Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The replacement of the abstracts isnt just a plan of Strangers. According to X-men Forever (more specifically Eternity) its something which occurs every creation cycle.
No dispute here. You are just repeating what was said.
While this replacement is a part of nature, Strangers plans however were not. The Stranger sought to access the Force to bring about the end of the cycle billions of years ahead of schedule whilst using the power to protect himself during the turnover allowing him to become the supreme being. That is very much against the natural order (as stated by Eternity in my scans if you'd care to refer back) and is the reason Eternity intervened and appealed to Jean. With all that in mind your point about it not being a power struggle as opposed to a part of the natural order is somewhat moot.
We do agree here. When it's part of nature order, the abstracts will not resist. If it is unnatural they will resist. The dispute is whether it will be harder if they resist. With Thanos+HOTU, they definitely resisted.
If the stranger's plan worked, I would say we have an equalavant feat by PF. But it never happened. So we don't know.
We do have some evidence *based on what Eternity* says that PF could achieve a lesser feat (when the abstracts don't resist) when it was part of nature....
According to Eternity LT is very much affected by the process. He along with the other abstracts are not only depicted by Eternity as being at the mercy of the power should Strangers plans ever come to fruition, but their roles are usurped and re-allocated.
I'm open to the idea that LT being affected. However, Eternity is not an infalliable info source. So we should be wary of taking that as gospel.
You have argued that what Thanos says when he holds the HOTU should not be taken as gospel, surely eternity who is magnitudes less powerful, should come under the same rule?
How impressive defeating LT is , is something that is very much in debate on these forums. LTs biggest on panel feat is to cause a star to go supernova, something he stated to be his "ultimate punishment".
LT's biggest feat? GS i respect your knowledge, but a lots of times your bias shows so clearly it's not funny.
Hmm even a supporter of PF or in this case someone who wants to diminish LT to make PF look better, should be more objective than that. By any measure, You actually selected one of LT's lowest performance.
Any of LT's performance against IG, even interpreted in the worse light by you, surpasses making the sun go supernove.
If we are talking low performances, there are many PF ones too I believe.
In support of that showing LT agreed with Adam Warlock (in Infinity Watch 1) that he didnt know how his power would stand up to just the IG which itself is just a conduit for universal forces. Korvac withstood LTs power with merely the amassed power of 6 below abstract level cosmics.
The Korvac supernove issue is actually a low end performance, since we are talking about biggest feats here (and Whatifs generally don't count anyway), let's disregard that.
As for IG versus LT..
I actually read that issue, it is written from the POV of Adam Warlock, and as strange as it seems, for an omniscient being- Adam himself from page to page waffles about whether LT could best him or not. At some points he thinks not, at some points he thinks so. Most of the time he isn't sure.
However, the fact that there is some doubt to the issue, tells us that LT is indeed powerful, since there is no doubt at all that IG holders can ignore everything else even if combined.
I would also like to draw a distinction between thwarting the will of LT and attacking and absorbing LT which means completely defeating LT.
The former occurs occasionally for PIS reasons, the latter is never considered even by The most powerful (Adam Warlock, kovac for example)...
Why is that?
Also it's interesting that Adam with IG never considers directly attacking LT, though he has no qualms of blasting Eternity. Why is that?
It seems that at best there is doubt over whether LT can make IG holders give up the IG, I would say on the balance that LT holds the edge, but anyway this is I think different from the issue on whether IG holders can absorb LT, I think this is why the general concensus is that HOTU feat is meant to be more powerful then IG's feat.
IG - There is doubt that you can defy a LT ruling
HOTU - Forget rulings, I can own LT.
My guess is that, at the universial level, the IG might truly be nearly omnipotent, so even for beings like LT-TOAA- even your beloved PF, you can be as powerful as that, but no better. So when LT faces IG, it's possibly a stalemate
I think though there is no way the holder of IG could absorb LT though. That goes beyond the IG.
The PF might match up the HOTU, if we believe Eternity but with HOTU we have no doubt at all that it can absorb LT. With PF it's a possibility.
It's a pity The Stranger's plan didn't happen, if it did, I would agree PF=HOTU.
For now I give adavantage to HOTU.
It would remain speculation if it wasnt stated it was going to happen.
Yes, it was stated it was going to happen from one character. Which makes it probable, but it's still speculation from a character.
I would definitely prefer feats that actually occured and while depicted on screen, as opposed to feats that supposedly will happen based on statements made by characters. Wouldn't you?
You are incorrect my friend. In a variety of scenes from the mini LT and the abstracts are depicted on panel as the beings affected by the process.
Yes, Eternity is describing what might happen.
On top of that all of the gathered beings are listed in the back of the comic, something ive also produced a scan of. LTs name is listed. It is not speculation im afraid.
As I said I'm ready to accept that LT can be replaced too. Surprising though based on your arguments in the past where you put LT and PF on equal status.