world's best martial artist match

The general view at Marvel is that Cap is a bit stronger, BP is a bit faster, but they're both at or beyond peak human and very evenly matched.

That said - Lady Shiva is probably the best of the bunch FOR NOW (Shang Chi suffered an embarassing - yes EMBARASSING - loss to bone claw Wolverine), but given the rate at which Batgirl is evolving, she'll likely take the title easily this time next year. I'd put it like this:

1. Shiva
2. Batgirl
2. Shang Chi
2. Richard Dragon
5. Bronze Tiger
6. Black Panther
6. Captain America
8. Batman (a billion+ martial arts and still has trouble against untrained street brawlers like Joker, 2-Face, Hush and Black Mask)
9. Conner Hawke
10. Iron Fist (sorry, suffered too many embarassing losses - like to Invisible Woman, of all people in an MA match!!!)
11. Daredevil
12. Elektra
13. Wolverine
14. Wonder Woman (not counting her strength/speed)
15. etc.

Originally posted by demigawd
The general view at Marvel is that Cap is a bit stronger, BP is a bit faster, but they're both at or beyond peak human and very evenly matched.

That said - Lady Shiva is probably the best of the bunch FOR NOW (Shang Chi suffered an embarassing - yes EMBARASSING - loss to bone claw Wolverine), but given the rate at which Batgirl is evolving, she'll likely take the title easily this time next year. I'd put it like this:

1. Shiva
2. Batgirl
2. Shang Chi
2. Richard Dragon
5. Bronze Tiger
6. Black Panther
6. Captain America
8. Batman (a billion+ martial arts and still has trouble against untrained street brawlers like Joker, 2-Face, Hush and Black Mask)
9. Conner Hawke
10. Iron Fist (sorry, suffered too many embarassing losses - like to Invisible Woman, of all people in an MA match!!!)
11. Daredevil
12. Elektra
13. Wolverine
14. Wonder Woman (not counting her strength/speed)
15. etc.

The original Archer from Valiants not Acclaims Archer and Armstrong comes second to Karate Kid!

Champion is the best martial artist.............😖hifty:

Well, I intentionally left out Karate Kid. Given his pre-crisis feats, he'd likely be able to take everyone else out on this list at the same time. With his hands behind his back. Blindfolded. At half speed.

Valiants Archer was cool as **** - In fact if you get the chance read it, it is often seen going cheap, do not confuse with Acclaims shit one after they bought the characteres. Archer and Armstrong was derivative and nothing new, but executed to perfection. Archer = think how Iron Fist should be!

Wonder Woman regularly trains (and defeats) Lady Shiva in powerless combat....

I put her near the top. Richard Dragon possibly surpasses her.

REMEMBER people. You need to add experience. Orion and Big Barda definitely belong there. They mastered dozens of martial arts.

Originally posted by Draco69
Wonder Woman regularly trains (and defeats) Lady Shiva in powerless combat....

What? When? How? Issue?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
What?When? How? Issue?

Note that prior to the training, WW rendered herself powerless (what's the use of training with a human when you're Superman in a skirt?)

http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img58&image=wwtrain4fd.jpg

Also, Cap.

1) Where has he received all the martial arts knowledge? He hadn't done jack shit until the age of 20 or so when he got in the super soldier deal, and even then, I remember his training last only months. After that, he fought in the battlefield, yes, but not way as long as some people. After that he spent about 30 years in ice cube until Namor saved him. He joined Avengers. He continued practicing daily, but I really think that his martial arts experience doesn't touch someone like Black Panther, who has recieved the same kind of training since he could walk.

Namor is actually in the same position then Black Panther, only that he has more experience. But I am not saying that he is as good as BP.

Originally posted by Draco69
Note that prior to the training, WW rendered herself powerless (what's the use of training with a human when you're Superman in a skirt?)

http://img58.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img5...=wwtrain4fd.jpg

Can't see the pic. 🙁

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Also, Cap.

1) Where has he received all the martial arts knowledge? He hadn't done jack shit until the age of 20 or so when he got in the super soldier deal, and even then, I remember his training last only months. After that, he fought in the battlefield, yes, but not way as long as some people. After that he spent about 30 years in ice cube until Namor saved him. He joined Avengers. He continued practicing daily, but I really think that his martial arts experience doesn't touch someone like Black Panther, who has recieved the same kind of training since he could walk.

I completely agree. Cap is NOT a master of martial arts. THINK people. He got the serum in the middle of the war. He didn't have TIME to master every martial art known to man. He learned some judo style boxing, karate and tae kwon do. That's it.

Cap is just extremely talented at what he does.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Can't see the pic. 🙁

I edited it. If you STILL can't see it go to the WW Respect thread. It's the second post.

I can see it. 🙂

Originally posted by BetaRayBill
Taskmaster could win provided hs saw enough fights of all the other fighters

Originally posted by Draco69
Note that prior to the training, WW rendered herself powerless (what's the use of training with a human when you're Superman in a skirt?)

http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img58&image=wwtrain4fd.jpg

Unless you changed the scan, that's NOT Lady Shiva Wonder Woman is fighting.

Originally posted by brainchild81
I'd expect him to win because of what he's already seen.

I think improv has always been his weak point. Having a million moves isn't very impressive when you lack the good judgment to know how and when to apply them. He's also limited to his basic physical conditioning, which isn't on the level of BP or Cap, or even Batman.

Originally posted by demigawd
Unless you changed the scan, that's NOT Lady Shiva Wonder Woman is fighting.

Yes, it's the Cheetah. Prior to battle, she already battled and defeated Killer Croc and Shiva. After Cheetah was defeated, she naturally was confident enough to battle all three.

Originally posted by Draco69
Yes, it's the Cheetah. Prior to battle, she already battled and defeated Killer Croc and Shiva. After Cheetah was defeated, she naturally was confident enough to battle all three.

Do you have scans of the actual Shiva battle?

Originally posted by demigawd
Do you have scans of the actual Shiva battle?

They didn't show it.... 🙁

But it was mentioned later in the issue that WW won. Shiva said something like "I have GOT to train on Themyscira." It was written by Gail Simone who's a rather big Shiva fanboy (girl).

It does make sense. More experience. More training. More arts learned. yadda, yadda.

Originally posted by demigawd
I think improv has always been his weak point. Having a million moves isn't very impressive when you lack the good judgment to know how and when to apply them. He's also limited to his basic physical conditioning, which isn't on the level of BP or Cap, or even Batman.