusions? And in Dark Lord sof the Sith, it's outright stated on the amulet when Kun uses it. And the Sith blowing up stars was
A. A massive last resort
B. Stated to use the 'power of the ship'...nothing about Sadow there. C. Technology =/= force power, so unless you count Palpatine imbuing the latest technology of the empire in DE with the power of the Dark Side.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Exar sent his people to Korriban to gather knowledge and found the Sith Academy that we saw in KOTOR.

I seriously, I suggest that you read up on the Ancient times because anytime that anyone says anything about them that goes against your narrow-minded fanboy views, you don't know anything about it.

Yeah, because being able to destroy stars and destroy things stronger then blast doors with your bare hands is so unimpressive. 🙄

Is the short story Sithisis a canonical one?

I've proven that Sidious destroying the fleet took less then one tenth the energy that destroying a star did. Why do you keep falling back on this less impressive feat?

Exar sucked the force energy from billions of Massassi on Yavin IV. Massassi are larger then humans, making the feat all the more impressive as they have much more energy in their bodies. Even still, the energy of 6 billion people is FAR less then what is required to destroy a star.

Sidious was only able to come back as flesh when there was a clone body ready for him to take control of. And there is actually a theory that states that the Sidious clone in DE wasn't the same one in the movies, but different as in how Jango and Boba are different. The reason is that all of the Imperials who knew the original and met the Clone thought that he was different and said that he was changed somehow.

The Death Star required millions of people to operate and had to charge up for several hours to destroy a single planet. The Sun Crusher cost more then the Death Star and required new torpedos to be able to run. Each torpedos cost more then 10 Imperial Star Destroyers. Not as effective as a single ship capable of destroying unlimited stars in far less time.

Your knowledge on Ancient Times is pathetic. Do you really think Tavion summonded Ragnos to takeover her body? They followed him and did his biding. BTW, Ragnos is still around as a spirit, but Sidious is really dead.

Yes, Korriban is a big thing. Same with Ziost. Ragnos knows everything from back then, so he knows more then Sidious no matter what, especially since he is over a century old and has had more time to learn.

Oh, and although Korriban is huge, as is Ziost, it's not that hard to move everything on both of them. We, humans on earth, could take all of it in less then a thousand years. There have been 5,000 years for a million times more people to take a grab at it.

You don't understand how dumb this makes you look. Ohhh, yes, Marka taught him, so he must be uber!!1!!11!1 The funny thing is that this is Sidious vs. Ragnos. How is Marka going to teach Sidious anything he doesn't already know?

The Prophets of the Dark Side were weaklings. The people from Bane's time knew nothing that Ragnos did not.

Why are we talking about Hitler?

The stupidity of Sidious fanboys.... Palpatine never created a World Devastator. Scientist in his empire made them. I supposed Borsk has everything invented in the Republic while he ruled it, huh.

You haven't given any reasons for Amulets not counting on people. All you have done is started preaching more of you fanboy BS and tried to dodge the question. Now it's time to answer it. Why do amulets not make the Sih user more powerful?

1. Yeah, mmmhmm. Exar sent his people. Would that be Crado doing that? Or Ulic, who he hadn't seen in years? Or one of the brainwashed knights he sent to their deaths? Or-no, that really covered it for Kun's followers during the Sith War.
2. When you're not doing a thing to blow up the star, it's rather unimpressive. I keep hearing 'Oh Palpatine had this, Palpatine used that.' He's never shown to be handling an artifact once when he does what he does.
3. Sithisis's canoninity is undisputed and it contradicts nothing. And PROVEN? You mean how you 'proved' Hapes had a 100,000 worlds? And yes, yes, I recall how you proved it and ignored Palpatine never used a ship or amulets. And yeah, Exar took the life force from six million? Nice to see you make up numbers! SUpport this figure now...and was it before or after he was attatched to a giant obelisk the Massassi crafted for specifically a purpose as to give their lives to the Dark Lord?
4. Palpatine possessed Jeng Droga. That sort of tosses that theory out the window.
5. Which is why Sadow says 'We have to make use of the remaining power the ship has left!' Sounds real unlimited. And considering we never see that the Sun Crusher or Galaxy Gun had such strict limitations minus 'reload, repeat'
6. Tavion was also holding Ragnos's scepter, his pathway to the world. And btw, Sidious isn't dead, his spirit will never die. Brand himself said they couldn't destroy Palpatine's spirit, but every Jedi is keeping him in the Dark Side..
7. Korriban's knowledge is also rather compact to the Valley of Dark Lords. Ziost's capital was also the center of knowledge.
8. Palpatine didn't JUST learn from MArka, but his predecessors as well, and Plageuis who knew techniques no other Sith before him knew. And the Prophets of the Dark Side weaklings? why does the Dark Side sorucebook call them a group extremely powerful in the dark side? Why was Sedriss capable of fighting Ood Bnar evenly in a force battle?
9. PAlpatine also imbued Umek Leth's technology with the dark side. And maybe, just maybe, amulets shouldn't count just as much as steroids don't count in a boxing match

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. when did he absorb Tulak's Holocron? Game quote please. And Ragnos certainly showed Palpatine extreme honor as well. I don't recall exr being asked to join them in dominion of Korriban

He did get it and in KotoR II Kreia tells the Exile that Tulak created a holocron and Revan took it and kept it (at least it has never shown up again). And we never had some Sith Lord coming to Korriban asking for a way to find immortality before Sidious. So what ?

2. Just like Sidious who could devastate fleets, create illusions, empower human beings with the power of the darkside....I mean, hell, not a single Sith who took on a Jedin that war walked out of it alive...and being butchered by Massassi?

Where did you ever see a Sith in the war fighting Jedi in a 1vs1 situation, eh ? They were either killed while being outnumbered (by Massassi, other troops) or died in other ways (like Kressh) but we never saw a single Jedi fighting a single Sith and walk away alive. On the same level I could say Ooroo faced Sith and didn't survive it - completly ignoring the fact that he sacrificed himself. Ha ha. Great show.

3. Perhaps it's when people turn around and say 'But Palpatine couldn't build these ships!' perhaps, just perhaps, he wasn't on Ziost where there were gardens and gardens of force powerful crystals and made due with what he could? The Ancient Sith couldn't vaporize stars on the dot, it was outright stated they used superweapons. And more powerful superweapons? they could destroy a star....Palpatine's Sun Crusher could vaporized a solar system.

Did Palpatine personally create the Sun Crusher ? No. In fact it wasn't even present before he died. So what ? He had some people designing something for him and you count that as one of his personal feats ?
And the point remained that IF Palpatine could have built stuff like the Ancient Sith Lords he WOULD have done it. He didn't and that can only mean that he couldn't. Why would he waste time and resources to create superweapons and let people design superweapons when he could easily have built stuff able to destroy stars and even star systems based on force chrystals and force powers ?

4. What part of 'He was taught by the spirits of the ancients who CREATED that knowledge' is unclear here? And Kun plundered many artifact,s have you READ Dark Lords of the Sith? And I'm accused of bias...no, it doesn't matter Palpatine received hands on instruction from people who actively made that weapons and had that knowledge on the strongest area of the dark side in the galaxy...

Oh wait...in other threats you've argued that the Ancient Sith have done this in "rituals" but suddenly Sidious can do it alone. And the only person we have seen that did own such a ship was Sadow. I wonder how Sadow would have been able to teach Sidious. And yes, he received some knowledge from the ancients - but all of it ? "Hey...I have some hours time. Please teach me everything you've learned in the centuries of your life."

5. Tangible illusions? And in Dark Lord sof the Sith, it's outright stated on the amulet when Kun uses it. And the Sith blowing up stars was
A. A massive last resort
B. Stated to use the 'power of the ship'...nothing about Sadow there. C. Technology =/= force power, so unless you count Palpatine imbuing the latest technology of the empire in DE with the power of the Dark Side.

Oh great.
Because it's a "massive last resort" it can't be done in other situations ? BS. Does it matter if it's the power of the ship when they can always use it ? No. Technology isn't equal to force power ? Then please follow your own rules and don't use the Sun Crusher as a proof for Sidious power.

2. When you're not doing a thing to blow up the star, it's rather unimpressive. I keep hearing 'Oh Palpatine had this, Palpatine used that.' He's never shown to be handling an artifact once when he does what he does.

Either he never handled artifacts because he wasn't able to produce them or he did handle artifacts and we just didn't see them. And notice that "artifacts" can be force crystals put into a lightsaber, amulets hidden under cloaks, gauntlets, armors parts and so on - you won't even notice them.

3. Sithisis's canoninity is undisputed and it contradicts nothing.

ROFL. The best thing I've ever heard. "Sithisis" is part of the Star Wars Visionaries a series that had Darth Maul return to catch the 3 year old Luke Skywalker ("Old Wounds"😉. Sidious is eaten by a giant worm and taken back in time to his "Palpatine" appearance and starts messing around in the events of the Clone Wars. The greatest part of course is when he's cursing Padme's unborn children, not to mention creating "force lightning storms" to scare the little younglings in the Jedi temple. This story is a uncanon as something can be - but nice that it's "undisputed canon". ROFL.

And PROVEN? You mean how you 'proved' Hapes had a 100,000 worlds? And yes, yes, I recall how you proved it and ignored Palpatine never used a ship or amulets. And yeah, Exar took the life force from six million? Nice to see you make up numbers! SUpport this figure now...and was it before or after he was attatched to a giant obelisk the Massassi crafted for specifically a purpose as to give their lives to the Dark Lord?

I wonder why Sidious didn't simply use the same ritual Kun wanted to use before the Jedi arrived at Yavin 4 to become unrestricted by his mortal body and able to travel the Galaxy as he likes. Instead he used weak clone bodies to become immortal. Sounds like a bad idea for me...

6. Tavion was also holding Ragnos's scepter, his pathway to the world. And btw, Sidious isn't dead, his spirit will never die. Brand himself said they couldn't destroy Palpatine's spirit, but every Jedi is keeping him in the Dark Side..

Yeah. Sidious will never die. That's why he's influencing people post DE all the time as people like Nadd, Kun and Ragnos did, right ?

7. Korriban's knowledge is also rather compact to the Valley of Dark Lords. Ziost's capital was also the center of knowledge.

Oh great. So you have the Tetan's flatening everything in two very small areas but the knowledge remains intact. Then Revan and his Sith walk in and plunder the entire place. Some artifacts and holocrons were moved to Ossus with many being destroyed when the surface of the planet was devasted by the supernova Aleema had unleashed using Sadow's ship. You have Malachor V destroyed with (canonically) no person who knew the powers stored on the planet surviving the destruction. And after 5,000 years passing by no small bit of knowledge was lost and Sidious did have it all ?

8. Palpatine didn't JUST learn from MArka, but his predecessors as well, and Plageuis who knew techniques no other Sith before him knew.

He didn't knew the techniques Plaqueis used and he wasn't able to use them. Otherwise he could simply have created himself a uber powerful host body by manipulating midi-chlorians. Something he didn't do...

9. PAlpatine also imbued Umek Leth's technology with the dark side. And maybe, just maybe, amulets shouldn't count just as much as steroids don't count in a boxing match

If somebody takes steroids and engages with you in a fight were everything (steroids included) are legal. Now he beats you: Didn't he win because he was using steroids ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
He did get it and in KotoR II Kreia tells the Exile that Tulak created a holocron and Revan took it and kept it (at least it has never shown up again). And we never had some Sith Lord coming to Korriban asking for a way to find immortality before Sidious. So what ?

Where did you ever see a Sith in the war fighting Jedi in a 1vs1 situation, eh ? They were either killed while being outnumbered (by Massassi, other troops) or died in other ways (like Kressh) but we never saw a single Jedi fighting a single Sith and walk away alive. On the same level I could say Ooroo faced Sith and didn't survive it - completly ignoring the fact that he sacrificed himself. Ha ha. Great show.

Did Palpatine personally create the Sun Crusher ? No. In fact it wasn't even present before he died. So what ? He had some people designing something for him and you count that as one of his personal feats ?
And the point remained that IF Palpatine could have built stuff like the Ancient Sith Lords he WOULD have done it. He didn't and that can only mean that he couldn't. Why would he waste time and resources to create superweapons and let people design superweapons when he could easily have built stuff able to destroy stars and even star systems based on force chrystals and force powers ?

Oh wait...in other threats you've argued that the Ancient Sith have done this in "rituals" but suddenly Sidious can do it alone. And the only person we have seen that did own such a ship was Sadow. I wonder how Sadow would have been able to teach Sidious. And yes, he received some knowledge from the ancients - but all of it ? "Hey...I have some hours time. Please teach me everything you've learned in the centuries of your life."

Oh great.
Because it's a "massive last resort" it can't be done in other situations ? BS. Does it matter if it's the power of the ship when they can always use it ? No. Technology isn't equal to force power ? Then please follow your own rules and don't use the Sun Crusher as a proof for Sidious power.

Either he never handled artifacts because he wasn't able to produce them or he did handle artifacts and we just didn't see them. And notice that "artifacts" can be force crystals put into a lightsaber, amulets hidden under cloaks, gauntlets, armors parts and so on - you won't even notice them.

ROFL. The best thing I've ever heard. "Sithisis" is part of the Star Wars Visionaries a series that had Darth Maul return to catch the 3 year old Luke Skywalker ("Old Wounds"😉. Sidious is eaten by a giant worm and taken back in time to his "Palpatine" appearance and starts messing around in the events of the Clone Wars. The greatest part of course is when he's cursing Padme's unborn children, not to mention creating "force lightning storms" to scare the little younglings in the Jedi temple. This story is a uncanon as something can be - but nice that it's "undisputed canon". ROFL.

I wonder why Sidious didn't simply use the same ritual Kun wanted to use before the Jedi arrived at Yavin 4 to become unrestricted by his mortal body and able to travel the Galaxy as he likes. Instead he used weak clone bodies to become immortal. Sounds like a bad idea for me...

Yeah. Sidious will never die. That's why he's influencing people post DE all the time as people like Nadd, Kun and Ragnos did, right ?

Oh great. So you have the Tetan's flatening everything in two very small areas but the knowledge remains intact. Then Revan and his Sith walk in and plunder the entire place. Some artifacts and holocrons were moved to Ossus with many being destroyed when the surface of the planet was devasted by the supernova Aleema had unleashed using Sadow's ship. You have Malachor V destroyed with (canonically) no person who knew the powers stored on the planet surviving the destruction. And after 5,000 years passing by [b]no small bit of knowledge was lost and Sidious did have it all ?

He didn't knew the techniques Plaqueis used and he wasn't able to use them. Otherwise he could simply have created himself a uber powerful host body by manipulating midi-chlorians. Something he didn't do...

If somebody takes steroids and engages with you in a fight were everything (steroids included) are legal. Now he beats you: Didn't he win because he was using steroids ? [/B]

and who says steroids are allowed? Is he a better fighter than me without the steroids? If so, why would he need steroids?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Proof he 'absorbed' Tulak's holocron now?

He gathered it, learned from it and took it with him into the unknown regions.

2. Memit Nadill and his companions: All shown fighting NUMEROUS Massassi a few Sith....guess who lives and who dies? Some Sith Lords, being cut down by a padawan....and by the way, being cut down by Sith and sacrificing yourself to annihilate their army are two very different things.

Since you have already shown your incompetence when it comes to destinquish "Massassi" from "Sith", I won't bother to discuss that point with you any longer. I wonder were all those "Sith Lords" fighting and gettin "pwned" come from.

3. Sour grapes much? Proof Sadow created that ship alone. And considering Palaptine was having a ship like Sadow's to a FAR greater degree designed....I suppose if Palpatine had access to massive stores of force crystals like on Ziost...And maybe, just maybe, it's a big galaxy and fear works better when it's tangible? He said something to this effect in Dark Empire. And he imbued a lot of his new creations of Byss with the Dark Side, including the alchemy creatures he created.

Sadow was the only person who used such a ship. Why would anybody "helping" him let Sadow keep it, eh ? Why would somebody even help Sadow building something like that. Logic ?
And Palpatine was having a ship like Sadows ? Were ? Kept under his pillow ? The point is that everything Sidious could possibly know about was knowledge that Ragnos did posess but he was using it for over a century. So how can Sidious be compareable to him even estimating that they have the same amount of knowledge ? That would make them equal in force knowledge (but Ragnos having more time for practice it) and in a fight you can't convince me that Sidious would be able to deal with Ragnos - a huge, muscle packed dude wielding a sceptre that can do massive damage via force to other people and a sword that is bigger than Sidious himself.

4. Sidious is bare armed, bare legged and wearing an open robe only....where're those artifacts? OH wait, he wasn't using any?

Where exactly ? Before he creates force storms in DE you can see that he's wearing some metal armor when Luke cuts his hand of since you have those nice metal rings flying away. His "open robe" in the duel that is closed in front of his chest so you wouldn't be able to see an amulet if he was carrying one ? The point is you estimate that Sidious can create artifacts and for some mysterious reason he didn't use them. Logic ?

5. Maybe because unlike Kun, he didn't have access to a gargantuan obelisk infused with the power of the dark side with an entire race giving up their souls? He was already sucking the life energies of billions on Byss. Go on, name ONE THING Kun EVER did when not in possession of amulets/gauntlet/sother Ancient gear. Weak clone bodies? I suppose JEng Drog was weak....the clones only failed because of Lumiya and her sabateur plot with Nefta and Sa-Di...and wait a sec, I recall Kun screaming for Ulic not to leave him alone in the dark...what's this about freely travelling the galaxy? Kun screwed up the ritual, he said himself he didn't fully understand it

Oh great. Now Kun exterminated himself. It didn't have anything to do with thousands of Jedi over Yavin 4 who attacked him at that point.

6. Sithisis is in the continuity. It disputes no canon unlike Old Wounds. Other stories that're canon there include Prototypes and the Grievous one

A time travel which could just be a dream of Sidious himself is "canon" nowadays and it doesn't contradict anything ? So he cursed Padme's children and the curse was doing nothing. He went to talk to the ancient Sith and nobody noticed it ? He left his office and was gone to aid Anakin and nobody noticed it ? And where was his "original" spirit gone at this time when he posessed his own former body, eh ? Cut it...the Visionaries don't even come close to be counted as "canon" or part of the continuity.

7. Nadd influencing people post DE? His spirit was annihilated four thousand years prior, 1 and 2: I don't recall Kun and Ragnos ever establishing themselves as major powers after physical deaths...Ragnos was foiled by Jaden Korr and Kun's going mad from isolation.

Do you just play stupid or are you stupid ? Nadd manipulated people 400 years after his physical death. Ragnos caused trouble 5,000 years after his physical death. Kun nearly destroyed Luke's entire academy by use of his force powers and manipulating Luke's students. Sidious after his final defeat didn't return to do something like that but he's still greater than Nadd, Kun and Ragnos ?

8. Take up the knowledge stuff with the Darkside sourcebook instead of me. Once more, I do suppose the idea that a lot of Ancient Sith spirits helping you out with that knowledge thing would be a MASSIVE benefit, but....

So you suppose the idea a lot of Ancient Sith spirits - people that lived for centuries - can give you all knowledge they archieved in their lifetime in a very short amount of time when you've come to ask them about a special issue ? To learn everything the Ancient Sith had to offer Sidious would have had to stay with them for years. Something he didn't do.

9. Proof Plageuis knew what Palpatine said he did. It's only ever been implied or hinted.

I'm sure you realize that you only kicked your own argument with that statement, right ? If Plagueis didn't have knowledge "nobody had before" he couldn't have taught it to Sidious...

and who says steroids are allowed? Is he a better fighter than me without the steroids? If so, why would he need steroids?

Your use of "logic" is unbelieveable. So a fighter who's already good only gets better using steroids. He never fights without steroids but somehow you can tell how could he would be without them ? And if you search for "unlimited power" and want to "rule the Galaxy" everything is allowed. Since when are "Sith" considered to be "fair", huh ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
He gathered it, learned from it and took it with him into the unknown regions.

Since you have already shown your incompetence when it comes to destinquish "Massassi" from "Sith", I won't bother to discuss that point with you any longer. I wonder were all those "Sith Lords" fighting and gettin "pwned" come from.

Sadow was the only person who used such a ship. Why would anybody "helping" him let Sadow keep it, eh ? Why would somebody even help Sadow building something like that. Logic ?
And Palpatine was having a ship like Sadows ? Were ? Kept under his pillow ? The point is that everything Sidious could possibly know about was knowledge that Ragnos did posess but he was using it for over a century. So how can Sidious be compareable to him even estimating that they have the same amount of knowledge ? That would make them equal in force knowledge (but Ragnos having more time for practice it) and in a fight you can't convince me that Sidious would be able to deal with Ragnos - a huge, muscle packed dude wielding a sceptre that can do massive damage via force to other people and a sword that is bigger than Sidious himself.

Where exactly ? Before he creates force storms in DE you can see that he's wearing some metal armor when Luke cuts his hand of since you have those nice metal rings flying away. His "open robe" in the duel that is closed in front of his chest so you wouldn't be able to see an amulet if he was carrying one ? The point is you estimate that Sidious can create artifacts and for some mysterious reason he didn't use them. Logic ?

Oh great. Now Kun exterminated himself. It didn't have anything to do with thousands of Jedi over Yavin 4 who attacked him at that point.

A time travel which could just be a dream of Sidious himself is "canon" nowadays and it doesn't contradict anything ? So he cursed Padme's children and the curse was doing nothing. He went to talk to the ancient Sith and nobody noticed it ? He left his office and was gone to aid Anakin and nobody noticed it ? And where was his "original" spirit gone at this time when he posessed his own former body, eh ? Cut it...the Visionaries don't even come close to be counted as "canon" or part of the continuity.

Do you just play stupid or are you stupid ? Nadd manipulated people 400 years after his physical death. Ragnos caused trouble 5,000 years after his physical death. Kun nearly destroyed Luke's entire academy by use of his force powers and manipulating Luke's students. Sidious after his final defeat didn't return to do something like that but he's still greater than Nadd, Kun and Ragnos ?

So you suppose the idea a lot of Ancient Sith spirits - people that lived for centuries - can give you all knowledge they archieved in their lifetime in a very short amount of time when you've come to ask them about a special issue ? To learn everything the Ancient Sith had to offer Sidious would have had to stay with them for years. Something he didn't do.

I'm sure you realize that you only kicked your own argument with that statement, right ? If Plagueis didn't have knowledge "nobody had before" he couldn't have taught it to Sidious...

Your use of "logic" is unbelieveable. So a fighter who's already good only gets better using steroids. He never fights without steroids but somehow you can tell how could he would be without them ? And if you search for "unlimited power" and want to "rule the Galaxy" everything is allowed. Since when are "Sith" considered to be "fair", huh ?

1. That translates to 'Absorbed?'

2. I don't think Massassi wear elaborate armor with horned headresses...or golden armor and flowing capes. Look at the scene where egyptian looking JEdi crouches over his dead enemy's corpse....or the Massassi decide to butcher all the Sith...or Ludo's death....or when Memit kills that other nameless lord who was leading the Coruscant charge.

3. Kressh's ship was remarkably similar to Sadow's. Why would Sadow's followers and allies help him experiment and build ships? How did Sadow build that ship while ragnos was totally ignorant of it or disapproved of it? A ship that can blow up stars sure as heck could cause civil unrest with the Sith....when did you see Ragnos's sword now by the by? And considering Ragnos held Sidious in incredible esteem as it was....not to mention Sidious possessed the power to, on his own, vaporize a fleet WITHOUT ships and crystals...And you know he didn't use them how? He didn't have them on him at that particular point or when he did what we saw him do but they were certainly there in his room when he spoke to Leia and showed her Baas's Holocron and discussed in the DSC

4. Kun himself said he didn't entirely understand the ritual and still tried it...did he really underestimate the JEdi that much? Arrogance is a usual Sith failing, along with betrayal, but still...

5. Tell it to the Sith themselves...in Empire's End...It'd been ten years since he last visited....that's...three years prior to ROTJ. With Vader as an administrator and the fact he used to vacation to byss often enough, and had a youth once...I don't think it'd be too hard to vanish for a bit. And perhaps you missed it, but in Sithisis there's no time travel. The idea was that he undergoes that dark side ritual, uses the dark side to do whatever he did and at the end, exits, fixes himself up and goes to greet the senate as Senator Palpatine. And explain the canonical Grievous story and the canonical Durge story.

6. Nadd manipulated people? That ended with him geting vaporized. Ragnos was reduced to helping HETHRIR'S leftovers and Kun? He was tricked by Padawans and told off by Corran Horn.

7. PRoof he didn't stay on Korriban for years? he was young once, he took many trips there and had their holocrons, as well as ample time to study the ruins. Not to mention Byss, which was a world thick in the dark side

8. Waaaait, 'knowledge unknown before' has to equate to exactly what Sidious said it did? Saving people from dying and influencing the midichlorians and the like? That HAS to be that and only that? What would influencing the midichlorians have to do with it anyways? Settle back and hope the kid grows healthy?

10. If it can work like that, Ragnos walks into the arena and finds a note jsut before the Death Star Vapes the planet. Using this 'When are Sith fair' logic is fun...hell, they're both likely to just destroy the other in an underhanded manner rather than fight. They fight fairly or they don't fight at all, which is it?

Lightsnake, who don't you quote each paragraph individually? It doesn't take very much time to do(maybe 15 seconds) and it makes it a ton easier to see what you're talking about.

Who cares?

I'm just saying it would be easier to read and understand.