DE Sidious versus Marka Ragnos

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. That translates to 'Absorbed?'

That translates into: Look a piece of Sith knowledge Sidious couldn't have access to.

2. I don't think Massassi wear elaborate armor with horned headresses...or golden armor and flowing capes. Look at the scene where egyptian looking JEdi crouches over his dead enemy's corpse....or the Massassi decide to butcher all the Sith...or Ludo's death....or when Memit kills that other nameless lord who was leading the Coruscant charge.

The egyptian looking Jedi ? You're talking about Tuknatan ? So a Jedi Master that is somewhere 3 metres in hight was able to contend with a Sith who was less powerful than Sadow ? That proofs what exactly since we don't know how that Sith did die ? The Massassi surprising them by betrayal and outnumbering them ? Ludo getting killed by Sadow ? And Memit Nadill, Empress Teta's advisor, so another Jedi Master (considering that his lightsaber looks as if it had electrum applied to it - that would make him a Council Member), did defeat a nother nameless (and therefore unimportant) Sith. I wonder where you get all that Sith "LORD" stuff from. Have you seen the same people appearing to be part of the governing council of the Sith Empire ?

3. Kressh's ship was remarkably similar to Sadow's. Why would Sadow's followers and allies help him experiment and build ships? How did Sadow build that ship while ragnos was totally ignorant of it or disapproved of it? A ship that can blow up stars sure as heck could cause civil unrest with the Sith....

Kressh's ship was similar to Sadow's ? Did you see some superweapon installed able to blow stars up or did you ever see Kressh using it that way ? Could have been helpful to defeat Sadow before the Great Hyperspace War started. And why would Ragnos care about something like that ? He was the unquestioned ruler over an Empire and didn't want to expand it. What use would he have for a ship like that ?

when did you see Ragnos's sword now by the by?

Jedi Academy Game...

And considering Ragnos held Sidious in incredible esteem as it was....not to mention Sidious possessed the power to, on his own, vaporize a fleet WITHOUT ships and crystals...And you know he didn't use them how? He didn't have them on him at that particular point or when he did what we saw him do but they were certainly there in his room when he spoke to Leia and showed her Baas's Holocron and discussed in the DSC

Wow. Ragnos also told Exar Kun that he would be the one to lead the Sith to another Golden Age. Is that some "high esteem" ? And what do you want to tell me know ? That Sidious can use artifacts or not depending on if you want him to do it or not ?

4. Kun himself said he didn't entirely understand the ritual and still tried it...did he really underestimate the JEdi that much? Arrogance is a usual Sith failing, along with betrayal, but still...

He did try to seperate his spirit from his body to run rampant to the galaxy and it took thousands of Jedi to stop him from doing so but they only managed to bind his spirit to Yavin 4 where he was able to run around as he liked, destroy objects (the Holocron), kill force users, attack them (Luke and his students) - force choking them or simply knock them out (Dorskk 81), control their dreams and so on.

5. Tell it to the Sith themselves...in Empire's End...It'd been ten years since he last visited....that's...three years prior to ROTJ. With Vader as an administrator and the fact he used to vacation to byss often enough, and had a youth once...I don't think it'd be too hard to vanish for a bit.

I was talking about the time when he was Chancelor and since he had Jedi sitting in his office every day, Senate meetings and other stuff to do I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been able to "vanish" for a while as he liked.

And perhaps you missed it, but in Sithisis there's no time travel. The idea was that he undergoes that dark side ritual, uses the dark side to do whatever he did and at the end, exits, fixes himself up and goes to greet the senate as Senator Palpatine. And explain the canonical Grievous story and the canonical Durge story.

The Visionaries are stories based on single pieces of Artwork. The events mentioned didn't affect any Chronologies or timelines so far and so it's basically speculation if they're canon or not. Yet having Palpatine go throug a massive Sith ritual basically manipulating events in the entire Galaxy as he likes without anybody interferring (via force) or noticing anything is just an impossibility. And even if he did - he got that ritual from a holocron meaning you would have "ancient Sith knowledge" there again.

6. Nadd manipulated people? That ended with him geting vaporized. Ragnos was reduced to helping HETHRIR'S leftovers and Kun? He was tricked by Padawans and told off by Corran Horn.

Nadd was manipulating all rulers of Onderon for 400 years and then Exar Kun and - to a certain extend - the Keto's. And Exar - the most powerful student 600 year old Vodo had so far in his life, wasn't able to do something against it until he found Sadow's amulet. And Ragnos could command people like Sadow and Kressh around, influence Exar and Ulic 1,000 years after his death and teach stuff to your beloved Sidious 5,000 years after his death.

7. PRoof he didn't stay on Korriban for years? he was young once, he took many trips there and had their holocrons, as well as ample time to study the ruins. Not to mention Byss, which was a world thick in the dark side

It's mentioned that Sidious never went to that places before he killed Plagueis and he started his political career in the age of 32 (when he was elected as Senator of Naboo). And considering the fact that the ancients were even discussing to give them a certain information when he was at the top of his power 60 years later, I doubt that they taught him really important or powerful stuff when he visited the place for the first time.

8. Waaaait, 'knowledge unknown before' has to equate to exactly what Sidious said it did? Saving people from dying and influencing the midichlorians and the like? That HAS to be that and only that? What would influencing the midichlorians have to do with it anyways? Settle back and hope the kid grows healthy?

Yeah. It has to equate exactly that since Sidious mentions it just to give the statement that this was something that "nobody archieved before".

10. If it can work like that, Ragnos walks into the arena and finds a note jsut before the Death Star Vapes the planet. Using this 'When are Sith fair' logic is fun...hell, they're both likely to just destroy the other in an underhanded manner rather than fight. They fight fairly or they don't fight at all, which is it?

You still keep up comparing uncomparable situations. Can Sidious put the death star into his pocket while facing Ragnos ? No. Can Ragnos carry all his artifacts with him ? Yes. See the point ? By the way: Have we ever seen Ragnos using artifacts while ruling over the Sith Empire ?
The point is you move the individuals to an area with every equipment they have and use and let them fight. A "Sith Sword" can be seen as a dark side artifact so Ragnos isn't allowed to use a weapon ? Lightsabers are "jedi artifacts" so they are fighting without them ? That reduces all possible fights to X vs Y without weapons and naked and nothing else.
And if the situation would be like you descripe it, Sidious would walk into the throne room on his death star and find a not just before Ragnos throws the core of a star at the station or turns the next star into a supernova destroying it.

In a duel with all equipment they have it's Ragnos (+ possible artifacts) with his sceptre and sith sword vs Sidious (+ possible artifacts) with his lightsaber. And Sidious, who didn't grow up in a martial culture fighting the entire day and who only has knowledge that Ragnos possessed already (and even not everything Ragnos did know) would get destroyed there. Period.

Originally posted by Borbarad
That translates into: Look a piece of Sith knowledge Sidious couldn't have access to.

The egyptian looking Jedi ? You're talking about Tuknatan ? So a Jedi Master that is somewhere 3 metres in hight was able to contend with a Sith who was less powerful than Sadow ? That proofs what exactly since we don't know how that Sith did die ? The Massassi surprising them by betrayal and outnumbering them ? Ludo getting killed by Sadow ? And Memit Nadill, Empress Teta's advisor, so another Jedi Master (considering that his lightsaber looks as if it had electrum applied to it - that would make him a Council Member), did defeat a nother nameless (and therefore unimportant) Sith. I wonder where you get all that Sith "LORD" stuff from. Have you seen the same people appearing to be part of the governing council of the Sith Empire ?

Kressh's ship was similar to Sadow's ? Did you see some superweapon installed able to blow stars up or did you ever see Kressh using it that way ? Could have been helpful to defeat Sadow before the Great Hyperspace War started. And why would Ragnos care about something like that ? He was the unquestioned ruler over an Empire and didn't want to expand it. What use would he have for a ship like that ?

Jedi Academy Game...

Wow. Ragnos also told Exar Kun that he would be the one to lead the Sith to another Golden Age. Is that some "high esteem" ? And what do you want to tell me know ? That Sidious can use artifacts or not depending on if [b]you want him to do it or not ?

He did try to seperate his spirit from his body to run rampant to the galaxy and it took thousands of Jedi to stop him from doing so but they only managed to bind his spirit to Yavin 4 where he was able to run around as he liked, destroy objects (the Holocron), kill force users, attack them (Luke and his students) - force choking them or simply knock them out (Dorskk 81), control their dreams and so on.

I was talking about the time when he was Chancelor and since he had Jedi sitting in his office every day, Senate meetings and other stuff to do I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been able to "vanish" for a while as he liked.

The Visionaries are stories based on single pieces of Artwork. The events mentioned didn't affect any Chronologies or timelines so far and so it's basically speculation if they're canon or not. Yet having Palpatine go throug a massive Sith ritual basically manipulating events in the entire Galaxy as he likes without anybody interferring (via force) or noticing anything is just an impossibility. And even if he did - he got that ritual from a holocron meaning you would have "ancient Sith knowledge" there again.

Nadd was manipulating all rulers of Onderon for 400 years and then Exar Kun and - to a certain extend - the Keto's. And Exar - the most powerful student 600 year old Vodo had so far in his life, wasn't able to do something against it until he found Sadow's amulet. And Ragnos could command people like Sadow and Kressh around, influence Exar and Ulic 1,000 years after his death and teach stuff to your beloved Sidious 5,000 years after his death.

It's mentioned that Sidious never went to that places before he killed Plagueis and he started his political career in the age of 32 (when he was elected as Senator of Naboo). And considering the fact that the ancients were even discussing to give them a certain information when he was at the top of his power 60 years later, I doubt that they taught him really important or powerful stuff when he visited the place for the first time.

Yeah. It has to equate exactly that since Sidious mentions it just to give the statement that this was something that "nobody archieved before".

You still keep up comparing uncomparable situations. Can Sidious put the death star into his pocket while facing Ragnos ? No. Can Ragnos carry all his artifacts with him ? Yes. See the point ? By the way: Have we ever seen Ragnos using artifacts while ruling over the Sith Empire ?
The point is you move the individuals to an area with every equipment they have and use and let them fight. A "Sith Sword" can be seen as a dark side artifact so Ragnos isn't allowed to use a weapon ? Lightsabers are "jedi artifacts" so they are fighting without them ? That reduces all possible fights to X vs Y without weapons and naked and nothing else.
And if the situation would be like you descripe it, Sidious would walk into the throne room on his death star and find a not just before Ragnos throws the core of a star at the station or turns the next star into a supernova destroying it.

In a duel with all equipment they have it's Ragnos (+ possible artifacts) with his sceptre and sith sword vs Sidious (+ possible artifacts) with his lightsaber. And Sidious, who didn't grow up in a martial culture fighting the entire day and who only has knowledge that Ragnos possessed already (and even not everything Ragnos did know) would get destroyed there. Period. [/B]

1. Except from Tulak Hord himself.

2. PErhaps, because we see the Sith Memit fights in a lord's golden armor....was Shar Dakhan the third most powerful Sith? He had a name after all...not to mention said armroed Sith was shown leading the attack on Coruscant....and wonderfully powerful Sith, getting slaughtered and surprised by a group of Massassi...no defenses whatsoever.

3. I'm REALLY sure KRessh, who wanted to preserve the Empire wanted to start blowing up his own stars and worlds...and with a ship like that, Ragnos could have expanded that empire plenty.

4. And a game's expression of something is canon now? We see Ludo Kressh's war sword to be little more than a pike in KOTOR when we see him dueling Naga with it in Golden Age.

5. Ragnos told him because of him the Sith would never die and he'd rightly earned the title. And I'd say inviting someone to join you and the others over Korriban's dominion is quite the esteem. Oh, yes, unlike Exar, Sidious is never seen using those artifacts

6. Once more: HE was connected to Yavin. I, Jedi pretty much confirmed that when corrsan destroyed his statue. And it didn't 'take' thousands of Jedi to stop him, he was crushed and overwhelmed by them, but he never matched them for power. and once more: he said himself he didn't necessarily understand the ritual.

7. he didn't go anywhere during the Clone wars certainly...that's three years compared to....fifty? He had his aids covering for him, too....I'm sure noone noticed him running off to Mustafar.

8. Nadd didn't enter into anything until Arca opened up his tomb. And Exar couldn't exactly confront a spirit who stood well out of harm's reach. And Ragnos could command a shortsighted moron and a whining fool, big achievment. The Sith didn't exactly bat a hundred minus ragnos, Tulak and Ajunta back then.

9. Proof he never went to those places before he killed Plageuis. the DS sorucebook said he learned the darkest secrets Korriban and the Sith had to offer there.

10. Can Sidious trick Ragnos, not show up and simply vaporize the planet? Yes. And Sidious will also be using knowledge before AND after ragnos's time....and how about this: Nothing to enchance their force ability. Nothing to increase or amplify it. Just them as they are without the toys.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Except from Tulak Hord himself.

Who was never seen being present somewhere. And Sidious wasn't an extraordenary lightsaber duellists as we all have seen in ROTS and the DE comics. If he had knowledge about Tulak's fighting style he could have pretty much defeated anybody else in a lightsaber duel.

2. PErhaps, because we see the Sith Memit fights in a lord's golden armor....was Shar Dakhan the third most powerful Sith? He had a name after all...not to mention said armroed Sith was shown leading the attack on Coruscant....and wonderfully powerful Sith, getting slaughtered and surprised by a group of Massassi...no defenses whatsoever.

The "third most powerful" Sith is unknown since we only know that Sadow and Kressh were basically equals and the only people that had a chance to get the Dark Lord title meaning all others must have been some steps below them in terms of power. So I guess a Jedi Master (maybe Council Member) like Memit might be able to take one of them. And yeah surprised by a group of Massassi. Think about that statement...

3. I'm REALLY sure KRessh, who wanted to preserve the Empire wanted to start blowing up his own stars and worlds...and with a ship like that, Ragnos could have expanded that empire plenty.

Blowing up a single world to stop Sadow from letting the entire empire get destroyed...yes, he would do that. And Ragnos couldn't expand the empire since that ship wouldn't enable him to control more that he already did. As I said: Sidious had at least 25,000 Star Destroyers, millions of other ships and some Death Star and couldn't control his own Empire.

4. And a game's expression of something is canon now? We see Ludo Kressh's war sword to be little more than a pike in KOTOR when we see him dueling Naga with it in Golden Age.

This is an EU subforum and therefore the things expressed in the games count unless they contradict higher levels of canon. Is there anything in order to contradict the idea of Ragnos using a Sith sword ? No ? Thanks.

5. Ragnos told him because of him the Sith would never die and he'd rightly earned the title. And I'd say inviting someone to join you and the others over Korriban's dominion is quite the esteem. Oh, yes, unlike Exar, Sidious is never seen using those artifacts

Oh again back to the artifact point ? Get it into your brain: If Sidious had artifacts, he would have used them. If he didn't use some, he didn't have them. It's as easy as that.

6. Once more: HE was connected to Yavin. I, Jedi pretty much confirmed that when corrsan destroyed his statue. And it didn't 'take' thousands of Jedi to stop him, he was crushed and overwhelmed by them, but he never matched them for power. and once more: he said himself he didn't necessarily understand the ritual.

I said that he was bound to Yavin.
How many Jedi did it take then to stop him. Do you think the entire Order was present because they thought they would able to stop him with a group of Jedi ? So the amount of Jedi needed to do that is unknown at best. And he didn't have to understand the ritual because - guess what - it worked.

7. he didn't go anywhere during the Clone wars certainly...that's three years compared to....fifty? He had his aids covering for him, too....I'm sure noone noticed him running off to Mustafar.

Huh ? I'm talking about a time when he was Senator for Naboo and had political stuff to do on Coruscant. So he couldn't have gone somewhere for years. And as I said: Even if he did the Ancient Sith Lords wouldn't have told him anything since he was nowhere near them at that point.

8. Nadd didn't enter into anything until Arca opened up his tomb.

Oh please. He had his spirit sealed in some artifacts and just waited.

And Exar couldn't exactly confront a spirit who stood well out of harm's reach.

Out of reach ? How far away is that exactly if you want to attack somebody with the force, eh ? Next planet ?

And Ragnos could command a shortsighted moron and a whining fool, big achievment. The Sith didn't exactly bat a hundred minus ragnos, Tulak and Ajunta back then.

And Sidious after his final defeat could exactly do: Nothing.

9. Proof he never went to those places before he killed Plageuis. the DS sorucebook said he learned the darkest secrets Korriban and the Sith had to offer there.

What reason would he have going to Korriban while still getting trained by Plagueis. In the time he killed Plagueis he clearly wasn't as powerful as his former master - otherwise he wouldn't have had to assassinate him while he was sleeping and that happened somewhere between his infancy and his 27th year (when he started training Maul). So he had maybe some years between mudering Plagueis and becoming Senator to do what he wanted. And again: Why would the Ancient Sith give their knowledge to that Sidious when he was in that low age and not "powerful" or "great" in any way ? Does the sourcebook say when he learned it ?

10. Can Sidious trick Ragnos, not show up and simply vaporize the planet? Yes. And Sidious will also be using knowledge before AND after ragnos's time....and how about this: Nothing to enchance their force ability. Nothing to increase or amplify it. Just them as they are without the toys.

You can't change the board rules just to have them fit your personal ideas and therefore Sidious gets tooled. Period. And since we've never seen Ragnos using "toys" either we have to say that he's still more powerful than Sadow with his toys and still Sidious gets his ass kicked. Too bad...

Originally posted by Borbarad
Who was never seen being present somewhere. And Sidious wasn't an extraordenary lightsaber duellists as we all have seen in ROTS and the DE comics. If he had knowledge about Tulak's fighting style he could have pretty much defeated anybody else in a lightsaber duel.

The "third most powerful" Sith is unknown since we only know that Sadow and Kressh were basically equals and the only people that had a chance to get the Dark Lord title meaning all others must have been some steps below them in terms of power. So I guess a [b]Jedi Master (maybe Council Member) like Memit might be able to take one of them. And yeah surprised by a group of Massassi. Think about that statement...

Blowing up a single world to stop Sadow from letting the entire empire get destroyed...yes, he would do that. And Ragnos couldn't expand the empire since that ship wouldn't enable him to control more that he already did. As I said: Sidious had at least 25,000 Star Destroyers, millions of other ships and some Death Star and couldn't control his own Empire.

This is an EU subforum and therefore the things expressed in the games count unless they contradict higher levels of canon. Is there anything in order to contradict the idea of Ragnos using a Sith sword ? No ? Thanks.

Oh again back to the artifact point ? Get it into your brain: If Sidious had artifacts, he would have used them. If he didn't use some, he didn't have them. It's as easy as that.

I said that he was bound to Yavin.
How many Jedi did it take then to stop him. Do you think the entire Order was present because they thought they would able to stop him with a group of Jedi ? So the amount of Jedi needed to do that is unknown at best. And he didn't have to understand the ritual because - guess what - it worked.

Huh ? I'm talking about a time when he was Senator for Naboo and had political stuff to do on Coruscant. So he couldn't have gone somewhere for years. And as I said: Even if he did the Ancient Sith Lords wouldn't have told him anything since he was nowhere near them at that point.

Oh please. He had his spirit sealed in some artifacts and just waited.

Out of reach ? How far away is that exactly if you want to attack somebody with the force, eh ? Next planet ?

And Sidious after his final defeat could exactly do: Nothing.

What reason would he have going to Korriban while still getting trained by Plagueis. In the time he killed Plagueis he clearly wasn't as powerful as his former master - otherwise he wouldn't have had to assassinate him while he was sleeping and that happened somewhere between his infancy and his 27th year (when he started training Maul). So he had maybe some years between mudering Plagueis and becoming Senator to do what he wanted. And again: Why would the Ancient Sith give their knowledge to that Sidious when he was in that low age and not "powerful" or "great" in any way ? Does the sourcebook say when he learned it ?

You can't change the board rules just to have them fit your personal ideas and therefore Sidious gets tooled. Period. And since we've never seen Ragnos using "toys" either we have to say that he's still more powerful than Sadow with his toys and still Sidious gets his ass kicked. Too bad... [/B]

1. He only dominates Luke at one point and kills three extremely skilled Jedi masters in seconds.

2. MEmit was a master now?

3. Maybe just maybe, Ragnos could've done something of the sort when he was alive?

4. Fine, I'll accept Ragnos's war sword. However, now, I'll be using other bits that don't contradict.

5. Dark Side sourcebook disproves you.

6. Spirit sealed in an artifact equates to manipulating a dynasty?

7. Well, unless Exar could fly and attack Nadd with a saber, I'd say floating in the air was out of reach.

8. Are we counting DE or ROTJ as Sidious's final defeat now?

9. For all we know, Plageuis took him to Korriban and Palpatine did PLENTY behind Plageuis's back. Maul for example.

10. Really now? why don't we give Sidious his artifacts then? And how do we know he was stronger than sadow with all his toys? Ragnos has never appeared when he was alive

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. He only dominates Luke at one point and kills three extremely skilled Jedi masters in seconds.

He dominates Luke at that point, yes. The same Luke that was "dominated" by the clone of some guy that was less powerful than Vader just a year before. Luke isn't the "force god" he's in the NJO series in the DE comics. I mean - what did he do ? He deflected blasterfire from an AT-AT...the deflection of energy was shown by Vader in ESB and Yoda in AotC and Yoda even managed to "absorb" force lightning. Anything special there ? And he hardly gained any lightsaber fighting experience in the years before. I mean: How many force users did he fight in lightsaber duels between ROTJ and DE ?

2. MEmit was a master now?

Well...he's the advisor of Empress Teta in a time when she's conquering the planets of her system. And when he levitates his own lightsaber in some scene you can see that it has some golden decoration on it - this is most likely electrum and only Council Members were allowed to use that as a decoration.

3. Maybe just maybe, Ragnos could've done something of the sort when he was alive?

What ? Expand the Sith Empire and keep it under control ? He could have expanded it only towards Republic space meaning he basically would have had to take the Republic itself in order to expand the Empire and while he might be able to take it he surely hasn't the people to keep it under control. There are just too many people having something against a "reign of the Dark Side" over the Galaxy (especially because of the normal methods Dark Siders use ruling their territory) and if Sidious with all his forces - from the Imperial Navy, over storm troopers to all the Dark Side practioneers he had - couldn't prevent his Empire from getting destroyed, I doubt that Ragnos will manage to keep the Sith Empire and the entire Republic space "peaceful" under his reign.

5. Dark Side sourcebook disproves you.

How ? It just said that Sidious learned some of the darkest secrets of Korriban being taught by the spirits of the Ancient Sith. Does it give any time ? Does it say "he learned everything" ?

6. Spirit sealed in an artifact equates to manipulating a dynasty?

He influenced the dynasty with his teachings. Arca Jeth after the fight with Queen Amanoa even tells Ulic that he has failed to sense the Dark Side dominating Iziz - seing that virtually all of Nadd's descendants were Sith Magicians.

7. Well, unless Exar could fly and attack Nadd with a saber, I'd say floating in the air was out of reach.

I wonder what a saber attack would do to a force spirit. Not that much I think. And it's pretty much clear that Kun needed Sadow's amulet to defeat Nadd otherwise he had many chances to do that before. And when have we ever seen the spirit of an ancient Sith Lord getting exterminated by the use of "weapons" only ?

8. Are we counting DE or ROTJ as Sidious's final defeat now?

I consider Han Solo shooting him in the back the "final defeat". Did he show up again from that point on ?

9. For all we know, Plageuis took him to Korriban and Palpatine did PLENTY behind Plageuis's back. Maul for example.

Eh ? Where does it say that he was training Maul behind Plagueis back ? There can only be two Sith at any time and Sidious sticked to that rule pretty much which is why he wanted Anakin to kill Dooku and later Luke should kill Vader. That's following the "rule of two".

10. Really now? why don't we give Sidious his artifacts then? And how do we know he was stronger than sadow with all his toys? Ragnos has never appeared when he was alive

That's ridiculous. We don't know if Ragnos did have artifacts or not - yet, what would that artifacts do ? The only purpose Sadow's amulet for example had was channeling the emotions of his user to create that nice "beams" of force energy able to kill people, spirits and rip through massive walls. Does it something about "boosting force powers up" ? As far as I remember it doesn't.
So what do you want ? Giving Sidious artifacts when you can't even prove that he had some - then using them against the Sith Lord without even knowing what they would do ? That would do what exactly when Ragnos had probably greater knowledge, greater artifacts and more combat experience ?

The only thing you would archieve doing that would be throw more unknowns into the debate (both opponents power level without artifacts, both with artifacts, what artifacts did they use or had access to) and in the end the guy with more experience, more fighting skills and more knowledge about Sith Alchemy, Sith Magic and the Dark Side - that being Ragnos - would still be the winner.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He dominates Luke at that point, yes. The same Luke that was "dominated" by the clone of some guy that was less powerful than Vader just a year before. Luke isn't the "force god" he's in the NJO series in the DE comics. I mean - what did he do ? He deflected blasterfire from an AT-AT...the deflection of energy was shown by Vader in ESB and Yoda in AotC and Yoda even managed to "absorb" force lightning. Anything special there ? And he hardly gained any lightsaber fighting experience in the years before. I mean: How many force users did he fight in lightsaber duels between ROTJ and DE ?

Well...he's the advisor of Empress Teta in a time when she's conquering the planets of her system. And when he levitates his own lightsaber in some scene you can see that it has some golden decoration on it - this is most likely electrum and only Council Members were allowed to use that as a decoration.

What ? Expand the Sith Empire and keep it under control ? He could have expanded it only towards Republic space meaning he basically would have had to take the Republic itself in order to expand the Empire and while he might be able to take it he surely hasn't the people to keep it under control. There are just too many people having something against a "reign of the Dark Side" over the Galaxy (especially because of the normal methods Dark Siders use ruling their territory) and if Sidious with all his forces - from the Imperial Navy, over storm troopers to all the Dark Side practioneers he had - couldn't prevent his Empire from getting destroyed, I doubt that Ragnos will manage to keep the Sith Empire and the entire Republic space "peaceful" under his reign.

How ? It just said that Sidious learned some of the darkest secrets of Korriban being taught by the spirits of the Ancient Sith. Does it give any time ? Does it say "he learned [b]everything" ?

He influenced the dynasty with his teachings. Arca Jeth after the fight with Queen Amanoa even tells Ulic that he has failed to sense the Dark Side dominating Iziz - seing that virtually all of Nadd's descendants were Sith Magicians.

I wonder what a saber attack would do to a force spirit. Not that much I think. And it's pretty much clear that Kun needed Sadow's amulet to defeat Nadd otherwise he had many chances to do that before. And when have we ever seen the spirit of an ancient Sith Lord getting exterminated by the use of "weapons" only ?

I consider Han Solo shooting him in the back the "final defeat". Did he show up again from that point on ?

Eh ? Where does it say that he was training Maul behind Plagueis back ? There can only be two Sith at any time and Sidious sticked to that rule pretty much which is why he wanted Anakin to kill Dooku and later Luke should kill Vader. That's following the "rule of two".

That's ridiculous. We don't know if Ragnos did have artifacts or not - yet, what would that artifacts do ? The only purpose Sadow's amulet for example had was channeling the emotions of his user to create that nice "beams" of force energy able to kill people, spirits and rip through massive walls. Does it something about "boosting force powers up" ? As far as I remember it doesn't.
So what do you want ? Giving Sidious artifacts when you can't even prove that he had some - then using them against the Sith Lord without even knowing what they would do ? That would do what exactly when Ragnos had probably greater knowledge, greater artifacts and more combat experience ?

The only thing you would archieve doing that would be throw more unknowns into the debate (both opponents power level without artifacts, both with artifacts, what artifacts did they use or had access to) and in the end the guy with more experience, more fighting skills and more knowledge about Sith Alchemy, Sith Magic and the Dark Side - that being Ragnos - would still be the winner. [/B]

1. Luke is already able to create massive illusions, create shields to stop AT AT blaster fire while he focuses and crush an AT AT's head, not to mention ease the landing of an out of control star destroyer...

2. I'll remind you in that era, the Jedi are already helping dictators crush secessionists....and Memit and Odan were good friends and close there....Odann was still a padawan. Memit, around his ae and skill?

3. Unlike Sidious, apparently, Ragnos could blow up stars at will....I say apparently as this is devil's advocate.

4. It says he refined and perfected them, so take that how you will.

5. That doesn't mean Nadd was hanging around, whispering in ears...

6. When would Exar have the chance to kill Nadd beforehand? Like I said, Nadd got careless and died for it.

7. He hasn't shown up again, no...however, he's got all the Jedi locking him away in the Dark Side, I'd say that's quite the blocker there. And Ragnos hasn't appeared since Jaden beat him, Nadd hasn't been around for a bit, either...or Sadow...

8. in the New Essential Chronology, it's clear cut he trained Maul behind Plageuis's back...it's quoted on Wookiepedia I believe.

9. How would ragnos have more combat experience? Who says Ragnos knew more about the alchemy and dark side? Hell, in DE, PAlpatine is described as an avatar of the Dark Side. Unlike Palpatine, Ragnos could rest easy in his position...the Ancient Sith weren't exactly vicious backstabbers....Garu, or example was a loyal friend to another Sith lord on the council. Simus had true and genuine affection for Naga. Ragnos had true respect for Simus, seen by him helping Simus to live on....duels were lawfully declared...

I just wanted to ask: When did she ever say Revan got the holocron?

Exile: What made him so great?

Kreia: That is unknown. But supposedly he created a holocron to teach his technique to other Sith. The holocron would have been laid to rest within his tomb. Unfortunately, Tulak Horde's tomb was the first to be penetrated by the graverobbers of the New Sith Order. If the holocron has survived, I doubt anyone living knows would know it's location.

Ragnos > Luke > Sidious
Conclusion: Ragnos wtfpwns sidious
Oh lightsnake...you do see not many people support you, there hasn't been once where you dont think the ancient sith could beat any NJO jedi, you're making up alot of bullshit, if pretty much all the ancient sith feared Ragnos...he has power unless his so smart, the sith can't do without him, which was not the case...if the sith didnt attack him a half-breed on his death bed...what does that mean? He is powerful, more powerful than any sith after him...eg Sun Tzu, invented the art of war...it went on through the ages...now noone can properly use it to the great same effect, that means even if sidious had the same knowledge, it doesnt mean he could best the person who created it, oh and btw...a sithlord like ragnos, would keep secrets that he wouldn't reveal...such is the way of the sith!

One more thing - as usual you use feats to demonstrate power, ok so you're saying anyone that can cause massive destruction, is the most powerful?

Oh btw...from force feats...yes luke developed alot.. but that was from his raw force potentail...but how bout lightsabers? did he invent a better on? no. what about his own style? did he get one? no

Luke's only managed to outclass anyone he's fought with a saber...and incorporated styles to his own, he's dominated numerous darksiders, reived an order and done incredile Force feats and is now widely considered the strongest force user ever. Ragnos is strong, one of the two strongest Sith ever doubtlessly, but he's taking on LUKE

Luke's only managed to outclass anyone he's fought with a saber...

Which is why he has a fake hand, and why he submitted to Sidious when he knew he couldn't defeat him. What a sabergod.

and incorporated styles to his own

What styles? Indeed, how could he know any complete styles from the previous generations, considering that all the jedi are dead?

, he's dominated numerous darksiders

So he just... walked all over all opposition? And this translates to what now?

, reived an order

Feat wars. This has NOTHING to do with anything.

and done incredile Force feats

Lots of people have done incredible Force feats, especially considering that "incredible" is a subjective term and proves nothing.

and is now widely considered the strongest force user ever

Where's this from? Lemme guess- general concensus on TFN?

Let me put it to you this way- since when has "widely considered" ever been proof of anything? Did you take a debate class, I wonder? Do you understand the meaning behind "Appeal to Majority"?

. Ragnos is strong, one of the two strongest Sith ever doubtlessly, but he's taking on LUKE

This is ridiculous bias here. Ragnos lived for over a hundred years, most of that ruling over (unchallenged) by an empire full of ambitious, deceptive, and powerful Sith Lords, who's toys and trinkets are enough to make people like Kun and Sidious uber. The fact that he wasn't slain, imprisoned, destroyed, or even ****ed with on his deathbed makes him a lot more impressive than Luke, and most certainly with more experience in the Force and against other Force users.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Luke is already able to create massive illusions, create shields to stop AT AT blaster fire while he focuses and crush an AT AT's head, not to mention ease the landing of an out of control star destroyer...

If told you on numerous occassions that the creation of illusions doesn't require a great amount of force power the way Luke is using it. Read the Black Fleet trilogy. The stopping of blasterfire was demonstrated by Vader in ESB and Vader is 80 % of Sidious according to Lucas himself. Crushing the head of an AT AT doesn't seem to be very impressive and "ease the landing" of a star destroyer also doesn't.

Luke a year later wasn't able to protect himself against Kyp and Kun attacking him, he was later stalemated by Desann not to mention that he nearly got his force powers drained off in "Chrystal Star". So he's nowhere near his NJO level at that point. He didn't advance greatly from ROTJ on until the point he founded the Academy.

2. I'll remind you in that era, the Jedi are already helping dictators crush secessionists....and Memit and Odan were good friends and close there....Odann was still a padawan. Memit, around his ae and skill?

The point is that Memit is carrying an electrum saber and that is only allowed to members of the High Council. And you think they'd sent a Padawan to be Empress Teta's advisor ? Since when are Padawans sent on missions - especially importan one's like that - without their master. Memit was at least a knight and his saber indicates that he was a master. And since when do age or friendship to a Padawan indicate the status of another Jedi ?

3. Unlike Sidious, apparently, Ragnos could blow up stars at will....I say apparently as this is devil's advocate.

Sidious had the technology to blow up stars and Tarkin in ANH demonstrated that the Empire would use that on peaceful planets like Alderaan just for "demonstration". Still the fear created by those military power wasn't enough to keep the Galaxy under control. So I don't see any difference if somebody can blow up stars with personal power or with technology - the effect is the same and as we have seen that effect isn't enough.

4. It says he refined and perfected them, so take that how you will.

I was asking "when" he did learn them and if it says he learned "everything". Not if Sidious refined and perfected something.

5. That doesn't mean Nadd was hanging around, whispering in ears...

No. But he did that later with the Keto's and Exar Kun. And when Kun destroys him finally it even says that Nadd "reaches out to others he had led down the dark path". So obviously he did influence other people.

6. When would Exar have the chance to kill Nadd beforehand? Like I said, Nadd got careless and died for it.

How was he getting careless ? Kun couldn't kill him before he had Sadow's amulet no matter if Nadd protected himself or not. The only other complete extermination of a Sith Lords spirit (Kun's own) was done by the combined forces of Luke's students, Luke himself and Vodo.

7. He hasn't shown up again, no...however, he's got all the Jedi locking him away in the Dark Side, I'd say that's quite the blocker there. And Ragnos hasn't appeared since Jaden beat him, Nadd hasn't been around for a bit, either...or Sadow...

Nadd's spirit was destroyed and he was around 400 years after his actual death. Ragnos was around 5,000 years after his actual death when you'd like to say that Sidious talked to him on Korriban and he survived the confrontation with Jaden as we've seen him going back to his tomb.

8. in the New Essential Chronology, it's clear cut he trained Maul behind Plageuis's back...it's quoted on Wookiepedia I believe.

And is it mentioned somewhere when he did kill Plagueis exactly ?

9. How would ragnos have more combat experience? Who says Ragnos knew more about the alchemy and dark side? Hell, in DE, PAlpatine is described as an avatar of the Dark Side. Unlike Palpatine, Ragnos could rest easy in his position...the Ancient Sith weren't exactly vicious backstabbers....Garu, or example was a loyal friend to another Sith lord on the council. Simus had true and genuine affection for Naga. Ragnos had true respect for Simus, seen by him helping Simus to live on....duels were lawfully declared...

How did you think Ragnos get were he was ? He beheaded Simus in a duel and in an Empire where "the strongest shall rule" there is only one way to the top and this is fighting. It doesn't matter if they were "backstabbers" or "honourable warriors". What matters is that they did fight their way to the top (otherwise I don't see the point why Ragnos had to challenge Simus in a duel to become the Dark Lord or why Sadow and Kressh were duelling for that title).
And where does it say that this prevents them from being friends ? The Sith Lords are already on the highest positions of power and if they have no chance to become the Dark Lord (which was true under Ragnos, and true under Sadow / Kressh) I don't see why they shouldn't be friends or loyal to others. And where does it say that nobody ever challenged Ragnos or tried to do it ? Kreia even tells in KotoR II that he dominated his "oponents"...

And Ragnos would certainly know more about alchemy than Sidious. He lived at the time where it was commonly used and he ruled over people who could create stuff to kill force users and blast walls or entire planets away (Sadow). Not to mention Ragnos sceptre which was powerful enough to turn a bunch of nobodies into Dark Jedi (meaning it creates force users) and toss Jedi around like ragdolls (or even kill them). Ever seen Sidious using some of that ? And those were Sith alchemy skills which isn't really "the dark side".

1. I'd call creating illusionary fleets quite the feat as it took Sadow a lot of power and energy to do it, along with a whole cache of crystals...and why has noone else eased the landing of an out of control star destroyer? Why has noone else destroyed war machines with the force? And has Vader ever blocked a huge storm of blaster fire, coupled with blocking AND reflecting an AT AT's shots?

STALEMATED Desann? Luke has a history of never fighting seriously against his ex-students and Desann pulled a trick and ran away...a trick that didn't effect Luke at all...and he was nearly drained by Waru, a being who fed off the Force...

2. Since when do electrum sabers only belong to members of the high council? I didn't know this so please elaborate. Memit and Odan were also exceptionally informal to one another and Memit and Odan had Ooroo looking after them, too.

3. Tarkin didn't exactly vaporize a combatanant planet....the Rebellion was in league before Sidious had the Death Star made.

4. He reached out to the Ketos, obviously. Point is, he wasn't influencing a throne directly for 400 years.

5. And it took a gang of padawans to trap and send Kun into hysterical rage...Kun was unable to destroy Luke's body as well.

6. Nadd'd mostly lain dormant until that ear of his death or a bit before....and Jedi Academy takes place over 10 years after ROTJ....DE takes place six years after...

7. A bit over a decade or so before TPM is when Plageuis supposedly died. Palpatine was engaged in a 'pet project' in Maul behind Plageuis's back.

8. My point is: Duels were lawfully declared at the time, betrayal was not the norm. Even Naga seemed a bit distressed over killing Simus. and consider this: Nadd stormed out of the Sith Order because the reigning DL was still young by standards....why not challenge a younger lord and be done with it? Why not return and challenge him (I didn't make this up, I KNOW the plot inconsistencies here...

9. If stuff could be created to kill Force users, then the Sith would have used it instantly on Coruscant, and Sadow could've simply destroyed Koros Major...

And yes, we've seen Sidious do that, when he imbued Tedryn Sha and Xecr Nist with the Dark Side into instantly full fledged warriors. Sidious did that with just the Dark Side and stands to reason he was learning some of them alchemy skills...he did create a few nasty creatures.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. I'd call creating illusionary fleets quite the feat as it took Sadow a lot of power and energy to do it, along with a whole cache of crystals...and why has noone else eased the landing of an out of control star destroyer? Why has noone else destroyed war machines with the force? And has Vader ever blocked a huge storm of blaster fire, coupled with blocking AND reflecting an AT AT's shots?

The thing that took Sadow a "lot of power" (where by the way...he's just sitting in the meditation sphere) was creating an entire army on Coruscant. The point is that those illusions could really "fight" as if they were real. Luke basically created copies of ship that already existed and when he covered the "Vagabound" and the entire planet he didn't need to focus on it after that. So how does that need any power from him ? And we've seen people far inferior to Luke being able to create entire landscapes with illusions (without having to focus on it) or make themselves invisible (also without concentration needed). So obviously Luke isn't doing the same stuff Sadow did - otherwise shooting Naga's meditation sphere wouldn't have had any effect.

STALEMATED Desann? Luke has a history of never fighting seriously against his ex-students and Desann pulled a trick and ran away...a trick that didn't effect Luke at all...and he was nearly drained by Waru, a being who fed off the Force...

Desann still managed to escape and Luke - if he's as powerful as you want him to be in that time - should have been able to stop him. And he wasn't drained by Waru, he was drained by the chrystal star nearby.

2. Since when do electrum sabers only belong to members of the high council? I didn't know this so please elaborate. Memit and Odan were also exceptionally informal to one another and Memit and Odan had Ooroo looking after them, too.

Since I don't have my SW literature at hand at the moment I can't tell you were that is mentioned. But if you don't thrust me you can go to wookieepedia or other sides like that and search for "electrum lightsaber". Wookieepedia states:

"Electrum Lightsaber — A lightsaber with a hilt forged from gold-like electrum was often called "electrum lightsaber". The electrum finish gave the lightsaber a magestic, regal appearance and in the last days of the Old Jedi Order, golden and electrum lightsabers were reserved for members of the Jedi Council. Mace Windu's and Darth Sidious's lightsabers are examples of such kind."

Which is also logical. The Jedi aren't allowed to posess anything an electrum is an alloy of gold and silver with changing amounts of that metals in it. Considering that the electrum used on Sidious / Maces and Memits lightsaber almost is entirely golden that means it would have a pretty high amount of gold in it and therefore it would be quite expensive.

So unless Memit was a hidden Sith Lord he must have been a high council member. And I don't see the Jedi sending a Padawan as an advisor to Empress Teta.

3. Tarkin didn't exactly vaporize a combatanant planet....the Rebellion was in league before Sidious had the Death Star made.

The Empire's navy forces were able to destroy the entire life on planets by melting the crust of a planet to several kilometres of death (Base Delta Zero) even without the Death Star.

4. He reached out to the Ketos, obviously. Point is, he wasn't influencing a throne directly for 400 years.

No...the point is that he was influencing people 400 years after his defeat and Sidious, once out of his body, did never return.

5. And it took a gang of padawans to trap and send Kun into hysterical rage...Kun was unable to destroy Luke's body as well.

Where did they "trap" Kun or send him into a "hysterical rage"? Kun was trying to use Streen to kill Luke and then the other people showed up. Hardly a "trap". Then Kun proceeded and force choked them and Streen saved them by blowing air into their lungs. Then those "padawans" focused their force powers, had Luke's and Vodo's spirits helping them and then exterminated Kun.
So...without the little accident of other people showing up Luke would have been dead. And without Streens unique ability to control the air all of Luke students would have died too.

The point is that Kun didn't have the power to exterminate Nadd before getting Sadow's amulet.

6. Nadd'd mostly lain dormant until that ear of his death or a bit before....and Jedi Academy takes place over 10 years after ROTJ....DE takes place six years after...

DE takes place in 10 ABY, Empire's End in 11 ABY - and that's the same year Luke establishes his academy on Yavin 4. The events shown in the Jedi Academy series happen in 12 ABY. And I don't see what this has to do with the fact that Ragnos spirit went back to his sarcophagus after Jaden defeated him ?

7. A bit over a decade or so before TPM is when Plageuis supposedly died. Palpatine was engaged in a 'pet project' in Maul behind Plageuis's back.

You really want to tell me that Sidious was still trained by Plagueis while being Senator of Naboo which he became 20 years before TPM ? And it's stated that he started training Maul 25 years before TPM...really...I don't see Sidious becoming a Senator and training a new apprentice "behind Plagueis back" for 15 years...

8. My point is: Duels were lawfully declared at the time, betrayal was not the norm. Even Naga seemed a bit distressed over killing Simus. and consider this: Nadd stormed out of the Sith Order because the reigning DL was still young by standards....why not challenge a younger lord and be done with it? Why not return and challenge him (I didn't make this up, I KNOW the plot inconsistencies here...

What has "betrayal" to do with this fight ? We're discussion Ragnos vs Sidious in a straightforward fight here and not "who's the better betrayer".
And Nadd did what ? He suggested that he could never have become Dark Lord because some Sith Lord must be alive somewhere. Challenge a younger Sith Lord when Sadow was still alive ? What would have done that ? And "young" doesn't mean "not powerful"...and young by what standarts ? Sith standarts ? So young would be what ? 50 years ? 60 ?

9. If stuff could be created to kill Force users, then the Sith would have used it instantly on Coruscant, and Sadow could've simply destroyed Koros Major...

Oh come on. You've seen that Exar Kun's amulet created by Sadow was able to kill Odan Urr, Nadd and it blasted holes into massive temple walls not to mention throwing Jedi around like ragdolls. And Sadow could have destroyed Korus Minor...do I have to remind you of his ship ? Really...

And yes, we've seen Sidious do that, when he imbued Tedryn Sha and Xecr Nist with the Dark Side into instantly full fledged warriors. Sidious did that with just the Dark Side and stands to reason he was learning some of them alchemy skills...he did create a few nasty creatures.

A "few nasty creatures" ? Did you see that nice little thingy Kun was fighting ? And Tedryn-Sha was so uber powerful that he had to use a blaster to kill Jem Ysanna and was immediatly sliced in half by Leia. Come on...

Originally posted by Borbarad
The thing that took Sadow a "lot of power" (where by the way...he's just sitting in the meditation sphere) was creating an entire army on Coruscant. The point is that those illusions could really "fight" as if they were real. Luke basically created copies of ship that already existed and when he covered the "Vagabound" and the entire planet he didn't need to focus on it after that. So how does that need any power from him ? And we've seen people far inferior to Luke being able to create entire landscapes with illusions (without having to focus on it) or make themselves invisible (also without concentration needed). So obviously Luke isn't doing the same stuff Sadow did - otherwise shooting Naga's meditation sphere wouldn't have had any effect.

Desann still managed to escape and Luke - if he's as powerful as you want him to be in that time - should have been able to stop him. And he wasn't drained by Waru, he was drained by the chrystal star nearby.

Since I don't have my SW literature at hand at the moment I can't tell you were that is mentioned. But if you don't thrust me you can go to wookieepedia or other sides like that and search for "electrum lightsaber". Wookieepedia states:

"Electrum Lightsaber — A lightsaber with a hilt forged from gold-like electrum was often called "electrum lightsaber". The electrum finish gave the lightsaber a magestic, regal appearance and in the last days of the Old Jedi Order, golden and electrum lightsabers were reserved for members of the Jedi Council. Mace Windu's and Darth Sidious's lightsabers are examples of such kind."

Which is also logical. The Jedi aren't allowed to posess anything an electrum is an alloy of gold and silver with changing amounts of that metals in it. Considering that the electrum used on Sidious / Maces and Memits lightsaber almost is entirely golden that means it would have a pretty high amount of gold in it and therefore it would be quite expensive.

So unless Memit was a hidden Sith Lord he must have been a high council member. And I don't see the Jedi sending a Padawan as an [b]advisor to Empress Teta.

The Empire's navy forces were able to destroy the entire life on planets by melting the crust of a planet to several kilometres of death (Base Delta Zero) even without the Death Star.

No...the point is that he was influencing people 400 years after his defeat and Sidious, once out of his body, did never return.

Where did they "trap" Kun or send him into a "hysterical rage"? Kun was trying to use Streen to kill Luke and then the other people showed up. Hardly a "trap". Then Kun proceeded and force choked them and Streen saved them by blowing air into their lungs. Then those "padawans" focused their force powers, had Luke's and Vodo's spirits helping them and then exterminated Kun.
So...without the little accident of other people showing up Luke would have been dead. And without Streens unique ability to control the air all of Luke students would have died too.

The point is that Kun didn't have the power to exterminate Nadd before getting Sadow's amulet.

DE takes place in 10 ABY, Empire's End in 11 ABY - and that's the same year Luke establishes his academy on Yavin 4. The events shown in the Jedi Academy series happen in 12 ABY. And I don't see what this has to do with the fact that Ragnos spirit went back to his sarcophagus after Jaden defeated him ?

You really want to tell me that Sidious was still trained by Plagueis while being Senator of Naboo which he became 20 years before TPM ? And it's stated that he started training Maul 25 years before TPM...really...I don't see Sidious becoming a Senator and training a new apprentice "behind Plagueis back" for 15 years...

What has "betrayal" to do with this fight ? We're discussion Ragnos vs Sidious in a straightforward fight here and not "who's the better betrayer".
And Nadd did what ? He suggested that he could never have become Dark Lord because some Sith Lord must be alive somewhere. Challenge a younger Sith Lord when Sadow was still alive ? What would have done that ? And "young" doesn't mean "not powerful"...and young by what standarts ? Sith standarts ? So young would be what ? 50 years ? 60 ?

Oh come on. You've seen that Exar Kun's amulet created by Sadow was able to kill Odan Urr, Nadd and it blasted holes into massive temple walls not to mention throwing Jedi around like ragdolls. And Sadow could have destroyed Korus Minor...do I have to remind you of his ship ? Really...

A "few nasty creatures" ? Did you see that nice little thingy Kun was fighting ? And Tedryn-Sha was so uber powerful that he had to use a blaster to kill Jem Ysanna and was immediatly sliced in half by Leia. Come on... [/B]

1. what's there to support the illusions Sadow made were real? Who made these landscapes and went invisible?

2. The Crystal Star was an anomaly in the Force as it was, I believe. Luke's history has shown he doesn't actively pursue ex-students either...Kueller, Brakiss...

3. I do trust you....however, Memit did not live in the 'last days' of the Old Order.

4. Yeah, but actively damaging a planet so badly, is nothing compared to the sheer terror something like the Death Star could instill: Instantaneous, no survivors, unbeatable etc.

5. However, Sidious got involved back in things immediately....it took Nadd one year after he came back to die...

6. I was more referring to Kun's failure to control students at the end as his hysterical rage...It's been a while since I read JA....I haven't had a desire to reread that tripe.

7. Of course Kun didn't have the power to finish Nadd without the amulet...

8. My point is: Ragnos's little start in happened quite a few years after Empire's End.

9. Believe me, Nai, I KNOW how ridiculous it sounds, but there it is....he was training Maul for a very long time behind Plageuis's back and learning what he could from Plageuis and a lot on the side....I wasn't fond of these developments myself.

10. Yeah, young by Sith standards was what was used: And Naga was thought dead. He was dormant on yavin. Here's the gargantuan continuity issue:
In Dark Lord, it is outright stated Nadd left out of fury because he couldn't be Dark Lord as the other was still alive, in the Holocron. It's supported elsewhere as well...this brings to mind massive errors. Don't forget, Naga was noone's Lord except some Massassi by that point.

11. He only tossed Sylvar once and Odann was ancient as it was. Hell, he was hardly ever considered a great fighter and hated fighting and war...and I honestly don't consider killing Nadd THAT great a feat

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. what's there to support the illusions Sadow made were real? Who made these landscapes and went invisible?

The Fallanassi in the Black Fleet trilogy. One made herself invisible just in front of Luke and another created an entire fleet of illusions. And both weren't the greatest force users exactly.

3. I do trust you....however, Memit did not live in the 'last days' of the Old Order.

That is just mentioned because Mace Windu wears the only lightsaber with an electrum hilt in the films. Still it's pretty much illogical that a Padawan - who didn't create his own lightsaber yet - would have an lightsaber with electrum decorations on it. So Memit would have been at least a knight although the material points to a Master / Council Member. Not to mention that I doubt they'd sent a normal Knight to advise Empress Teta.

4. Yeah, but actively damaging a planet so badly, is nothing compared to the sheer terror something like the Death Star could instill: Instantaneous, no survivors, unbeatable etc.

Base Delta Zero would have the same effect...unless you can name a planet that would be able to provide enough ships / firepower to take on the entire Imperial Navy.

5. However, Sidious got involved back in things immediately....it took Nadd one year after he came back to die...

Sidious still needed a host body were the ancient Sith were all just coming back as force spirits.

6. I was more referring to Kun's failure to control students at the end as his hysterical rage...It's been a while since I read JA....I haven't had a desire to reread that tripe.

How did he fail ? He just didn't try and considering that all of Luke's students gathered he didn't have the chance to manipulate them one by one. And still - as a 4,000 year old spirit - he nearly managed to kill them all at once.

7. Of course Kun didn't have the power to finish Nadd without the amulet...

Err...he possibly had the power but he didn't have the "weapon". Logically a normal force attack won't do much to a spirit and the same counts for a lightsaber attack.

8. My point is: Ragnos's little start in happened quite a few years after Empire's End.

Where's the point there ?

9. Believe me, Nai, I KNOW how ridiculous it sounds, but there it is....he was training Maul for a very long time behind Plageuis's back and learning what he could from Plageuis and a lot on the side....I wasn't fond of these developments myself.

We know that he didn't learn everything from Plageuis because he basically admits this himself in ROTS. And a lot on the side ? So he was still training under Plagueis, training Maul at the same time and he was Senator of Naboo meaning he could leave Coruscant on very rare ocassions only ? Yet he did somehow manage to gather a great part of knowledge from the Ancient Sith and practice it - while being busy with the other stuff ?

10. Yeah, young by Sith standards was what was used: And Naga was thought dead. He was dormant on yavin. Here's the gargantuan continuity issue:
In Dark Lord, it is outright stated Nadd left out of fury because he couldn't be Dark Lord as the other was still alive, in the Holocron. It's supported elsewhere as well...this brings to mind massive errors. Don't forget, Naga was noone's Lord except some Massassi by that point.

If the Dark Lord was young by Sith standarts he could still have been older than Nadd himself at that point and seeing that Nadd basically didn't know anything about the Dark Side before meeting Sadow on Yavin 4 I doubt he could have beaten a real Sith Lord in direct confrontation.

11. He only tossed Sylvar once and Odann was ancient as it was. Hell, he was hardly ever considered a great fighter and hated fighting and war...and I honestly don't consider killing Nadd THAT great a feat

He tossed Sylvar once and did that effortless and considering he could rip massive walls into pieces with such a handmovement she was pretty lucky that he didn't just kill her the same way he killed Odan Urr. And Odan was involved in the Great Hyperspace War and somehow managed to get a Sith holocron - so I don't see him being a weak fighter even if he hated fighting and war.
And Nadd's spirit helped Ommin to capture Arca Jeth, keep him as a prisoner and later killed Ommin after Ulic cut through the King's exosceleton. So Nadd could keep a very powerful Jedi Master as a prisoner and destroy a quite powerful Sith Magician quite effortless and you call it "not that great" to kill his spirit ?

And still this is Ragnos vs Sidious. Can you tell me how Sidious should be able to win that ? He's using stuff that Ragnos already knew, Ragnos has most likely access to knowledge / powers / alchemic products that Sidious has never seen in his life including all knowledge that was lost on Malachor V. So Ragnos could theoretically instakill Sidious in god knows how many ways (amulet similar to that of Sadow, his sceptre, the power Kreia did use on the 3 Jedi Masters etc.) while Sidious most powerful weapon is a force storm that can go out of control if somebody attacks him through the force while he's using it. Now Ragnos is more than a century old and lived in the highest point of Sith Alchemy and Sith Magic and ruled the most powerful people for more than a century. Not to mention that he has a great advantage on Sidious when it comes to physical power. So how would Sidious win that fight exactly ?

QED QED....

Sidious has no chance, period.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The Fallanassi in the Black Fleet trilogy. One made herself invisible just in front of Luke and another created an entire fleet of illusions. And both weren't the greatest force users exactly.

That is just mentioned because Mace Windu wears the only lightsaber with an electrum hilt in the films. Still it's pretty much illogical that a Padawan - who didn't create his own lightsaber yet - would have an lightsaber with electrum decorations on it. So Memit would have been at least a knight although the material points to a Master / Council Member. Not to mention that I doubt they'd sent a normal Knight to advise Empress Teta.

Base Delta Zero would have the same effect...unless you can name a planet that would be able to provide enough ships / firepower to take on the entire Imperial Navy.

Sidious still needed a host body were the ancient Sith were all just coming back as force spirits.

How did he fail ? He just didn't try and considering that all of Luke's students gathered he didn't have the chance to manipulate them one by one. And still - as a 4,000 year old spirit - he nearly managed to kill them all at once.

Err...he possibly had the power but he didn't have the "weapon". Logically a normal force attack won't do much to a spirit and the same counts for a lightsaber attack.

Where's the point there ?

We [b]know that he didn't learn everything from Plageuis because he basically admits this himself in ROTS. And a lot on the side ? So he was still training under Plagueis, training Maul at the same time and he was Senator of Naboo meaning he could leave Coruscant on very rare ocassions only ? Yet he did somehow manage to gather a great part of knowledge from the Ancient Sith and practice it - while being busy with the other stuff ?

If the Dark Lord was young by Sith standarts he could still have been older than Nadd himself at that point and seeing that Nadd basically didn't know anything about the Dark Side before meeting Sadow on Yavin 4 I doubt he could have beaten a real Sith Lord in direct confrontation.

He tossed Sylvar once and did that effortless and considering he could rip massive walls into pieces with such a handmovement she was pretty lucky that he didn't just kill her the same way he killed Odan Urr. And Odan was involved in the Great Hyperspace War and somehow managed to get a Sith holocron - so I don't see him being a weak fighter even if he hated fighting and war.
And Nadd's spirit helped Ommin to capture Arca Jeth, keep him as a prisoner and later killed Ommin after Ulic cut through the King's exosceleton. So Nadd could keep a very powerful Jedi Master as a prisoner and destroy a quite powerful Sith Magician quite effortless and you call it "not that great" to kill his spirit ?

And still this is Ragnos vs Sidious. Can you tell me how Sidious should be able to win that ? He's using stuff that Ragnos already knew, Ragnos has most likely access to knowledge / powers / alchemic products that Sidious has never seen in his life including all knowledge that was lost on Malachor V. So Ragnos could theoretically instakill Sidious in god knows how many ways (amulet similar to that of Sadow, his sceptre, the power Kreia did use on the 3 Jedi Masters etc.) while Sidious most powerful weapon is a force storm that can go out of control if somebody attacks him through the force while he's using it. Now Ragnos is more than a century old and lived in the highest point of Sith Alchemy and Sith Magic and ruled the most powerful people for more than a century. Not to mention that he has a great advantage on Sidious when it comes to physical power. So how would Sidious win that fight exactly ? [/B]

Janus, would you please stop interjecting random statements like that in the MIDDLE of a debate?

1. I'll reread the Black Fleet trilogy....however, that does sort of damage Naga Sadow's credibility.

2. Memit had Odann and Ooroo by him as well. And Memit was an advisor, not a war leader. By the by, found proof on another issue: It specifically says a few knights are all that leads the fight on Coruscant against Naga.

3. Like hell, the Imperial Navy was an incredible force.

4. The Ancient Sith weren't exactly affecting anything physically without hosts and a bevy of Sith energy around. And who says Sidious actually NEEDED a Clone Body?

5. At the very end, when Kun tries to manipulate/turn them...he fails rather miserably. And considering it took a group of PADAWANS to trap him...

6. Possibly had the power? Kun didn't really show himself as anything remotely resembling a powerhouse until the amulet and the amulet did the work, NOT Kun

7. To counter the idea that Ragnos's return was before DE?

8. You think I don't notice how little sense it makes? And Plageuis knowing what Palp said he does is conjecture and rumor at best. It makes little sense, it's ridiculous, but it's there, spot on there.

9. He'd already been apart of the Order and apparently a candidate for the DL position.

10. When did he 'rip massive walls to pieces' And considering Odan was near dead anyways....the man was over a thousand and NOT exactly skilled in offensive means. There's no proof it could have or would have worked on Sylvar. Otherwise, he could simply have used it on Vodo, or on Ulic, or on Ood. And Ood didn't 'fight', he sat back, failed to help and watched Ooroo die. He also found the holocron aboard an empty Sith ship. And Arca was near the edge of unconciousness thanks to being totally caught off guard by Nadd AND Ommin. And Ommin was dead by the time Nadd took his soul.

11. Ragnos already knew the new things implemented by Bane's order? The mysticism of Plageuis? The Sith lords preceeding Ragnos? Who the hell says any of those 'instakills' could work whatsoever? If they could, Ragnos would've used them on Simus and Naga on Ludo. And no, Sidious's force storm was HARDLY his strongest ability, I'd wager that as sucking a planet of life and energy. And the SKywalkers PLUS Anakin Solo's already raw force power were against him. Sidious has the power and knowledge necessary to take Ragnos on and isn't stupid to engage Ragnos in a saber duel. I'd say he could win by tearing the place to pieces with the Force or draining Ragnos, or pinching off a nerve in his brain.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. I'll reread the Black Fleet trilogy....however, that does sort of damage Naga Sadow's credibility.

No it doesn't because you just don't see the difference between Sadow's illusions and that other people created. Illusions created by other people were either massive cover (Luke hiding Vader's fortress, the Vagabound and the planet), just "duplicated images" (the Falanassi creating a fleet). Sadow's illusions were basically real meaning he produced 90 % of the Sith forces during the attack on Coruscant and made them move / act individually and even react. You see...he was just doing a far more difficult thing.

2. Memit had Odann and Ooroo by him as well. And Memit was an advisor, not a war leader. By the by, found proof on another issue: It specifically says a few knights are all that leads the fight on Coruscant against Naga.

Where is the point if he was a war leader or an advisor ? Yoda was a Jedi Cosular and still able to defeat anybody else in a lightsaber fight. And if you find some proof than PRESENT it and not just say "I've some proof".

3. Like hell, the Imperial Navy was an incredible force.

See...and still it couldn't destroy the Rebels because of the methods Sidious used to rule.

4. The Ancient Sith weren't exactly affecting anything physically without hosts and a bevy of Sith energy around. And who says Sidious actually NEEDED a Clone Body?

They weren't exactly affecting anything physically ? They don't have to if they can destroy holocrons and kill people with sheer force powers. And stop that "Sith energy" stuff - they were generating it but couldn't use it. Sidious not needing a clone body ? That's why he built them and wanted to take over Anakin Solo's body ?

5. At the very end, when Kun tries to manipulate/turn them...he fails rather miserably. And considering it took a group of PADAWANS to trap him...

What the...? He controlled Streen who was about to kill Luke when the other just did show up and stopped Streen. Then they all got force choked and Streen's ability was the only thing saving them before the combined power of Luke, Vodo and the students was able to destroy Kun. Really...where did the "trap" him and where did they triumph over him alone ?

6. Possibly had the power? Kun didn't really show himself as anything remotely resembling a powerhouse until the amulet and the amulet did the work, NOT Kun

The amulet used Kun's anger multiplied it and shoots energy. As I said...he didn't have the weapon. And still...seeing that Kun with that amulet alone was able to do something that needed Luke, Vodo and all of Luke's students combined powers to be reproduced that make him quite powerful WITH the amulet. Don't you think so ?

7. To counter the idea that Ragnos's return was before DE?

Who did say something like that ? I just said that he was around for 5,000 years, seeing that he spoke to Sadow/Kressh directly after his death, to Kun and Ulic 1,000 years later and to Sidious another 4,000 years later. That was why I wondered that he had to be "summoned" just a few years later.

8. You think I don't notice how little sense it makes? And Plageuis knowing what Palp said he does is conjecture and rumor at best. It makes little sense, it's ridiculous, but it's there, spot on there.

Why doesn't it make sense ? Why should Sidious make that up and later tell Anakin that together they would be able to archive the same power ? He already had him over to the Dark Side.

9. He'd already been apart of the Order and apparently a candidate for the DL position.

No. He simply didn't have the knowledge. He himself even thought that he couldn't be any more than a Sith Acolyte at that point. He had just escaped from Ossus after slaying his master and he was just somebody who didn't pass his trials to become a Jedi Kinght. That's hardly compareable to somebody who lived his entire life studying and using Sith Magic / Alchemy or the Dark Side.

10. When did he 'rip massive walls to pieces'

During his fight with the creature on Yavin 4. He once points his hands to the temple wall and you can see it exploding.

And considering Odan was near dead anyways....the man was over a thousand and NOT exactly skilled in offensive means.

Oh great. You just assume that Odan was near dead. Proof ? Do you know the average lifetime of his species ? And I call the ability to cut Jedi's connection to the force off with some concentration and a hand movement quite an "offensive" skill.

There's no proof it could have or would have worked on Sylvar.

What ? Kun blasted her through the room without effort and we've seen nothing coming from the amulet (that nice beams, some glowing). The narration said he didn't even care about her.

Otherwise, he could simply have used it on Vodo, or on Ulic, or on Ood. And Ood didn't 'fight', he sat back, failed to help and watched Ooroo die. He also found the holocron aboard an empty Sith ship. And Arca was near the edge of unconciousness thanks to being totally caught off guard by Nadd AND Ommin. And Ommin was dead by the time Nadd took his soul.

He didn't want to use it on Vodo or Ulic or Odd. That's the entire point. Or have you see him trying to do it and fail, eh ?
And Arca was caught "off guard" ? He walked into a city dominated by Dark Side magicians and Nadd himself for 400 years and was surprised by a Dark Side attack ? What a great Jedi. And no...Ommin was still alive, then Nadd's saying something like "It's over Ommin." and he's dead.

11. Ragnos already knew the new things implemented by Bane's order? The mysticism of Plageuis? The Sith lords preceeding Ragnos? Who the hell says any of those 'instakills' could work whatsoever? If they could, Ragnos would've used them on Simus and Naga on Ludo.

All people following the Ancient Sith used knowledge created by the Ancient Sith. Why don't you get it ? That's why they kept plundering Korriban and gathered knowledge all over the Galaxy. And why should Ragnos have used instakill abilities ? You suggested that they weren't "backstabbers" at all but instead fought in duels. So why would they use instakill abilities on each other ?

And no, Sidious's force storm was HARDLY his strongest ability, I'd wager that as sucking a planet of life and energy. And the SKywalkers PLUS Anakin Solo's already raw force power were against him. Sidious has the power and knowledge necessary to take Ragnos on and isn't stupid to engage Ragnos in a saber duel. I'd say he could win by tearing the place to pieces with the Force or draining Ragnos, or pinching off a nerve in his brain.

You're talking about Ragnos here and not about stupid-idiot-X. Yet you still fail to provide proof for any of your suggestions. So what ? Can Sidious drain other force users ? Obviously not since he didn't use it on Luke and Leia. He used his most powerful weapon and that was - oh my - the force storm. And Luke at that point had less knowledge than the Luke who got pretty much tossed around like a ragdoll by Kun's spirit and Kyp. So what ?
Finally Sidious didn't have all of Ragnos knowledge, you can't judge his force powers compared to Ragnos and Ragnos can destroy him physically. So Sidious loses. Or, as IKC always says: "Fanboys can't save Sidious." Period.