Phoenix Force vs. Living Tribunal.

Originally posted by Richrf
I would also like to draw a distinction between thwarting the will of LT and attacking and absorbing LT which means completely defeating LT.

The former occurs occasionally for PIS reasons, the latter is never considered even by The most powerful (Adam Warlock, kovac for example)...

Why is that?

Also it's interesting that Adam with IG never considers directly attacking LT, though he has no qualms of blasting Eternity. Why is that?

It seems that at best there is doubt over whether LT can make IG holders give up the IG, I would say on the balance that LT holds the edge, but anyway this is I think different from the issue on whether IG holders can absorb LT, I think this is why the general concensus is that HOTU feat is meant to be more powerful then IG's feat.

IG - There is doubt that you can defy a LT ruling

HOTU - Forget rulings, I can own LT.

Why is the Korvac incident PIS? There are no high level showings of LT which conclusively allow anyone to come to that conclusion.

Why do you need to draw a distinction between such obviously different things?

Adam may not have directly blasted LT like he did Eternity but he did attack the entire court initially and then went on to square up to him and LT agreed he didnt know how he would fare in a confrontation with Adam. Either way such talk is irrelevant in light of that.

Noones comparing the IG and HOTU because its stated and demonstrated on panel to be greater. A comparison between the two isnt even relevant to the debate.

Originally posted by Richrf
My guess is that, at the universial level, the IG might truly be nearly omnipotent, so even for beings like LT-TOAA- even your beloved PF, you can be as powerful as that, but no better. So when LT faces IG, it's possibly a stalemate

Well im glad you said my guess. Moving on.........

Originally posted by Richrf
I think though there is no way the holder of IG could absorb LT though. That goes beyond the IG.

This is relevant how? No need to establish how they compare with each other when theres on panel demonstrations and a person who has wielded both there to tell us.

Originally posted by Richrf
The PF might match up the HOTU, if we believe Eternity but with HOTU we have no doubt at all that it can absorb LT. With PF it's a possibility.

It's a pity The Stranger's plan didn't happen, if it did, I would agree PF=HOTU.

For now I give adavantage to HOTU.

The Phoenix Force might match up to HOTU based on what? The fact that it hasnt absorbed LT or be stated to be able to? LT regardless of his role by canon and by power isnt conclusively beyond universal forces so how does his absorption give HOTU the advantage?Such a feat is distinctly universal.

You seem to have forgotten about the M'kraan crystal event. Withstanding and holding in check with your own power the power which can simutaneously wipe out all realities, the entire multiverse is far beyond that feat. As stated on panel Phoenix held in check all that is. That on its own is beyond the HOTU feat plus on top of that you have other high level feats such as casually amputating 616s future timeline before recreating 616 in the palm of her hand atom by atom. Phoenix has connected all realities of the multiverse in an energy matrix as detailed in Excalibur. Suddenly absorbing and re-emitting a reality and its fundamental forces doesnt sound so impressive.

Originally posted by Richrf
Yes, it was stated it was going to happen from one character. Which makes it probable, but it's still speculation from a character.

I would definitely prefer feats that actually occured and while depicted on screen, as opposed to feats that supposedly will happen based on statements made by characters. Wouldn't you?

Going by X-men Forever, Eternity would have experienced the previous turnover so with that in mind he is a very reliable source. Galactus' latest bio supports X-men Forever with its talk of how the Phoenix Force allowed Galen to bond with the new Eternity. X-men Forever is canon, Eternity was around to know what hes talking about. When he spoke to Jean it was as a representative of all of the fundamental forces and that should be kept in mind when looking at what he said in an attempt to as he said clarify their position to Jean.

Originally posted by Richrf
As I said I'm ready to accept that LT can be replaced too. Surprising though based on your arguments in the past where you put LT and PF on equal status.

I still believe them to be peers however status and power dont always come hand in hand. With that in mind dont be surprised

Originally posted by Xplosive
But that wasn't canon. So we can forget about it.

As there is only one LT in the multiverse the same rules dont apply. If you take a peek at his bio i think you'll find reference to the "ultimate punishment". Good try tho. I like how you tried to turn that on me lol.

Originally posted by Richrf
And why doesn't GS accept that HOTU has now overtaken PF?

I will when thats conclusively the case. As and when HOTU has better feats i'll consider your point of view. 😉

gs is right on about lt. h has done precious little to make anyone believe he's as powerful as some claim him to be. even in his first appearance strange/ancient one was able to briefly resist him -- without prep! 😱

Beyonder dont even think about it 😂

what do ya know, he didn't!!

😂

why LT was given such a high mantle is weak instead of growing more powerful like the spectre to prove his claims he has infact grown weaker or not grown at all all the characters have either grown weaker or stronger such as the PF has grown stronger while most of hte other cosmics have stayed the same which is pretty sad but i guess there place in the universe is far to defined to power them up or depower them oh and i was talking about alot of comics when i was talking about heads getting cut off and stuff GS 😛 hmm id tell you but you might beat me to the books 😄 ok ok that one was faust and Insane clown posse comics look pretty gooey and other comics like splatter and silent hill look pretty good but yeah im still interested in stuff like ummm infinite crisis or day of vengence 😄 fun stuff!

man, mider, why the hate on for punctuation??!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]Why is the Korvac incident PIS? There are no high level showings of LT which conclusively allow anyone to come to that conclusion.

An all powerful being who always wins would be boring. For dramatic purposes... The same problem also plagues your beloved PF... with lots of low showings... I've enjoyed watching you try to squirm out of them.....

I'm not sure if What ifs count as canon. Normally they don't, but you *speculate* that LT being multiuniversal plays under different rules, but that's just speculation really.

Why do you need to draw a distinction between such obviously different things?

Actually, I draw a parallel between The stranger's plan and HOTU's absorption of LT, particularly because they could be compared.

The problem with pointing at random feats and saying that because X did it, and Y didn't , proved that X is more powerful then Y is that the logic doesn't hold.

Maybe Y could do it, but it was beneath him so he let X save the day. Maybe Y prefered to trick X to do it. Maybe ......

You know the drill, GS, people have attacked PF using similar arguments.

Eg , I've seen people attack PF for not appearing in various crisises, and PF supporters like yourself have to try to explain that away..

Noones comparing the IG and HOTU because its stated and demonstrated on panel to be greater. A comparison between the two isnt even relevant to the debate.

Remember Thanos who wield both powers, was certainly qualified to state which power was greater. Even if you want to argue that he was speculating about the source of the power, certainly he would be more than qualified in making objective judgements of relative power.Certainly if you are willing to take Eternity's word..

By your arguments about LT vs IG, you raised the power of IG, or lowered the power of LT. But either way since HOTU > IG, you have only succueeded in making HOTU even more powerful in my mind.

My own view is that while there was doubt if LT could have won out over IG, other indications such as the LT ruling that prevented the gems from working together showed that LT was indeed supreme over IG. Isn't that a powerful feat?

Well im glad you said my guess. Moving on.........

I'm honest about my speculations, unlike you.....

The Phoenix Force might match up to HOTU based on what? The fact that it hasnt absorbed LT or be stated to be able to?

Yes.

LT regardless of his role by canon and by power isnt conclusively beyond universal forces so how does his absorption give HOTU the advantage?

Hmm interesting, is it your view LT is multiuniversal or not?

You said "As there is only one LT in the multiverse the same rules dont apply." Is that the same as saying he is multiuniversal?

Is it conclusively shown that PF is beyond universal forces? How would one go about doing that? Is there only one PF in the multiverse?

Going by X-men Forever, Eternity would have experienced the previous turnover so with that in mind he is a very reliable source.

Sadly, as reliable as he is, it still doesn't compare to actually having the events depicted on panel. HOTU actually did the deed. PF *might* be able to do it.

It's easy enough for a retcon to show that Eternity was mistaken, or lying ...

Of course a retcon could show that Thanos was mistaken or lying too, about abosrbing LT, but far less likely. Since it was written in first person POV.

Originally posted by Richrf
An all powerful being who always wins would be boring. For dramatic purposes... The same problem also plagues your beloved PF... with lots of low showings... I've enjoyed watching you try to squirm out of them.....

I'm not sure if What ifs count as canon. Normally they don't, but you *speculate* that LT being multiuniversal plays under different rules, but that's just speculation really.

Heres a sufficient entry i found online that I feel would be a great aid to your understanding:

"""""Most, but not all, comic books published by Marvel Comics are set in a shared world known as the Marvel Universe. The canon for this world comprises all the comics not stated to be set in an alternate universe, except those specifically contradicted by later stories. The events may not have occurred exactly as shown, however, owing to the floating timeline.

Alternate universes in Marvel Comics include, for example, the "Ultimate" line of Marvel comics, which have their own canon independent of the core Marvel universe.

Appearances of the Marvel Comics characters in other media are not considered canon.""""""

Each universe has its own canon. Its own set of established rules, histories, origins, nature etc. Therefore when debating about a 616 fight for example if someone brings in feats performed by an “Ultimate” or “What If” universes version of a character the point can be dismissed as not being canon as the feats werent inherent to 616. However when youre dealing with a being who has no counterparts in the multiverse, whose appearances are all from the same being then things such as canon don’t apply as the character doesn’t belong to any specific reality. I hope I cleared that up Richie.

Originally posted by Richrf
Actually, I draw a parallel between The stranger's plan and HOTU's absorption of LT, particularly because they could be compared.

The problem with pointing at random feats and saying that because X did it, and Y didn't , proved that X is more powerful then Y is that the logic doesn't hold.

Maybe Y could do it, but it was beneath him so he let X save the day. Maybe Y prefered to trick X to do it. Maybe ......

You know the drill, GS, people have attacked PF using similar arguments.

Eg , I've seen people attack PF for not appearing in various crisises, and PF supporters like yourself have to try to explain that away..

The Phoenix and LT have different roles to play in creation. Both of them have seen to crisis’ the other hasn’t dealt with and that has been explained away on panel for both of them to a certain extent by on panel clarifications on what their work entails. LT works to maintain a balance of power across the universes of the multiverse. He deals with threats which disrupt this balance and upset the cosmological hierarchy of universes, hence why he’s been involved in things such as the IG and HOTU related titles. That isn’t Phoenixes jurisdiction or as the Phoenix Consciousness put it “Phoenix work”. As stated time and time again Phoenix deals with evolution and the creation cycle of realities. The destruction or usurping of a universe matters little to a Phoenix because in the end, the energy will eventually just be looped back into the White Hot Room “the core of creation” from where it can be emitted back into creation to spark off another reality. However if there’s a threat which impedes the natural evolution of realities, which would put a stop to this loop then that is “Phoenix Work”.

With all that in mind regardless of your analogy LT whilst carrying out his duties hasn’t displayed a power level anywhere near that of Phoenix. So to assume hes more powerful based solely on his role is somewhat naïve.

Originally posted by Richrf
Remember Thanos who wield both powers, was certainly qualified to state which power was greater. Even if you want to argue that he was speculating about the source of the power, certainly he would be more than qualified in making objective judgements of relative power.Certainly if you are willing to take Eternity's word..

By your arguments about LT vs IG, you raised the power of IG, or lowered the power of LT. But either way since HOTU > IG, you have only succueeded in making HOTU even more powerful in my mind.

Thanos was speculating about the nature of the power. His comments weren’t verified by another source unbiased in the title and they haven’t been supported since in various bios which referred to the HOTU. Just like he did with the IG which he also claimed was the power of the supreme being, Thanos just got a bit over-excited. Why are you even trying to argue the point that Thanos should be able to make judgements on the relative power of the IG and HOTU when I said that in this very thread anyway? Thanos having wielded the IG is just recounting past experience just as Eternity is when talking about the turnover of the powers at the end of a reality. Past experience doesn’t equate to speculation.

What my arguments concerning the IG did to affect your opinion on the HOTU is irrelevant in light of the fact that Phoenix still has better feats as aforementioned.

Originally posted by Richrf
My own view is that while there was doubt if LT could have won out over IG, other indications such as the LT ruling that prevented the gems from working together showed that LT was indeed supreme over IG. Isn't that a powerful feat?

No it isn’t a powerful feat because the IG isn’t an entity unto itself. Its just an artifact which serves as a conduit for great power. It requires a user. So LT dismantling an artifact really isn’t a great feat especially when you consider he didn’t know how he’d fare when said artifacts power was being wielded by a sentience. LTs ruling didn’t take affect until after Adam had submitted.

Originally posted by Richrf
I'm honest about my speculations, unlike you.....

No. You’re uninformed and unsupported in your speculation. Moving on……..

Originally posted by Richrf
Hmm interesting, is it your view LT is multiuniversal or not?

You said "As there is only one LT in the multiverse the same rules dont apply." Is that the same as saying he is multiuniversal?

Is it conclusively shown that PF is beyond universal forces? How would one go about doing that? Is there only one PF in the multiverse?

See this is what makes me laugh. Being ignorant to some key issues which determine how you should be weighing up this debate one would think you’d be more open to alternative views instead of criticizing them for not coinciding with your own.

While we’re at it its “multiversal”. To describe LT as multiversal is incorrect imo as that suggests things about his power level which have been shown on panel to be far from the case. LTs a being who is unique in the multiverse as he has no counterpart. LT however has not however displayed power beyond the universal. That is why I say don’t confuse role with power.

The Phoenix Force is a reservoir of energy from which a reality is derived from. The raptor we see is an expression of this creation power shaped by a realities sentient minds. So each reality of the Marvel multiverse has a Phoenix Force however the Phoenix Force derives from the “Phoenix Consciousness” of the “White Hot Room” which surveys Marvels megaverse.

Jean Grey is the human form of the Phoenix she is was created by the Consciousness to carry out its work on the physical plane something it cant do without risks to reality. Jean has been seen reconstructing realities in the palm of her hand and Phoenix has a variety of feats which give it multiversal power. That is power which can be simultaneously applied across multiple realities.

Originally posted by Richrf
Sadly, as reliable as he is, it still doesn't compare to actually having the events depicted on panel. HOTU actually did the deed. PF *might* be able to do it.

It's easy enough for a retcon to show that Eternity was mistaken, or lying ...

Of course a retcon could show that Thanos was mistaken or lying too, about abosrbing LT, but far less likely. Since it was written in first person POV.

Eternity as he stated was representing the fundamental forces affected by the process. The comic showed on multiple occasions that this included LT. The glossary in the back of the comic listed LT as one of the fundamental forces. He wasn’t just given his opinion he said this turnover was what always happens, something he’d know from past experience and something that is supported by Galactus’ bio. However when he showed a visualization of what would happen if Stranger got hold of the power it was as a representative of the fundamental forces after first having convened with them.

Regardless the M’kraan crystal feat is greater anyway 😉

This thread is hilarious.

The whole argument against LT is Korvac surviving a supernova of Earth's sun caused by LT, and then when Korvac survives said supernova, LT inexplicably high tails it saying that "Korvac has survived my ultimate righteous retribution. I've got more important things to do, you guys are on your own Abstracts". 😆

F*ckin' Gladiator can survive a supernova. 😆

This is comedy. 😆

That is what all this "Korvac survived LT's judgement" talk is about on this board?

Are you kidding me?

A guy that absorbed 6 cosmics, including the In-Betweener, survived a supernova.

I can name 15 characters that can survive a supernova, one of which is named Kal-El, another of which is named Norrin Radd.

My Goodness, talk about reaching. 😆

yeah and you call the LT powerful cause of what the whole i got better things to do speech oh wow i tremble at the power of the living jobber FLEE FLEE THE LIVING JOBBER COMES OH NO THE DREADED JUDGEMENT OF THE LIVING JOBBER oh didnt work oh look he's running away said something about how he thinks he left the stove on or whatever. 😮

Originally posted by Mider
yeah and you call the LT powerful cause of what the whole i got better things to do speech oh wow i tremble at the power of the living jobber FLEE FLEE THE LIVING JOBBER COMES OH NO THE DREADED JUDGEMENT OF THE LIVING JOBBER oh didnt work oh look he's running away said something about how he thinks he left the stove on or whatever. 😮

Child, please cease your pathetic anti-Living Tribunal crusade.

Your coddling of the scrotum of any poster making any form of a claim that makes LT in any way, shape, or form look bad is nausea inducing. You even tried to get me banned from this board because I said Living Tribunal would stalemate or defeat Lucifer Morningstar. Please end this obsession.

That scan proves nothing.

Living Tribunal showed up, deemed due to Korvac's actions Earth needed to be destroyed, blew up the Sun with the intent of the resultant explosion destroying Earth, and Korvac protected the Earth from the supernova using the power of the 6 cosmics he'd absorbed.

Nowhere does Living Tribunal directly attack Korvac and Korvac is unphased, nor does Korvac EVER stand up to Living Tribunal directly. Also, it's not shown that Korvac is the source of the forcefield, an in the next few panels the Abstract Death comes forward and says this has come to pass by his own machinations and the Shaper of Worlds who has conspired with Korvac is on the scene. For all we know Death or Shaper could have shielded Earth, it's not depicted or stated what the origin of the forcefield was in the scan, Tribunal simply speculated and wondered if the power of Korvac had grown to the extent he could shield Earth from a Supernova. (Also note that when it shows Korvac and Shaper on Earth, there is normal sunlight though the sun has gone nova).

This instance is equivalent to Silver Surfer blowing up a nuclear reactor to kill the Punisher, and Frank is able to hide in a bomb shelter and survive, so then Surfer, inexplicably, turns to Spiderman and Daredevil and says:

"Well, I tried, and it didn't work. You guys are on your own."

Only in Korvac's case, the bomb shelter is possibly self created, but not conclusively shown to be so.

Anyone without an agenda and with deductive reasoning can see that clearly.

scrotum . . .?

😑

Originally posted by leonidas
scrotum . . .?

😑

I was trying to eloquently (and covertly) call Mider a "dickrider" of anyone who makes an anti-Living Tribunal comment without coming out and blatantly saying it. (It's a slang term.)

Originally posted by illadelph12
This thread is hilarious.

The whole argument against LT is Korvac surviving a supernova of Earth's sun caused by LT, and then when Korvac survives said supernova, LT inexplicably high tails it saying that "Korvac has survived my ultimate righteous retribution. I've got more important things to do, you guys are on your own Abstracts". 😆

F*ckin' Gladiator can survive a supernova. 😆

This is comedy. 😆

That is what all this "Korvac survived LT's judgement" talk is about on this board?

Are you kidding me?

A guy that absorbed 6 cosmics, including the In-Betweener, survived a supernova.

I can name 15 characters that can survive a supernova, one of which is named Kal-El, another of which is named Norrin Radd.

My Goodness, talk about reaching. 😆

The point of the matter isnt that he survived Ill, but the fact that LT deemed it his "ultimate punishment" and said there was nothing more in his power he could do.

For all we know LT could be limited to that level of output as per the orders of his master. LT has never displayed a greater output of power and during cosmic threats he has never personally dirtied his hands but has instead enlisted the aid of other cosmic powers.

Until something else is shown or stated otherwise, his ultimate punishment is causing a supernova with a single force bolt. An act also detailed in his bio:

http://www.silver-surfer.us/Character_Bios/livingtribunal.htm

Quite impressive. 😉

😆

Please GS. Come on bruh.

This is my problem with this "canon evidence" movement that has afflicted the board as of late. This instance and the way it's being interpreted as 'evidence' of LT not being powerful is a farce. The terms "ultimate", "invincible" and "unstoppable" get tossed around in comicdom like e pills at a rave. It means nothing more than the writer wanting to be dramatic in the dialogue.

Tribunal blowing up the Sun to destroy Earth and Korvac, and Korvac erecting a forcefield (or Death or Shaper of Worlds erecting a forcefield, the origin of the field isn't depicted) to protect the Earth from the explosion of the Sun, does not in any way shape or form allude to the extent or limits of LT's power. It just means someone (either Shaper, Korvac, or Death) can erect a forcefield that can withstand a supernova.

If I throw my shoe at a book in an attempt to get the book to fall over and crush an ant, but the ant is able to survive the book falling over on it, and then I inexplicably give up on the endeavor, does that mean the ant is beyond my ability to kill it and I don't posess the power to simply walk over and step on the ant directly if I so chose to do it?

LT still quarantined the entire universe after that incident. What would have stopped him from simply sealing off Korvac independently so he couldn't effect the rest of the universe? It's obvious LT still had the power to erect a field Korvac was powerless to penetrate, it's stated and depicted on the same page.

Plot induced stupidity gets the gasface. 👇

This is too slippery of a slope man. You can't use plot driven instances of fictional events ('feats'😉 as concrete evidence of the outcome of hypothetical situations. Especially in direct inference to characters like Living Tribunal and The One Above All whose very premise within the fiction lends to them not having many 'feats' in the first place, let alone appearances at all.

LT.