Shame on you for stealing my sweetheart Zett Jukassa thread idea.
As for him Zett being the uber master to Luke, yeah.. Zett is amazing although there is always an incredible distance in power in jedi comparison.
I mean, Zett probably had more time to train and that is the deciding factor, it's also the reason why the amazing Yoda could kill everyone but didn't.
/\ Star Wars in a nutshell.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Wait, so you think Nomi had more raw power then Luke or something? Point is that she had just as little training as Luke. Luke was a farmboy, but Nomi was anti-weapons for a long time and refused to pick up a lightsaber until it was required to defend others.Zett didn't escape Order 66. He got blasted to pieces just shortly after it started. The Younglings lasted alomst as long.
Actually, it's possible that Ulic, Kun, Nomi and others had more raw power than Luke. Luke simply had one parent who was genetically modified and a mother who wasn't even Force sensitive. Since midi-chlorian ratings weren't even used in Nomi's time, it would be foolish to assume that earlier force users are weaker or stronger than Luke just because Anakin had the highest midi-chlorian count of the PT era.
Bottom line? Can't argue raw power without knowing their midi-chlorian levels. Hell, you can't argue Luke's, even with pseudo-genetic mumbojumbo. I think it's ridiculous to compare Nomi to Luke when Nomi had a jedi husband, lived around the Order when it was active and well, and learned techniques from a jedi master apparently.
Luke is a farmboy who had never seen the force or a lightsaber until he was at least 20 years old. Go figure.
And on Zett... So glad you took the one statement I made that didn't have any real weight behind it and attacked it. Zett slipped out of the jedi temple during Order 66 and was able to ambush a Clone Trooper patrol. While the elements of his escape aren't known and don't really factor into his abilities, the fact that he fought incredibly well for a youngling does.
And I highly doubt that Zett died before the younglings, Glentract. The younglings were easily the first to die, since no one had bothered to hide them or protect them. Wouldn't you think so? Let me take that one step further- the jedi temple was shown in a scene featuring Padme and C-3PO, where it was smoking in the distance. I have the same pic in my signature right now. It was clearly daylight ( I have the pic on my home computer.) When Senator Organa realizes something is wrong and arrives, it's clearly night. So unless Coruscant has a fifteen, twenty minute rotation, several HOURS past since the younglings died and the temple was attacked, and the time when Zett died.
Anything else?
Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Actually, it's possible that Ulic, Kun, Nomi and others had more raw power than Luke. Luke simply had one parent who was genetically modified and a mother who wasn't even Force sensitive. Since midi-chlorian ratings weren't even used in Nomi's time, it would be foolish to assume that earlier force users are weaker or stronger than Luke just because Anakin had the highest midi-chlorian count of the PT era.Bottom line? Can't argue raw power without knowing their midi-chlorian levels. Hell, you can't argue Luke's, even with pseudo-genetic mumbojumbo. I think it's ridiculous to compare Nomi to Luke when Nomi had a jedi husband, lived around the Order when it was active and well, and learned techniques from a jedi master apparently.
Luke is a farmboy who had never seen the force or a lightsaber until he was at least 20 years old. Go figure.
Luke was 18 in ANH 😛
Even if we look at Ulic with all his Jedi training, greater access to teachers, better access to Jedi knowledge, and his Sith Amulets he is weaker then Luke, who still hasn't reached he full potential by Dark Nest. I find it very unlikely that Nomi had a greater potential then Ulic. Luke should logically have a greater force potential.
Luke at least knew how to use weapons. He was able to kill several stormtroopers in ANH and didn't need any instruction with the quad laser turrets in ANH either. Nomi was anti-weapons.
Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
And on Zett... So glad you took the one statement I made that didn't have any real weight behind it and attacked it. Zett slipped out of the jedi temple during Order 66 and was able to ambush a Clone Trooper patrol. While the elements of his escape aren't known and don't really factor into his abilities, the fact that he fought incredibly well for a youngling does.
Lets look at the other one then. Zett killed 5 or 6 Clone Troopers. Luke killed at least 10 in ANH and then shot down two tie fighters. Also, in ESB Luke killed another 10 or so guys with his blaster. Sure this doesn't help saber skills directly, but he's also survived a fight with Vader twice at this point. And if we compare how Luke fought next to ANH Obi-wan, they are about equal. Can Zett defeat Obi-wan?
Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
And I highly doubt that Zett died before the younglings, Glentract. The younglings were easily the first to die, since no one had bothered to hide them or protect them. Wouldn't you think so? Let me take that one step further- the jedi temple was shown in a scene featuring Padme and C-3PO. It was clearly daylight ( I have the pic on my home computer.) When Senator Organa realizes something is wrong and arrives, it's clearly night. So unless Coruscant has a fifteen, twenty minute rotation, several HOURS past since the younglings died and the temple was attacked, and the time when Zett died.Anything else?
Janus, look at when Anakin and the 501st march into the Temple. It's dark as can be at that time. I suggest you also look at the seen with Padme again. It's clearly night.
Look at that seen against too. The Youglings were hidden in the Council Chamber.
Luke was 18 in ANH 😛
Was he? Where did I get 20 from then?
Even if we look at Ulic with all his Jedi training, greater access to teachers, better access to Jedi knowledge, and his Sith Amulets he is weaker then Luke, who still hasn't reached he full potential by Dark Nest. I find it very unlikely that Nomi had a greater potential then Ulic. Luke should logically have a greater force potential.
I'd really, really like to say at this point that Luke shouldn't be that powerful, since his father who had more potential couldn't do anything anywhere near him, but that would be spitting in the face of evidence.
In any case, working with what we do have, I submit that it's impossible to determine raw potential without a midi-chlorian count. Even when Ulic seems less powerful than Luke (And Luke is pretty old by Dark Nest, btw) this doesn't preclude that he has equal or more potential. Same with Nomi. So we really shouldn't be comparing them as you have, since we have nothing to work with.
Luke at least knew how to use weapons. He was able to kill several stormtroopers in ANH and didn't need any instruction with the quad laser turrets in ANH either. Nomi was anti-weapons.
Eh? My four year old cousin can shoot a gun, and the quad laser turret does seem a bit unusual, but the working of a gun turret doesn't equate anything but feat wars. I could say next that Nomi can sew and dance, but those don't relate to force potential either.
Lets look at the other one then. Zett killed 5 or 6 Clone Troopers. Luke killed at least 10 in ANH and then shot down two tie fighters. Also, in ESB Luke killed another 10 or so guys with his blaster. Sure this doesn't help saber skills directly, but he's also survived a fight with Vader twice at this point.
Numbers of those killed doesn't really add up like that, Glentract. Zett was on screen for all of a minute. Luke starred in three movies. Go figure.
And my original point was that Zett looked and acted pretty bad ass for a mere padawan. He's been jedi-trained and did not hesitate to kill. The fact that he was able to make it to the landing pad makes me as bit impressed; Luke wasn't exactly a stealthy, deadly sort in the OT.
And if we compare how Luke fought next to ANH Obi-wan, they are about equal. Can Zett defeat Obi-wan?
This was ridiculous to state. You are basically saying that Luke = Obi-Wan, without proof, despite evidence and perceptions to the contrary, and then saying can Zett > Obi-Wan? Horrible logic. Don't try it again, please.
Janus, look at when Anakin and the 501st march into the Temple. It's dark as can be at that time. I suggest you also look at the seen with Padme again. It's clearly night.
You're right about the marching scene, I might have been wrong. I'll double check tonight.
Look at that seen against too. The Youglings were hidden in the Council Chamber.
I wouldn't call that hidden. And if the jedi felt that the temple was in danger, they should have rationally sent someone to watch over the children, prferably many someones. Therefore I submit that the death of the younglings was very early into the siege.
Luke from the beginning, then.
First I've heard of this. Alright, suppose you're right. Suppose that Anakin is born of the Force; does this mean Anakin > all? Even if the Prophecy was in fact an instance of the force creating a being for the purpose of maintaining balance, this leaves questions unanswered:
- How is Anakin the ONLY case of this?
- How is Anakin neccessarily the best/strongest/wisest/most able saber/force user of all time because he was born of the Force? Would it not make more sense, assuming the Force meant for him to be uber perfect, for him to have been born good instead of shallow and tempermental? We know that Anakin has the highest midi-chlorian count in the PT times, but we don't know the midi-chlorian counts of later or earlier times. How can we simply say Anakin is the pinnacle of all raw force potential without the numbers to back it up?
- Anakin was defeated by Dooku, and later on by Obi-Wan. Clearly raw potential does not equate victory. It does not totally outstrip those of better intelligence or experience.
anakin later killed both Dooku and Obi-wan, and considering he's the only Chosen One, chosen to bring balance and destroy the Sith...in the EU, there's no question of the sKywalkers being more in tune with the Force than any one else...at three occasions at least, they became physical, pure conduits of the Force. And who says the Jedi didn't record midichlorians back in the day?
Explaining the Force and its intentions is like attempting to explain God....it's impossible, completely. Perhaps it needed Anakin that way to be redeemed by his son and kill Palpatine
Originally posted by Lightsnake
[B]anakin later killed both Dooku and Obi-wan, and considering he's the only Chosen One, chosen to bring balance and destroy the Sith
Anakin's killing of Dooku was extremely fortunate and many consider it to be more Dooku being careless and holding back then Anakin being a sabergod. And if you consider Obi-Wan's death as a legitimate kill, that's ridiculous. He clearly let himself die. My five year old cousin can see that. Neither of those answer the questions I'm getting at in any case.
...in the EU, there's no question of the sKywalkers being more in tune with the Force than any one else...at three occasions at least, they became physical, pure conduits of the Force.
I could argue that others did the same. In particular, the Exile and Nihilus are considered wounds in the Force itself. Their nature is unparelled. Should I assume they are the anti-Chosen One and thus able to pwn all? The Skywalkers may have become extremely close with the Force, but does this mean that only they can? Hm. I think that needs concrete proof before we make that kind of assumption.
And who says the Jedi didn't record midichlorians back in the day?
Not one mention of them in older sources. Not one in KOTOR, or TOTJ, or anything. Are you making the unsupported assertion that they did have the ability to locate and record midi-chlorians? Including the Sith? No, this doesn't make any sense.
Explaining the Force and its intentions is like attempting to explain God....it's impossible, completely. Perhaps it needed Anakin that way to be redeemed by his son and kill Palpatine
This is unsupported as well. You've basically said we cannot ever know the intentions of the Force, yet earlier you're claiming that Anakin is the Chosen One of a defined and well known prophecy that came true, and that his descendants became "conduits" of the Force itself. It would seem to me that the Force CAN be understood by your own words and arguments, and apparently it only becomes mysterious when it calls your observations into question.
And please answer my questions directly next time: How does the prophecy support Anakin > all in raw force potential?
In the novelization it's cut clear: Dooku doesn't hold back. And if Obi-wan could have defeated Vader, he would have.
Now, we KNOW the SKywalkers have become living conduits of the Force, drawing power from every thing in the galaxy, we know Jacen became an avatar of the Force and Anakin. Would Lucas count as proof? He's confirmed everything on the OT DVDs
The Prophecy doesn't support Anakin>All in Raw potential. Story evidence and Lucas on the other hand, do. Commentaries and NEC, along with Rogue Planet and some other books as sources