Originally posted by brainchild81
Not sure about that. His conditioning nearly puts him on par w/Cap. I think he's at the very least as conditioned as Bats. He's also got the ability to fight in "fast forward" for a short period of time before his human body breaks down from the stress.
I'll concede that physically he may be a match in conditioning for Batman, but BP and Cap should still be beyond him because their conditioning is, in part, artificial.
Originally posted by Draco69
They didn't show it.... 🙁But it was mentioned later in the issue that WW won. Shiva said something like "I have GOT to train on Themyscira." It was written by Gail Simone who's a rather big Shiva fanboy (girl).
It does make sense. More experience. More training. More arts learned. yadda, yadda.
WW is defintitely underrated in H2H, but her powerless self beating Shiva off-panel is a bit dubious. IMO, that would be one of her two victories in a 10 fight battle against Shiva. How did WW remove her own powers anyway, and what strength class does that put her in? Deathstroke?
Originally posted by demigawd
WW is defintitely underrated in H2H, but her powerless self beating Shiva off-panel is a bit dubious. IMO, that would be one of her two victories in a 10 fight battle against Shiva. How did WW remove her own powers anyway, and what strength class does that put her in? Deathstroke?
I don't know HOW she removed her powers. Perhaps the Watchtower has something nifty that can remove her powers. Or she petitioned the gods to remove them for her. Or the writer has no clue how her powers work.
Most likely the latter....
Originally posted by Draco69
I don't know HOW she removed her powers. Perhaps the Watchtower has something nifty that can remove her powers. Or she petitioned the gods to remove them for her. Or the writer has no clue how her powers work.Most likely the latter....
Hmm...has dubious written all over it. But ok, a win's a win I suppose. Like I said, though, I wouldn't give a powerless Wonder Woman the majority in a 10 fight series against Shiva. What's your stance?
Originally posted by demigawd
Hmm...has dubious written all over it. But ok, a win's a win I suppose. Like I said, though, I wouldn't give a powerless Wonder Woman the majority in a 10 fight series against Shiva. What's your stance?
I would. She's been around for far longer. She's been trained to kill and maim in a dozen different languages since the day she was born (there's nothing more disturbing than seeing a three-old decaptiate a wooden dummy...) and her library is larger. Shiva's limited to earth-bound arts that are still remembered or practiced. WW's has not only mastered those but classic and/or forgotten arts that never survived into the modern world. Add alien martial arts like Tamanese, Titanese, Kryptonian, and New God arts, and WW is superior.
But I doubt she'll be recognized officially in the comics. Batman will ALWAYS be on top....
🙄
Granted, the one major advantage Lady Shiva and Batgirl have is "body-reading" which WW simply doesn't have. Perhaps on a lower level, but not nearly on par with them.
Originally posted by Draco69
I would. She's been around for far longer. She's been trained to kill and maim in a dozen different languages since the day she was born (there's nothing more disturbing than seeing a three-old decaptiate a wooden dummy...) and her library is larger. Shiva's limited to earth-bound arts that are still remembered or practiced. WW's has not only mastered those but classic and/or forgotten arts that never survived into the modern world. Add alien martial arts like Tamanese, Titanese, Kryptonian, and New God arts, and WW is superior.But I doubt she'll be recognized officially in the comics. Batman will ALWAYS be on top....
🙄
Granted, the one major advantage Lady Shiva and Batgirl have is "body-reading" which WW simply doesn't have. Perhaps on a lower level, but not nearly on par with them.
Well, the thing you have to consider is that one's ability as a fighter isn't based on how many martial arts they know or how much training they do, or even how much experience they have. A lot of it are their physical gifts, mental gifts, and special abilities. A brilliant boxer can beat someone who knows boxing and dozens of other arts with twice as much experience if they just took better to it. Someone with the ability to read body movements and predict moves but knows fewer arts is still going to have an actual combat advantage over someone who lacks that ability. Someone who has a single great technique that they can use on instinct from any angle is going to have an advantage over someone who knows multiple techniques pretty well and has to decide which to use at any given time. Knowing too many styles is actually a liability because it compromises your ability to act on instinct. That's why Champion is a loser - he knows millions of styles, and gets goaded into blindly charging Thanos, who made him look silly because he's tempermental and mentally weak.
So while I agree that Diana likely knows martial arts that were extinct before Shiva was born, in the end it's not the only measurement by which to compare them. It's not even the most accurate measurement.
Originally posted by demigawd
Well, the thing you have to consider is that one's ability as a fighter isn't based on how many martial arts they know or how much training they do, or even how much experience they have. A lot of it are their physical gifts, mental gifts, and special abilities. A brilliant boxer can beat someone who knows boxing and dozens of other arts with twice as much experience if they just took better to it. Someone with the ability to read body movements and predict moves but knows fewer arts is still going to have an actual combat advantage over someone who lacks that ability. Someone who has a single great technique that they can use on instinct from any angle is going to have an advantage over someone who knows multiple techniques pretty well and has to decide which to use at any given time. Knowing too many styles is actually a liability because it compromises your ability to act on instinct. That's why Champion is a loser - he knows millions of styles, and gets goaded into blindly charging Thanos, who made him look silly because he's tempermental and mentally weak.So while I agree that Diana likely knows martial arts that were extinct before Shiva was born, in the end it's not the only measurement by which to compare them. It's not even the most accurate measurement.
Yup Styles make fights, and an average big guy will usually beat a good little guy 😉 hence weight divisions.
"Where has he received all the martial arts knowledge? He hadn't done jack shit until the age of 20 or so when he got in the super soldier deal, and even then, I remember his training last only months. After that, he fought in the battlefield, yes, but not way as long as some people. After that he spent about 30 years in ice cube until Namor saved him. He joined Avengers. He continued practicing daily, but I really think that his martial arts experience doesn't touch someone like Black Panther, who has recieved the same kind of training since he could walk. "
Its Hyperbole. Prior to being frozen he couldnt had received the training he claims because they wer already on war. He wasent shown to receive MA training either with the exception of the military type one. They had to use him right away as theyr secret weapon.
Its the same with Bats. Where he had the time to learn and master 127 figthing styles and still devolope its own? Bullocks.
"Shang Chi suffered an embarassing - yes EMBARASSING - loss to bone claw Wolverine"
I dont see where its the problem with this loss. Shang stated and admited while beating the former Ninjas of his late father that he was out of practise for some time. Plus its Wolverine. Physical superior stats, also good figthing skills and he ended pulling the claws anyway.
I dont see it as jobbing.
"WW's has not only mastered those but classic and/or forgotten arts that never survived into the modern world. Add alien martial arts like Tamanese, Titanese, Kryptonian, and New God arts, and WW is superior".
Thats another like Cap and Bats. Hyperbole. Rucka when saying that practically mentioned every single figthing style he remembered from the DC Universe. Really now.
I personally feel that this shld be limited to human-enhanced human or most to most wolverine level but not WW pls.... i mean than for the marvel side we cld bring in powerless Thor (stalemated Cap), and mortal Herc.
Originally posted by demigawd
The general view at Marvel is that Cap is a bit stronger, BP is a bit faster, but they're both at or beyond peak human and very evenly matched.That said - Lady Shiva is probably the best of the bunch FOR NOW (Shang Chi suffered an embarassing - yes EMBARASSING - loss to bone claw Wolverine), but given the rate at which Batgirl is evolving, she'll likely take the title easily this time next year. I'd put it like this:
1. Shiva
2. Batgirl
2. Shang Chi
2. Richard Dragon
5. Bronze Tiger
6. Black Panther
6. Captain America
8. Batman (a billion+ martial arts and still has trouble against untrained street brawlers like Joker, 2-Face, Hush and Black Mask)
9. Conner Hawke
10. Iron Fist (sorry, suffered too many embarassing losses - like to Invisible Woman, of all people in an MA match!!!)
11. Daredevil
12. Elektra
13. Wolverine
14. Wonder Woman (not counting her strength/speed)
15. etc.
I personally feel Dragon tops it with Shang Chi, with Shiva no2...while Batgirl and Iron fist tie for third. Bronze Tiger...Batman...Conner tie together. Than comes Daredevil(yes i do think DD slightly better than BP and Cap.). Than BP and later Cap.
I also forgot to add Temugin. In fact, given what he did to Iron Man, I'd don't know if any Marvel Martial Artist short of Gamorra has a better feat. the Gorgan was pretty impressive, too, even without his telepathy, taking out both Wolverine and Elektra.
Let me revise my rankings a bit, and I'll include the mega plot device characters too:
1. Karate Kid (stalemated Superboy, and Daxamites)
2. Gamorra (human stats, but hurt THANOS)
3. Temugin (beat the unholy hell out of Iron Man with his bare hands)
4. Shiva
5. Batgirl
6. Gorgon (Wolverine enemy who beat both Wolverine and Elektra at the same time)
7. Shang Chi (what's his top feat?)
8. Richard Dragon (would have beaten Shiva, but was stopped)
9. Bronze Tiger
10. Black Panther
10. Captain America
10. Batman
13. Conner Hawke
14. Iron Fist (sorry, suffered too many embarassing losses - like to Invisible Woman, of all people in an MA match!!!)
15. Daredevil
16. Elektra
17. Wolverine
18. Wonder Woman (not counting her strength/speed)
19. Ogun
20. Mr. X
Why is Dragon at 8? Dragon did beat Shiva...but did not finish his move cos he did love here. Imagine he beat her and held back at the last moment. He's regrets. He shld be 4. Daredevil could be a 9... he's a bullet-timer, he's reflexes are so good that spidey could not tag him much. He's skills could be better than Cap.
Dragon had her, but the fight wasn't stopped because he loved her, it was stopped by Shiva's guardians. The fight re-started from the top and Shiva beat and killed him. It was a dubious win, but if Dragon were truly better, he would have beaten her the second time. And given how she's beaten him in the past as well, her overall record makes her better.
Batgirl is the only person in DC to convincingly beat Shiva. And she's even better now than she was then.
If you take out Marvel, I have Dragon ranked at #3 (behind Shiva, and Batgirl, who beat Shiva more convincingly than Dragon). I think that's fair.
Originally posted by demigawd
Dragon had her, but the fight wasn't stopped because he loved her, it was stopped by Shiva's guardians. The fight re-started from the top and Shiva beat and killed him. It was a dubious win, but if Dragon were truly better, he would have beaten her the second time. And given how she's beaten him in the past as well, her overall record makes her better.Batgirl is the only person in DC to convincingly beat Shiva. And she's even better now than she was then.
If you take out Marvel, I have Dragon ranked at #3 (behind Shiva, and Batgirl, who beat Shiva more convincingly than Dragon). I think that's fair.
But Shiva did not seem right in her mind when she fought Cass in that issue. I still see Dragon at Shiva's equal at least.
Originally posted by joesha28
But Shiva did not seem right in her mind when she fought Cass in that issue. I still see Dragon at Shiva's equal at least.
I think you misinterpreted it. It was actually Cassie who wasn't in her right mind. Shiva originally killed Cassie, but resurrected her because she said Cassie was holding back because she had a suiccide wish. Cassie felt guilty over killing somebody when she was four years old and purposely threw the fight to die. Shiva told her to clear her mind because she's a different person and they fought again...for real that time. In that fight, with no more holding back, Cassie won.
Now, where you're getting your theory that Shiva might not be in her right mind most likely is from what Cassie said after the fight when she said that Shiva has a deathwish, too - she goes around fighting people looking for her death in EVERY fight she's in. Assuming Cassie is correct, that means that Shiva is like that in ALL of her fights - so she wasn't fighting in a different or altered way.
Originally posted by joesha28your on crack, marvel itself says that captain america is possibly the best hand to hand fighter ever known, how and the hell does DD get ranked higher than him??? he would mop the floor with DD and punisher at the same time.
Why is Dragon at 8? Dragon did beat Shiva...but did not finish his move cos he did love here. Imagine he beat her and held back at the last moment. He's regrets. He shld be 4. Daredevil could be a 9... he's a bullet-timer, he's reflexes are so good that spidey could not tag him much. He's skills could be better than Cap.