Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
By myself time? It's a message board, I can take as long as I want.
Don't get all Cocky with me. It's plain stupid.
The bottom line is you're telling me to provide proof when you can't show me shit all. It's sort of Hypocritical.
I am DONE with this shit. We both have theories and we have expressed them.
This arguement is over.... For now...
Originally posted by Sorgo
Don't get all Cocky with me. It's plain stupid.The bottom line is you're telling me to provide proof when you can't show me shit all. It's sort of Hypocritical.
I am DONE with this shit. We both have theories and we have expressed them.
This arguement is over.... For now...
I have to admit, Glentract, you're wild card is "Proof?" every time... and it's becoming a bit old. Instead of pushing the opposition for proof, you need to disprove what they already have up.
If they make assertions and don't back them up, just point it out.
What...? Up to this point, I have done little more in this thread then state my opionion, provide a short post or two to back it up, and defend Janus when Darthsith started calling him a fanboy. Why am I being associated as on a tagteam with Darthsith.
Vader says this after trying to fill the Carbonite Chamber with the Carbonite WITH Luke in it.
Do you know why he would do this? Perhaps to capture Luke and present him to the Emperor?
Vader was NOT going easy on Luke. He would have killed Luke if Luke wasn't so good. The Sith believe that if you are not Strong enough, than you deserve death.
Anakin was weak in ep1, but Palpatine still befriended him. Palaptine knew Anakin could become powerful, just as Vader knew Luke could become powerful. I don't see them killing off every single person who wants to become one of them. Look at how easily Dooku pwned Asajj, but he still took her as an apprentice even though to him she was weak.
Also, maybe you should read Shadows of the Empire. One of the major points in the book is Vader getting pissed at Xizor for trying to kill Luke and goes so far as to kill the guy who provides the resources for the second Death Star in revenge. This is after ESB, so Vader obviously didn't want Luke dead.
I seem to remember him flat out asking him to join him actually. If he felt Luke was so weak, why would he do that?
Vader was testing Luke with all of his power. If Luke could not overwhelm Vader or did not show more power than Vader, than in the eyes of a Sith, the Weak deserve DEATH and DEATH only.
That's certainly a theory, but a wrong one as I have shown above.
What...? Up to this point, I have done little more in this thread then state my opionion, provide a short post or two to back it up, and defend Janus when Darthsith started calling him a fanboy. Why am I being associated as on a tagteam with Darthsith.
To be Honest...
You haven't done more than state your Opinion. More Arrogance from you.
Do you know why he would do this? Perhaps to capture Luke and present him to the Emperor?
Your Theory is as good as mine.
Anakin was weak in ep1, but Palpatine still befriended him. Palaptine knew Anakin could become powerful, just as Vader knew Luke could become powerful. I don't see them killing off every single person who wants to become one of them. Look at how easily Dooku pwned Asajj, but he still took her as an apprentice even though to him she was weak.
What the hell? Luke wasn't weak. The reason Vader probably spared him is the fact that Luke had overpowered him during several points during the battle, including the Shoulder slash. Luke survived Vader's countless attempts to destroy him.
Also, maybe you should read Shadows of the Empire. One of the major points in the book is Vader getting pissed at Xizor for trying to kill Luke and goes so far as to kill the guy who provides the resources for the second Death Star in revenge. This is after ESB, so Vader obviously didn't want Luke dead.
Keyword: AFTER
This was after ESB. He was feeling remorse for Luke in ROTJ and probably started feeling this shortly after ESB, when he nearly killed his Son.
I seem to remember him flat out asking him to join him actually. If he felt Luke was so weak, why would he do that?
That's certainly a theory, but a wrong one as I have shown above.
Glentract, Stop. Now.
You have proven no one wrong, so don't let it get to your head for too long now.
Originally posted by Sorgo
To be Honest...You haven't done more than state your Opinion. More Arrogance from you.
I've backed up my points as good or better then you so any arrogance you proclaim on me you also proclaim on yourself.
Originally posted by Sorgo
Your Theory is as good as mine.
No, mine is better because my has proof backing it up.
Originally posted by Sorgo
What the hell? Luke wasn't weak. The reason Vader probably spared him is the fact that Luke had overpowered him during several points during the battle, including the Shoulder slash. Luke survived Vader's countless attempts to destroy him.
Wait, so now you are saying that Vader spared him, but just a little while earlier you said he was trying to kill him. That really makes no sense, as we know that he wanted to capture Luke even before they started fighting. The whole Bespin thing was a trap and they tested carbon freezing on Han before the fight to give Vader an easy method for transporting Luke that wouldn't kill him.
Vader had countless opportunities to kill Luke that he did not take. The other times when it appeared that Vader was trying to kill him more likely then not he was trying to subdue Luke so he could present him to the Emperor.
Originally posted by Sorgo
Keyword: AFTERThis was after ESB. He was feeling remorse for Luke in ROTJ and probably started feeling this shortly after ESB, when he nearly killed his Son.
We know that Vader wanted to capture Luke before the fight as he froze Han in carbonite to make sure it wouldn't kill a human. Then we know he didn't want Luke dead after and went so fas as to kill one of the most important people in the Empire just because that guy(Xizor) tried to kill Luke.
So, you are telling me that Vader wanted to kill Luke during that fight even though we know that the rest of the time he wanted him alive. That really makes no sense.
Originally posted by Sorgo
Glentract, Stop. Now.You have proven no one wrong, so don't let it get to your head for too long now.
You've just shown that you are very narrow-minded on this. You really expect me to believe that Vader was trying to kill Luke during the fight even though I have shown that both before and after he wanted him alive? It makes no sense, surely you can see that.
I've backed up my points as good or better then you so any arrogance you proclaim on me you also proclaim on yourself.
No, mine is better because my has proof backing it up.
PROOF? LMAO! I hardly call a Book and a few theories proof.
Please. Drop your Ego before you enter the thread.
How am I arrogant? You're trying to tell me your Opinion is complete fact and mine is relative Shit compared to yours.
You're the Arrogant one, not me. Get off your High Horse.
Wait, so now you are saying that Vader spared him, but just a little while earlier you said he was trying to kill him. That really makes no sense, as we know that he wanted to capture Luke even before they started fighting. The whole Bespin thing was a trap and they tested carbon freezing on Han before the fight to give Vader an easy method for transporting Luke that wouldn't kill him.
You haven't been reading my replies properly, now have you?
In the end, Vader spared Luke because he survived Vaders previous attacks on him AND he also got a hit on Vader too. And survived the Carbonite Freezing, which Vader found impressive.
The whole meeting was to test Lukes skill. Not to just throw him in a Chamber or else Vader would have done that in the first place since he was going easy on him... Right? Or wait! Maybe Vader WAS NOT going easy on him. Maybe Vader was having a hell of a time with Luke and did put extreme pressure on him. If Luke died, during that point, Vader would not have cared. He was testing him. That is what the Sith do. And if you are too weak not to survive or you are not stronger, THAN TOO BAD... YOU DIE!
Vader had countless opportunities to kill Luke that he did not take. The other times when it appeared that Vader was trying to kill him more likely then not he was trying to subdue Luke so he could present him to the Emperor.
What the hell? He had no such opportunities. Luke was a challenge for Vader. It says continously in the Script that Luke was pushing Vader back. It mentioned NOTHING about Vader holding himself back against Luke.
We know that Vader wanted to capture Luke before the fight as he froze Han in carbonite to make sure it wouldn't kill a human. Then we know he didn't want Luke dead after and went so fas as to kill one of the most important people in the Empire just because that guy(Xizor) tried to kill Luke.
Another Book....
This was after ESB. And Luke was very powerful. This was proven when Luke overpowered Vader during their ESB Fight several times.
You've just shown that you are very narrow-minded on this. You really expect me to believe that Vader was trying to kill Luke during the fight even though I have shown that both before and after he wanted him alive? It makes no sense, surely you can see that.
What i'm telling you is that Vader was trying his hardest against Luke. Putting extreme effort and it shows in the way he fights during the Movie. Vader is not going to go easy on Luke, especially when testing him for the Sith. The Sith just don't go easy on people that they Test, even with Family. It makes no sense.... Surely, you can see that.
Originally posted by Sorgo
PROOF? LMAO! I hardly call a Book and a few theories proof.Please. Drop your Ego before you enter the thread.
How am I arrogant? You're trying to tell me your Opinion is complete fact and mine is relative Shit compared to yours.
You're the Arrogant one, not me. Get off your High Horse.
Sorgo, I know what you think is canon, but that doesn't fly here in an EU forum. That book is canon whether you like it or not. If you don't, that's to bad. It's only a sign of your failing though, not mine.
Come on, lets see you proof.
Originally posted by Sorgo
You haven't been reading my replies properly, now have you?In the end, Vader spared Luke because he survived Vaders previous attacks on him AND he also got a hit on Vader too. And survived the Carbonite Freezing, which Vader found impressive.
Why would Vader have tested the carbon freezing process on Han before the fight if he was planning to kill him?
Originally posted by Sorgo
The whole meeting was to test Lukes skill. Not to just throw him in a Chamber or else Vader would have done that in the first place since he was going easy on him... Right? Or wait! Maybe Vader WAS NOT going easy on him. Maybe Vader was having a hell of a time with Luke and did put extreme pressure on him. If Luke died, during that point, Vader would not have cared. He was testing him. That is what the Sith do. And if you are too weak not to survive or you are not stronger, THAN TOO BAD... YOU DIE!
Now it is my turn to laugh at you. Where is your proof for this? Wait, you have nothing to support it other then your second rate assumptions. Not better then a licensed book.
Originally posted by Sorgo
What the hell? He had no such opportunities. Luke was a challenge for Vader. It says continously in the Script that Luke was pushing Vader back. It mentioned NOTHING about Vader holding himself back against Luke.
When Luke is on his butt in on the walkway Vader could have put his blade two more inches forward and Luke would be dead. Nothing other then the fact that he never wanted to kill Luke was stopping him.
Originally posted by Sorgo
Another Book....This was after ESB. And Luke was very powerful. This was proven when Luke overpowered Vader during their ESB Fight several times.
Books are canon. I don't know why you are trying to substitute my argument, which comes from a canonical book since it doesn't contradict the movies, with your crappy, unfounded assumptions. Really, take a look at yourself if you want to see an arrogant person.
Originally posted by Sorgo
What i'm telling you is that Vader was trying his hardest against Luke. Putting extreme effort and it shows in the way he fights during the Movie. Vader is not going to go easy on Luke, especially when testing him for the Sith. The Sith just don't go easy on people that they Test, even with Family. It makes no sense.... Surely, you can see that.
Surely you can see that you have no proof for your claims, but I have provided references from books. Did you not see how fast Vader pwned Luke after Luke got that minor tap on Vader's shoulder? It took less then 20 seconds before Luke had pissed in his pants and was holding an arm stump. To say that the 2 or 3 minutes before that Vader was fighting his hardest and that only after he wanted Luke to live makes no sense and contradicts the evidence that I have shown, meaning your assumptions are wrong.
Vader had to stand up to all of Sidious' Dark Sider Elite and stay the top student. This seems easy at first, but there was an army of them. Don't believe me? Take a look at them:
Gwellib Ap-Llewff, Dark Side Adept of the Imperial Citadel
Argor, Lesser Prophet of the Dark Side
Boc Aseca, Dark Jedi
Picaroon C. Boodle, Dark Jedi
Brakiss, Apprentice Inquisitor
Adalric Cessius Brandl, High Inquisitor
Jaalib Brandl, Apprentice Inquisitor
Shira Ellan Colla Brie, Emperor's Hand
Joruus C'baoth, Guardian of Wayland
The Cloaked Figure, Lesser Prophet of the Dark Side
The Constable of Homunculi, Clone Keeper
Cronal, Lesser Prophet of the Dark Side/Emperor's Hand
Sa Cuis, Emperor's Hand
Ameesa Darys, Inquisitor
Nial Declann, Grand Admiral
Drayneen, Inquisitor
Jeng Droga, Emperor's Hand
Durrei, Dark Jedi
Baddon Fass, Dark Side Elite
Flint, Stormtrooper
Vill Goir, Dark Side Elite
Gorc, Dark Jedi
Gornash, Lesser Prophet of the Dark Side
Kvag Gthull, Dark Side Elite
Halmere, High Inquisitor
Hethrir, Imperial Procurator of Justice
Roganda Ismaren, Emperor's Hand
Mara Jade, Emperor's Hand
Shela Jalahafi, Dark Side Adept
Teles Jalahafi, Dark Side Adept
Carnor Jax, Imperial Sovereign Protector
Jedgar, High Prophet of the Dark Side
Jerec, Inquisitor/Emperor's Hand
Kadann, Supreme Prophet of the Dark Side
Zasm Katth, Dark Side Elite
Danaan Kerr, Dark Jedi
Vess Kogo, Emperor's Hand
Arden Lyn, Emperor's Hand
Malorum, Inquisitor
Maw, Dark Jedi
Merilli, Lesser Prophetess of the Dark Side
Krdys Mordi, Dark Side Elite
Morthul, Dark Jedi
Nefta, Dark Side Adept of the Byss Clone Vats
Xecr Nist, Dark Side Elite
Quarmall, Dark Jedi
Sarcev Quest, Emperor's Hand
Loam Redge, Inquisitor
Rillao, Dark Jedi
Sa-Di, Dark Side Adept of the Byss Clone Vats
Sancor, Inquisitor
Sariss, Lesser Prophetess of the Dark Side
Sedriss, Dark Side Elite
Shynne, Inquisitor
Mox Slosin, High Inquisitor
Kam Solusar, Dark Side Elite
Maarek Stele, Emperor's Reach/Emperor's Hand
Tedryn-Sha, Dark Side Elite
Savuud Thimram, Dark Side Adept of the Imperial Citadel
T'iaz, Dark Jedi
Laddinare Torbin, Grand Inquisitor
Tremayne, High Inquisitor
Vost Tyne, Admiral
Valytar, Inquisitor
Vialco, Apprentice Inquisitor
Yun, Dark Jedi
Some of them, like Joruus, are very powerful and capable of defeating Luke even just a single year before DE. Kam became the adminstrator of Luke's Jedi Academy and Jerec is capable of a ton. Vader was more powerful then all of them.
Sorgo, I know what you think is canon, but that doesn't fly here in an EU forum. That book is canon whether you like it or not. If you don't, that's to bad. It's only a sign of your failing though, not mine.
Come on, lets see [b]you proof. [/B]
I refuse to repeat myself again.
What we are arguing about is not EU.... If you haven't gotten that part yet and Ush himself has dismissed the NJO and some Books as "Unexistant". And Lucas has said the Authors "Have a seperate world of Star Wars from his world."
You trying to dismiss your crappy EU Bullshit by me... Doesn't cut, Glentract.
And No: The Book is not Canon and don't you DARE try to write that in stone. This is getting f*cking proposterous now.
Why would Vader have tested the carbon freezing process on Han [b]before the fight if he was planning to kill him?[/b]
He obviously wanted the Chamber as an alternative plan. It failed miserabely because Vader couldn't get his kid in there. Or was Vader faking not getting Luke in the Freezing Chamber? That's the kind of shit you're going to try to hand me next.
Now it is my turn to laugh at you. Where is your proof for this? Wait, you have nothing to support it other then your second rate assumptions. Not better then a licensed book.
You don't have proof either, Glentract. Please... Stop making a fool out of yourself.
The Episode III Game was Licensed as well. Was Dooku stabbed? Did Mace and Anakin Duel? Please. Spare me the bullshit.
When Luke is on his butt in on the walkway Vader could have put his blade two more inches forward and Luke would be dead. Nothing other then the fact that he never wanted to kill Luke was stopping him.
Two inches forward? Are you crazy? Luke was already scrambling away and Vader didn't have the chance. Vader couldn't move his arm anymore forward and it wouldn't reach him anyways.
Two more steps and Sidious would have killed Mace too.... Unfortunately, Mace was going back while Sidious tried to go forward. This is similar.
Books are canon. I don't know why you are trying to substitute my argument, which comes from a canonical book since it doesn't contradict the movies, with your crappy, unfounded assumptions. Really, take a look at yourself if you want to see an arrogant person.
Lucas has specifically STATED that the Books are a COMPLETELY SEPERATE world from his World. And the Authors have been known to favor characters. THAT IS NOT CANON!
Surely you can see that you have no proof for your claims, but I have provided references from books. Did you not see how fast Vader pwned Luke after Luke got that minor tap on Vader's shoulder? It took less then 20 seconds before Luke had pissed in his pants and was holding an arm stump. To say that the 2 or 3 minutes before that Vader was fighting his hardest and that only after he wanted Luke to live makes no sense and contradicts the evidence that I have shown, meaning your assumptions are wrong.
Luke glances at the instrument complex floating away. At that instant,
Vader's sword comes down across Luke's right forearm, cutting off his
hand
DIRECTLY from the Script. The reason Vader got the upper hand was because he was on the Narrow end of the Platform and because he looked away. Didn't see that, did you?
Books, Books, Books, Books and Books. THAT IS ALL I HEAR FROM YOU! You have no direct proof from the Movies or the script that implies Vader faked it. HELLLLLLL, you don't have a Novelisation saying he faked it. There isn't anything obvious during their fight that says it, damnit!
Vader was having troubles! It says it in the Script! And you have the f*cking nerve to bust in here trying to tell me Books are proof.... BOOKS ARE CANON? You're ridiculous and you'll snuff out any LIE to prove that you AND only you are Correct and i'm F*CKING SICK AND TIRED OF IT!
SHOW ME ANYTHING OTHER THAN A BOOK! COME ON, MAN! I'll be waiting...
Sorgo, this is an EU forum. That means EU counts unless it contradicts the movies. Shadows of the Empires does not contradict the movies, so it is canon. If you can't accept that, we have nothing more to talk about.
But, you also completely failed to address Vader setting up the carborn freezing chamber before the fight. All you gave for it are your ridiculos assumptions that don't cut it. You are assuming that he gave up on that plan, but you have nothing to back it as even afterward he didn't try to kill Luke.
And you ignored the fact that Vader was better then Joruus, who took Luke even years after ROTJ. You missed that he was better then Kam, who, without any additional training from Luke trained Corran and Mara in lightsaber fighting, both of whom could give Asajj a very hard time, if not defeat her completely..
Sorgo books are cannon, now stop getting so upset about it.. How old are you? seriously man calm down.
and Glentract proved enough.. Vader is constantly staying away from Luke not killing him. He tried to get luke in the Carbon Freezing chamber that was his entire plan had been since the start. Then luke jumps out of that. A little time later he hits Vader in the shoulder and 20 seconds later Luke misses an arm, and Vader just tries to convince Luke to join him, instead of killing him.
Sorgo, this is an EU forum. That means EU counts unless it contradicts the movies. Shadows of the Empires does not contradict the movies, so it is canon. If you can't accept that, we have nothing more to talk about.
But, you also completely failed to address Vader setting up the carborn freezing chamber before the fight. All you gave for it are your ridiculos assumptions that don't cut it. You are assuming that he gave up on that plan, but you have nothing to back it as even afterward he didn't try to kill Luke.
And you ignored the fact that Vader was better then Joruus, who took Luke even years after ROTJ. You missed that he was better then Kam, who, without any additional training from Luke trained Corran and Mara in lightsaber fighting, both of whom could give Asajj a very hard time, if not defeat her completely..
Yeah. You win. I was wrong.
I kind of figured Vader would have been trying to kill him by the way he was treating him (Throwing Various objects, cutting his hand off) and for the fact that he is a Sith and Sith don't usually bear Mercy.
I don't know.... It doesn't seem all too right.
All the things I have mentioned in my arguements make sense, but the fact that he set up the Carbon Chamber for Luke and put his hand out for Luke to join him gives away (In a small way) that Vader didn't want to kill his son.
Originally posted by Vegemiteman
Anakin/Vader wasn't an ordinary Jedi. He also knew how to focus his Force talent. She may be able to tap into but wouldn't be able to control it.Vader still wins
Watch the CW cartoons and rethink that statement. Dooku and Sidious considered Asajj Ventress to be a worthy opponent for Anakin as he was between AotC and RotS. She took on Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan and Anakin needed to use the Dark Side to be able to defeat her. So she isn't really "weak" at all...although I think Vader would still be able to defeat her with his experience, skill and knowledge.