Dr Strange(with Spear of Destiny)vs Spectre no, to easy, Lucifer instead

Originally posted by unknowable
Makes sense, but their fighting in an unbiased universe,

Second, he/she who holds the Spear, becomes invulnerable to any attack, especially from angels.

And if you read the first few posts you'l see that the Spear was used by a nobody to bash the Mighty Spectre nearly to death, but the interesting thing is, the more magically inclined the wilder, the more powerful still the Spear becomes.

This was the debate, if average joes can kill the Spectre with it, what are the possibilities if it where in the hands of earth's sorcerer supreme.

If the Spear makes Strange completely invulnerable, Lucifer would need to come up with a trick to win. No idea what trick he'd have to use, but then again, he always seems to have one for every occasion.

I'm not sure that I'd call Lucifer an angel. Michael and Lucifer are referred to by Yahweh as his sons and he gave them the power to create the universe. They didn't create the universe by using God's power, they created the universe by using their own power. This feat was duplicated again when Lucifer's universe was created and again by Elaine (Michael's daughter) when she created her own universe.

When you consider the power scale they operate on, I'm not even sure the Spear could hurt Lucifer, but I'm willing to believe that it could.

Originally posted by JohnR
. They didn't create the universe by using God's power, they created the universe by using their own power. This feat was duplicated again when Lucifer's universe was created and again by Elaine (Michael's daughter) when she created her own universe.

Their power is derived from God. When Yahweh abandoned creation both Michael and Lucifers powers went on a downward spiral. They were left vulnerable.

I don't see Lucifer being capable of tricking Strange.

Originally posted by long pig
I don't see Lucifer being capable of tricking Strange.

Lucifer is capable of tricking ANYONE. He makes Thanos and Reed Richards look like retarded dogs on barbiturates.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Their power is derived from God. When Yahweh abandoned creation both Michael and Lucifers powers went on a downward spiral. They were left vulnerable.

erm, i didnt see nethin that said that their powers decrease, nuthin was mentioned, their powers are their own, not yahweh's

Their powers don't come from Yahweh except in the sense that Yahweh's name maintained creation. When he left, creation start to dissolve.

I'm not saying Lucifer or Michael are equal to God; they're not. But they're powerful enough to create universes. Unfortunately, they need "something" to live in. If creation fades, they'd be wiped out also.

Michael could have maintained the original creation and Lucifer could have maintained his own creation if it wasn't for Fenris infecting Yggdrasil, one of the pillars creation was built on. Elaine, with the power that was once Michael's, created her own universe and folded the other two universes into it to preserve them.

So it's not a matter of power so much as existence. Yahweh was greater than "existence," but Lucifer, Michael, and Elaine weren't. Given existence, however, they're all virtually omnipotent.

Originally posted by unknowable
The exact nature and extent of the Spear’s powers remain ambiguous. However, even those with no formal magical training have been able to use it to produce world-altering effects. Aside from the Sphere of Influence, Adolf Hitler used the Spear’s power to summon a flight of real, tangible valkyries and, in April 1945, nearly succeeded in unleashing the devastation of Gotterdamerung onto the Earth and bringing about the end of the world. Others with no mystical inclination have nearly succeeded in destroying the Spectre, one of the DC Universe’s most powerful magical entities, by simply using the Spear as a melee weapon. The Sphere of Influence itself was an extremely formidable spell, capable of automatically controlling the minds and wills of the most powerful metahumans and sorcerers at tremendous distances without even requiring the conscious volition of the Spear’s wielder. It should be noted, however, that the Sphere was created by Hitler in partnership with a Japanese occultist called the Dragon King and bolstered with the power of the Holy Grail. A feat of such magnitude may not be possible without the assistance of a more competent magic-user.

But like I said, it turns anyone who wields it evil and insane and they suffer from severe delusions. Would Strange still have access to all of his power in this case? From what I understand, it requires him to pure of heart.

He wouldn't beat Spectre OR Lucifer with it, in a real situation, neither of them would opt for close quarters combat against a weapon that can physically kill anything.

Like I said though, it would be pure PIS, CIS for either of them to be defeated by the object though, as beings like this could simply wipe him from time-space as if he never existed.

Originally posted by JohnR
Their powers don't come from Yahweh except in the sense that Yahweh's name maintained creation. When he left, creation start to dissolve.

I'm not saying Lucifer or Michael are equal to God; they're not. But they're powerful enough to create universes. Unfortunately, they need "something" to live in. If creation fades, they'd be wiped out also.

Michael could have maintained the original creation and Lucifer could have maintained his own creation if it wasn't for Fenris infecting Yggdrasil, one of the pillars creation was built on. Elaine, with the power that was once Michael's, created her own universe and folded the other two universes into it to preserve them.

So it's not a matter of power so much as existence. Yahweh was greater than "existence," but Lucifer, Michael, and Elaine weren't. Given existence, however, they're all virtually omnipotent.

actually micheal and lucifer CAN exist outside creation n have gone outside creation as when lucifer killed micheal in the void outside creation to save the multiverse.

Lucifer can exist outside of Yahweh's universe, but he wasn't able to leave without a letter of passage. I'm not sure what would happen to him if he was trapped inside creation when it was destroyed.

no he left without a letter of passage when he killed micheal, also lucifer has his OWN creation now.

imagine of lucifer had the energy that micheal had if strange did infact try to kill him he would risk a explosion that would obliterate the universe.

Originally posted by Juntai
The National Interest sent a super villain to retrieve and use it against the Spectre,

Wasn't a supervillian

Superman used it against the Spectre, Captain Marvel used it against the Spectre.

True.

The whole "No magical inclination" thing is irrelivent, because it's still NOT talking about NORMAL beings.

Not irrelivent, the magically inclined wielder can extract even greater power from the Spear, unless you write for DC, and can overwrite stories,characters and weapons with DC co. validation, please don't write that.

But like I said, it turns anyone who wields it evil and insane and they suffer from severe delusions.

That was when the Spear was imbued with Hitler's madness, it's been purified since then by the Sentinals of Magic.

He wouldn't beat Spectre OR Lucifer with it, in a real situation, neither of them would opt for close quarters combat against a weapon that can physically kill anything.

Wonder how your "supervillian" and others got close to Spectre to smack him around.

Like I said though, it would be pure PIS, CIS for either of them to be defeated by the object though, as beings like this could simply wipe him from time-space as if he never existed.

PIS PAS PUS, bottom line, as long as he holds the Spear, nobody is wiping anyone out of existense, past, present or future.
So he better have a back up plan.

Originally posted by Mider
imagine of lucifer had the energy that micheal had if strange did infact try to kill him he would risk a explosion that would obliterate the universe.

Interesting point,
but I wonder if he would explode like beings composed of energy would.

When Lucifer killed Michael did he explode and destrroy a universe or anything at all?

actually id agree to him havin a CHANCE against micheal. cause micheal chooses to serve god n stay in his existance n order, lucifer however has surpassed his brother in power and will. he has his OWN CREATION, outside that of the voice's n i doubt that spear can kill him.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually id agree to him havin a CHANCE against micheal. cause micheal chooses to serve god n stay in his existance n order, lucifer however has surpassed his brother in power and will. he has his OWN CREATION, outside that of the voice's n i doubt that spear can kill him.

Hmmm..
See, I like that, thinking things through, assimilating and finally a logic that makes sense, though not necessarily right.

"The National Interest sent a super villain to retrieve and use it against the Spectre."
Wasn't a supervillian

Then in issue 50...Spectre then had more important issues to deal with, as they assembled the Talisman, and summoned an abstract entity, during the time Spectre and now good guy The Patriot [Earlier in the story-arc known as Sorceror or Sam Wilson.] handled him. During this time, Spectre's HUMAN COP partner, rushed the wielder of the Spear of Destiny, punched him in the face, knocked him down, beat him up, took the spear and killed him with it. So much for invincible huh?

That was when the Spear was imbued with Hitler's madness, it's been purified since then by the Sentinals of Magic.

No they didn't, in DOJ they didn't want anyone but Captain Marvel to touch it, because he's considered the purest soul in DC's Universe. As he's an innocent child inbued with the power of Gods. And even he was questioning if he could hold out against it. Afterwards, still none of them touching it, they encased it in magic and put it into the sun.

"He wouldn't beat Spectre OR Lucifer with it, in a real situation, neither of them would opt for close quarters combat against a weapon that can physically kill anything."

Wonder how your "supervillian" and others got close to Spectre to smack him around.

Because comics are different than the forum. Same way Batman throws down with Superamn in comics books. Fact is, characters like Spectre that have destroyed and recreated the universe in it's ENTIRETY, multiple times are perfectly capable of not moving into close quarters combat. Which is what happened in the fight with The National Interest, he ran in and started boxing the guy. Similarly, Hal Jordan arisen from the dead, kept Spectre busy while Captain Marvel blindsided him with it.

And for note, it was issue 47, Final Night Spectre vs 3 tie in that Sorceror got the Spear.
Issue 48 that he both returned to give it to The National Interest, and the hopping in the battle suit, and talking about how it's indestructible and designed after Sorceror with tech added.
And issue 49 when he first battles Spectre.[I misprinted 47 in the previous post
And issue 50 as stated, where a normal human cop, beats up the wielder and takes his spear and kills him with it, regardless of this apperent complete immortality and invincibility bla bla you claim it can do..

Want to try again?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
erm, i didnt see nethin that said that their powers decrease, nuthin was mentioned, their powers are their own, not yahweh's

Well i suggest you have a re-read of your Lucifer collection:

When Yahweh left creation, the brothers' powers went on a downward spiral.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no he left without a letter of passage when he killed micheal, also lucifer has his OWN creation now.

Leon he doesnt need to carry the letter with him to leave creation. The letter in itself gave him the option of leaving the Presences creation without any negative affects on his person.