Revan vs Exar Kun (without Sith amulets/power amplification)

lmao

You didn't even rationally (Or maturely, for that matter) address anything I said. The points are thus:

1- You liberally insult characters like Vodo and Odan-Urr, but Mace Windu and Yoda and Luke (Who all fought against Sidious, your favorite character and your virtual reason for being here) are all described as "the greatest (blank) of all time" or "the biggest threat to the dark side of all time" and other grandiose statements which are, of course, echoed only by you. You stack up those who threaten Sidious and tear down those who we pit Sidious against. Clear bias. Don't even try and deny it.

2- Really? I find it hard to believe that an entire planet of sentients had never seen or experienced the Force before. Huh. Onderon must just be a dead spot in the galaxy then. Nadd must have brought the Force there, for sure.

3- lol... For one thing, a ship that predates the Death Star by millenia and can make a star blow up is a far deadlier device, especially since it has very quick execution and is force powered, thus costing less resources.

Second, Sidious isn't canonically tied to any one style as having mastered it, and Nick Gillard says that Sidious can pwn all (Which is clearly not the case since Yoda and Mace both pwned him in combat, along with DE Luke.) So therefore NG + Guide = unsupported bullshit.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
lmao

You didn't even rationally (Or maturely, for that matter) address anything I said. The points are thus:

1- You liberally insult characters like Vodo and Odan-Urr, but Mace Windu and Yoda and Luke (Who all fought against Sidious, your favorite character and your virtual reason for being here) are all described as "the greatest (blank) of all time" or "the biggest threat to the dark side of all time" and other grandiose statements which are, of course, echoed only by you. You stack up those who threaten Sidious and tear down those who we pit Sidious against. Clear bias. Don't even try and deny it.

2- Really? I find it hard to believe that an entire planet of sentients had never seen or experienced the Force before. Huh. Onderon must just be a dead spot in the galaxy then. Nadd must have brought the Force there, for sure.

3- lol... For one thing, a ship that predates the Death Star by millenia and can make a star blow up is a far deadlier device, especially since it has very quick execution and is force powered, thus costing less resources.

Second, Sidious isn't canonically tied to any one style as having mastered it, and Nick Gillard says that Sidious can pwn all (Which is clearly not the case since Yoda and Mace both pwned him in combat, along with DE Luke.) So therefore NG + Guide = unsupported bullshit.

1. Please. I could have a quote from Lucas and noone'd listen. Did Mace or Yoda ever turn their backs on a firefight to lecture a kid? Did they ever made such glaring teaching errors as Vodo did? Did they ever train Crado? Why don't you crack open the visual dictionary or the ROTS novelization? Here's the page even: 396. Want that Mace one next?

2. Just like the Sith who worshipped the Dark Jedi as Gods? Hell, the NEC even says how Nadd took Onderon. Section: "The Shadow of Freedon Nadd." It was a primitive back water system in a much earlier galaxy.

3. How about the Sun Crusher which obliterates solar systems? Sadow's star feats failed to do much damage to the surrounding worlds.

4. NG only DESIGNED Sidious's style. And lookie lookie: e had learned the esoteric martial arts of Teräs Käsi and Yad Hadíd; he had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber. He knew the secrets of Quey'tek and the Doppelgänger, Malacia and Mortichro, Mechu Duru and Lilakhrin, and countless more. He was deeply immersed in the thousands of years of traditions from thousands of cults and sects. He was a specter of the past – a phantom menace – the revenge of the Sith.

That's from his bio, in several places.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Please. I could have a quote from Lucas and noone'd listen. Did Mace or Yoda ever turn their backs on a firefight to lecture a kid? Did they ever made such glaring teaching errors as Vodo did? Did they ever train Crado? Why don't you crack open the visual dictionary or the ROTS novelization? Here's the page even: 396. Want that Mace one next?

So his one instance of turning his back is suddenly proof of mass idiocy in the jedi order? By this logic Sidious should be the biggest idiot in Sith history, since he was benchpressed into a reactor by a one handed cripple in a breathing suit.

And glaring teaching errors? The PT Council has PLENTY of huge errors.

1- Battle of Geonosis. Most of the jedi are trained in the ineffectual Form VI style, which results in almost all of them being killed. This is only compounded with Mace's horrible leadership and tactics, where he spreads the ranks of the jedi and sneaks up on Dooku, but puts a blade to Jango's throat and doesn't kill either one of them at that point. The whole mission was a botch.

2- The PT Council's strict, unyielding doctrine and disapproval of personal attachment alienated Anakin and MADE Darth Vader. I'd call that flawed teachings.

3- Reemergence of the Sith: to quote Ki-Adi-Mundi: "That's impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millenium!" This really sounds like a jedi council that has its shit together. They didn't even initially accept or prepare for the possibility of the Sith surviving.

Preach to me again about faulty teachings, LS?

2. Just like the Sith who worshipped the Dark Jedi as Gods? Hell, the NEC even says how Nadd took Onderon. Section: "The Shadow of Freedon Nadd." It was a primitive back water system in a much earlier galaxy.

I've read that Nadd defeated an armed force and went on to conquer Onderon and later Dxun.

3. How about the Sun Crusher which obliterates solar systems? Sadow's star feats failed to do much damage to the surrounding worlds.

Uh... Since when does the Death Star = the Suncrusher? I was comparing Sadow's ship with the DS. Yes, the Suncrucher is arguably more uber.

4. NG only DESIGNED Sidious's style. And lookie lookie: e had learned the esoteric martial arts of Teräs Käsi and Yad Hadíd; he had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber. He knew the secrets of Quey'tek and the Doppelgänger, Malacia and Mortichro, Mechu Duru and Lilakhrin, and countless more. He was deeply immersed in the thousands of years of traditions from thousands of cults and sects. He was a specter of the past – a phantom menace – the revenge of the Sith.

That's from his bio, in several places.

"He was deeply immersed in the thousands of years of traditions from thousands of cults and sects."

Wow. As if that isn't ridiculously impossible and hyperbole-like. So Sidious is thousands of years old?

Or does that statement not support anything? Do you understand how much time and energy and drive it would take to absorb and master "thousands of years of tradition", let alone all those other supposed powers he has?

Realistically, Sidious would have to predate Bane just to have learned all of that to the fullest extent. Something which isn't true.

" e had learned the esoteric martial arts of Teräs Käsi and Yad Hadíd; he had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber. He knew the secrets of Quey'tek and the Doppelgänger, Malacia and Mortichro, Mechu Duru and Lilakhrin, and countless more"

He learned the 'esoteric' martial arts of Teraes Kaesi? Is this why Mace kicked his lightsaber away? Is this why he couldn't overpower or outmanipulate Yoda or Mace in close personal combat? There's a mercenary in the Medstar series who mastered the fighting form, and he could beat Jedi in unarmed combat. Sidious has displayed no such feats or inclinations.

"He had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber"? Which lightsaber? Not his, since he got put on his ass by Mace Windu, schooled by Yoda, and pwned by Luke "WTFarmboy" Skywalker in DE, who had barely any training in comparison with the latter two, and by all logic Sidious should have been better at this point. Apparently this claim is unsubstantiated and possibly untrue.

And these "countless other" techniques... how did they help him survive? Oops. They didn't. He got challenged and pwned. Hell, Ragnos didn't get challenged and pwned by anyone in an Empire of Sith. Kun didn't get pwned in the challenges he accepted. Far from it. I guess this makes Sidious < Kun & Ragnos.

All this knowledge and so-called mastery and he still sucks. Wow. What a worthless Sith Lord.

1. Yeah, the same cyborg who'd been his dog? The same cyborg who was the Chosen One destined to kill him? And Arca turned his back in a firefight to lecture his student.

2. Yes, because it's SO easy to behead your former best friend. Read Shatterpoint. And do you have any idea WHY they had that no attatchment rule? I could provide numerous examples, one of whihc resulted in Qui-Gon nearly falling when his beloved died.

3. Ki was a recent council member. And considering the probable extinction of the Sith at Ruusan....hell, the Jedi thought Bane was dead before Ruusan.

4. Yeah? I'd like to see this source where Nadd takes on an army.

5. Can't attack the info, so you attack the phrasing? He was immersed in the knowledge of thousands of years, that simple. And that statement is of the source. Yours is not.

And because we don't see it, it isn't true! Right. And Want the quote where Mace is called one of the greatest swordsmen in the Order? And Yoda as the greatest enemy the darkness ever faced?

I provide a source and it's suddenly dismissed. We know Palpatine killed plenty JEdi in the purge, was considered incredibly powerful by Dooku, knwon to be so powerful in the dark side, war itself'd become his weapon. By the way, you incapable of reading where Luke became an avatar of the Force or where all the galaxy's force sensitives felt the duel? Luke is unquestionably uber.

That stuff is official, your opinion of it is not. C'mon, when'd other Sith suck the lives of millions? When'd they create force storms or use force lightning to wipe out small armies?

What a worthless Sith Kun is, killing old men and getting owned by toddlers.

Did you just not at all see the points I was getting at? Hm. I never thought I'd see a human mind work completely out of logic before. you sure proved me wrong on that point at least.

It's just hilarious: Post passages and people will still try to tear it down...I could have a Lucas quote and it'd never be accepted for some reason for another

It's just hilarious: Post passages and people will still try to tear it down...I could have a Lucas quote and it'd never be accepted for some reason for another

The same thing you've been doing with narrative descriptions in GAotS?

Wow, I never knew someone could set themselves up for that so well. It's almost back to the day of suffixing "your mom" on the end of statements and questions.

Wow, considering that godlike thing applied to one part of that comic, is duplicated for Luke and Palpatine and goes in length to describe Palpatine...Unlike GAotS, it shows Palpatine's mastery rather well...and of all the Sith and Jedi. And describes them as a clash of the titans. And mentions every force sensitive felt it.

Yeah, nice ignoring that

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wow, considering that godlike thing applied to one part of that comic, is duplicated for Luke and Palpatine and goes in length to describe Palpatine...Unlike GAotS, it shows Palpatine's mastery rather well...and of all the Sith and Jedi. And describes them as a clash of the titans. And mentions every force sensitive felt it.

Yeah, nice ignoring that

Nice ignoring how their power is described as "titanic," how their teachings created generations of powerful sith, of which Sidious is one in a long chain. How they are the at "the zenith of Sith power." How they are described as fearsome enemies that would make the force users of later generations look like children (according to Kreia), how the Luke describes that Ragnos would take the combined might of the entirety of the Jedi Academy (years after he beat Sidious) to defeat, and then proceeds to send the entire force to Korriban.

Nice ignoring facts that span the Chronological Guide, TOTJ, KotOR, JK:A, and is referenced through numerous post-ROTJ works, including Dark Empire themselves.

Don't start with me about ignoring. I already told you about mastery of all Jedi and Sith being moot because it was later retconned and extended the history of the Sith far longer than it had originally been planned. And then Janus already pointed out to unlikelihood of the circumstance. You've done nothing to counter it.

You've propped up those enemies of Sidious and degraded the enemies of the others, even though the PT Jedi Order showed some of the biggest bonehead moves ever.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Nice ignoring how their power is described as "titanic," how their teachings created generations of powerful sith, of which Sidious is one in a long chain. How they are the at "the zenith of Sith power." How they are described as fearsome enemies that would make the force users of later generations look like children (according to Kreia), how the Luke describes that Ragnos would take the combined might of the entirety of the Jedi Academy (years after he beat Sidious) to defeat, and then proceeds to send the entire force to Korriban.

Nice ignoring facts that span the Chronological Guide, TOTJ, KotOR, JK:A, and is referenced through numerous post-ROTJ works, including Dark Empire themselves.

Don't start with me about ignoring. I already told you about mastery of all Jedi and Sith being moot because it was later retconned and extended the history of the Sith far longer than it had originally been planned. And then Janus already pointed out to unlikelihood of the circumstance. You've done nothing to counter it.

You've propped up those enemies of Sidious and degraded the enemies of the others, even though the PT Jedi Order showed some of the biggest bonehead moves ever.

1. At the time of that empire which fell. You know something? YOU keep ignoring a description of Sidious as godlike, YOU keep ignoring how Kun is downplayed horribly in the EU by Stackpole and Zahn, you keep ignoring how Sidious and Luke's duel was called a clash of the titans felt by every force sensitive in the galaxy.

2. Cute. when were there references to the Ancients' power in DE? They created Ulic and some of the TOTJ setting, that's it.

3. and you failed to show ANY proof of this retcon bull. It didn't extend it, the newest Chronology guide shortened it! Dark Empire never MENTIONED the Ancient Sith Empire's length! it's now two thousand years and DE's still as strong as it ever was, even STRENGTHENED by the new Chronology and Dark Side source book.

4. As opposed to the degrading bull of Sidious himself and the propping up of people who never did a thing like Vodo and Odan?

1. At the time of that empire which fell. You know something? YOU keep ignoring a description of Sidious as godlike, YOU keep ignoring how Kun is downplayed horribly in the EU by Stackpole and Zahn, you keep ignoring how Sidious and Luke's duel was called a clash of the titans felt by every force sensitive in the galaxy.

You mean how Kun downplayed BEFORE TOTJ was written by Anderson?

And because a spirit who managed to take over the body of one of the most powerful students in the academy and held Luke at mercy until he had help from the rest of the academy and Vodo is being "downplayed horribly"?

I could give that fact to 99.999% of the fans and they wouldn't agree that he was downplayed.

2. Cute. when were there references to the Ancients' power in DE? They created Ulic and some of the TOTJ setting, that's it.

Again, because DE came BEFORE TOTJ. Just like how Mace Windu was never referenced ONCE in the OT, does that mean he doesn't exist? Your so called "best swordsman"?

3. and you failed to show ANY proof of this retcon bull. It didn't extend it, the newest Chronology guide shortened it! Dark Empire never MENTIONED the Ancient Sith Empire's length! it's now two thousand years and DE's still as strong as it ever was, even STRENGTHENED by the new Chronology and Dark Side source book.

How does shortening the Sith Empire to 2000 years strengthen your argument, that just seems to show me that Sidious only had the knowledge of the Brotherhood of Darkness and beyond. The later canon indicates that the peak of the Sith Empire came before that, also known as the ancient sith. 'Kay? There's your retcon.

4. As opposed to the degrading bull of Sidious himself and the propping up of people who never did a thing like Vodo and Odan?

Have you ever considered how I was doing that to mock your ridiculous assertions about other characters in your pursuit to be a Sidious apologist? Your reading comprehension needs some work, man. 🙁

Originally posted by Illustrious
You mean how Kun downplayed BEFORE TOTJ was written by Anderson?

And because a [b]spirit who managed to take over the body of one of the most powerful students in the academy and held Luke at mercy until he had help from the rest of the academy and Vodo is being "downplayed horribly"?

I could give that fact to 99.999% of the fans and they wouldn't agree that he was downplayed.

Again, because DE came BEFORE TOTJ. Just like how Mace Windu was never referenced ONCE in the OT, does that mean he doesn't exist? Your so called "best swordsman"?

How does shortening the Sith Empire to 2000 years strengthen your argument, that just seems to show me that Sidious only had the knowledge of the Brotherhood of Darkness and beyond. The later canon indicates that the peak of the Sith Empire came before that, also known as the ancient sith. 'Kay? There's your retcon.

Have you ever considered how I was doing that to mock your ridiculous assertions about other characters in your pursuit to be a Sidious apologist? Your reading comprehension needs some work, man. 🙁 [/B]

1. Umm...the Hand of Thrawn Duology and I, Jedi were written AFTER the JA Trilogy. And as a spirit, he was stronger than he was in life, he was NOT a normal force ghost. And ok, he didn't posses Kyp, he tricked him and TOGETHER and together alone, they bested Luke when they had the beennfit of him holding back and being surpised. Kunw as trapped before Vodo and Luke got involved. Just look at the scene where Mara confronts him

2. So DE came before TOTJ, So what? Is TOTJ invalid because of KOTOR? After all, there are quite a few inconsistencies! Should all DE's expressions on Palp's power-and a lot of it is recent, including what I've posted- and stored in the Chronology and Dark Side sourcebook....two recent items. DE has not been retconned. TOTJ elements have. And Qui-Gon is never referenced in OT either, point?

3. you mean the same Sidious who chilled with the spirits on Korriban, went to previously undiscovered Sith worlds, took a a helluva lot of info from the ancient empire AND the Jedi ancients, we know he got info from the Prophets of the Dark Side...and notice the Sith empire fell so it don't mean a damn to later Sith Orders. Proof of this peak in reference to things OTHER than Ragnos's empire

Kun would win end of story.

given that badass sig avatar, I'm almost inclined to agree

May've forgot this one:

And so there they were, Palpatine the Undying and Luke Skywalker, the twin and opposing demigods. The swirl of their light and darkness was terrifying, a river of power that threatened to sweep away all around it. Luke's vast courage could never hope to overcome the Emperor's vast power; yet the Emperor's egotistical self-love could never hope to match Luke's altruistic self-sacrifice. They battled with more than just their lightsabers; they battled with their whole selves, mind, body, and soul. It was a battle between the Sith Lord who ruled and the Jedi Knight who served; the narcissist who exploited and abused and the philanthropist who defended and comforted; the darkness that chilled and the light that warmed; the abyss that consumed and the love that begot. It was a battle between the darkest evil and the purest good.

Ah, yes it is a Sith Wyrm, my error: According to the DS sourcebook, it's an altered space slug

1. Umm...the Hand of Thrawn Duology and I, Jedi were written AFTER the JA Trilogy. And as a spirit, he was stronger than he was in life, he was NOT a normal force ghost. And ok, he didn't posses Kyp, he tricked him and TOGETHER and together alone, they bested Luke when they had the beennfit of him holding back and being surpised. Kunw as trapped before Vodo and Luke got involved. Just look at the scene where Mara confronts him

I, Jedi dealt more with Kyp than anything else, and it never definitively knocks Kun down as many pegs as you claim. Especially since spirit Kun never duplicated a few regular feats that the flesh and blood Kun did. So unless it states that "the spirit Kun was >>>> living Kun" and "living Kun never WTFpwned jedi masters like they were nothing," the point is moot.

2. So DE came before TOTJ, So what? Is TOTJ invalid because of KOTOR? After all, there are quite a few inconsistencies!

DE's sourcebook came before TOTJ with the premise of having a shorter history of Sith than it did. Therefore it has to be adjusted when TOTJ comes up and supplants it with newer data. So any statement that Sidious was "the most powerful Sith of all time!" needs to be re-evaluated. Granted that I don't seem to recall where the wording led to that effect to begin with.

Should all DE's expressions on Palp's power-and a lot of it is recent, including what I've posted- and stored in the Chronology and Dark Side sourcebook....two recent items. DE has not been retconned. TOTJ elements have. And Qui-Gon is never referenced in OT either, point?

DE and TOTJ have both had newer data come out for it, therefore both of them had been retconned to adjust the data given. You just can't allow bias to lock you into how you fit the data. If the OT sourcebook says that "Obi-Wan created the ability to become a force ghost," then yes, the PT retconned it. Just like the sourcebook claimed the Sith Empire was shorter than it was.

3. you mean the same Sidious who chilled with the spirits on Korriban, went to previously undiscovered Sith worlds

How the hell can it be previously undiscovered and Sith at the same time? These worlds were part of the Sith Empire. It never claimed that the Sith only had 3 planets in their Empire.

took a a helluva lot of info from the ancient empire AND the Jedi ancients, we know he got info from the Prophets of the Dark Side...and notice the Sith empire fell so it don't mean a damn to later Sith Orders.

Yes, the Sith Empire fell, that would only make it more likely that Sith knowledge was lost. If you know anything about paleontology or even basic criminology, you'd realize that as time passes, details get lost so quickly it's hard to believe. The fact that he finds them from the "ancients" doesn't help his cause. And it never mentions that he gained more proficiency in the Sith abilities than the ancients. Kun looted Sadow and Nadd's knowledge and stockpiled more than he could ever use, but it does not mean he suddenly had more capability of using them.

Proof of this peak in reference to things OTHER than Ragnos's empire

It was the Golden Age of the Sith, not of a five year period. In fact, when Kun was crowned, he was supposed to create another "golden age." Obviously he failed, but it shows that the Golden Age is more timeless than just a few centuries, it spans a few millenia.

1. He never MET any Jedi masters....and unlike Vodo and ODan, Luke was tested and Exar had to double team him. I, Jedi still had a large section on Kun. Just look at how Mara badmouths Kun and his lack of response. We know Sidious took what Kun had on Yavin, as well...

2. There was never a history of the Sith GIVEN nor did it claim to. The Dark Side sourcebook is VERY recent and supports PAlpatine's power as well.

3. But the OT sorucebook did nothing of the sort and the Dark Side sourcebook and Chronology have retconned TOTJ while the rest stands strong.

4. I meant undiscovered by others after the empire's fall, not undiscovered by Sith

5. It would make sense, but Palpatine still gained them and got what he did. Palpatine took what Kun got, he recovered items thought lost, he 'unlocked the secrets of the Force' from holocrons and absorbed their power...

6. I'd call the Golden Age 100 years of Marka Rule....and it applies to 'Of the SITH EMPIRE'...nothing beyond that....Wouldn't a thousand years of Sith dominion be a Golden Age as well?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. He never MET any Jedi masters....and unlike Vodo and ODan, Luke was tested and Exar had to double team him. I, Jedi still had a large section on Kun. Just look at how Mara badmouths Kun and his lack of response. We know Sidious took what Kun had on Yavin, as well...

Wait a minute... are you saying Kun never MET any jedi masters? I really don't see how you got this response from Illustrious' statement.

2. There was never a history of the Sith GIVEN nor did it claim to. The Dark Side sourcebook is VERY recent and supports PAlpatine's power as well.

Very recent? Wait a minute... are you talking about the Dark Side Sourcebook or the Dark Empire sourcebook? Five minutes ago you were using the latter...

Author(s) Michael Allen Horne
Editor(s)
Illustrator(s) Cam Kennedy
Publisher West End Games
Publish Date June 1993
Type Hardcover
ISBN 0874311942

I would call that pretty damn old actually. And TOTJ starts in the latter half of 1993, with The Sith Wars coming out in 1995 and Golden Age of the Sith Empire coming out in 1996. Therefore, TOTJ is neweer than the DE Sourcebook... For the obsolete roleplaying game.

3. But the OT sorucebook did nothing of the sort and the Dark Side sourcebook and Chronology have retconned TOTJ while the rest stands strong.

No, this is bullshit. Now you're arguing the Dark Side Sourcebook, which is a handbook for the WotC RPG, saying random statements in it overide TOTJ? Are you nuts? RPG canon is NOT canon at all!
Let's go over this AGAIN:

The Holocron's database field is divided into four levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon. G, C and S together form an overall continuity. Each ascending level overrides the lower ones. e.g. Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Attack of the Clones, forcing retconning of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).

When the matter of changes between movie versions is brought up, the remastered editions are deemed superior to the theatrical ones, since they correct mistakes and improve consistency between the two trilogies. They also express Lucas' original intention and also final word.
C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label), some game stats, fanon, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.

Let me point out the definition for C-canon: Games are a special case in which things like states and gameplay may not be canon but stories are. Since roleplaying games and their sourcebooks are staging grounds for fictional, out of continuity individual roleplaying sessions for the amusement of private parties, they should not be considered canon AT ALL. In fact, I would argue that sourcebooks for roleplaying games (obsolete or not) fall under S-canon, and while they may not contradict the EU licensed universe, they do not reflect it either.

5. It would make sense, but Palpatine still gained them and got what he did. Palpatine took what Kun got, he recovered items thought lost, he 'unlocked the secrets of the Force' from holocrons and absorbed their power...

Proof that Palpatine has what Kun had? All of it after thousands of years? Proof that he used any of it? Mastered it? ANY PROOF AT ALL? Didn't think so. QED.

6. I'd call the Golden Age 100 years of Marka Rule....and it applies to 'Of the SITH EMPIRE'...nothing beyond that....Wouldn't a thousand years of Sith dominion be a Golden Age as well?

Golden Age isn't subject to Lightsnake's opinion, but the storytellers and Ragnos in-universe. Therefore, your observations are moot.

Oh, and QED.

Originally posted by Illustrious
It makes it seem far more likely. If I shoot a basketball 1000 times from 50 feet away, my chances are far better of making a basket than if I shoot just 5.

I didn't deny that, I'm just saying it wouldn't be unprecedented. My great grandfather lived into his ninties, which is considerably older than me - but he never saw the Star Wars prequels, because they weren't around when he was alive.

Similarly, Vodo never came across the likes of Revan, Bane, Anakin and Luke (well, until later) because he'd died before their coming. Am I saying Revan and Bane are necessarly better than Kun? No, just that Vodo could not have them to compare Kun to.

Maybe Kun was superior to them, maybe he wasn't. We don't know. Probability however, would suggest he was, yes.

The argument posed that Revan may have been superior is moot, as it's just so purely speculation it's pointless.

Well, yeah, so's arguing about which fictional character is better than the other - and i'm not bashing it (I'm on this forum aren't I?) but none of this has a point. And I wasn't really *arguing* for it, just saying, "Hey, we don't really know" and leaving it at that.

We can assume Kun was superior however.

Meanwhile Vodo's quote is absolute, Kun was the most formidable student Vodo ever taught.

I don't know when I argued against that.

Why are the two being described differently? They are both referring to the same individual. The same guy that demonstrated such immense dark side powers as to make the earth tremble, or to instakill a millenia old Jedi, or to fling other Jedi around like ragdolls beneath his notice.

1. Never saw any "earth shaking where Kun walked" in the comics, though that may have just been to do with static panels.
2. KotOR describes (through Jolee) how Kun converted hundreds of Jedi to his cause
3. The Republic are said to have arrived at Yavin IV and bombed the place into submission

It's not so much *Kun* that's described differently, as the Great Sith War, but that leads to one thinking that since the Sith War was bigger and better, so was Kun himself. Originally, (in the backstory KJA wrote for JA) or so I've heard, there was supposed to be a far greater timespan between Exar and Ulic joining forces, and then their attacking the galaxy... everything got pretty condensed in the Sith War comics.

- One thing. Why is Kreia's statement about the ancient Dark Lords held as gospel, whereas her statement about Revan is not? Or, for that matter, what she later says about the Exile? (Which suggests tah Revan is not the be-all-and-end-all)

It's fair enough if people want to dismiss Kreia as a looney old bat but, I dunno, just seems a little odd to be bringing her in as support for the "Ancient Sith Lords pwned" argument, when everything else she says is written off as being Revan's/the Exile's ultimate fangirl.

It's likely SHE had also come across Exar Kun, given her age... so she could have compared both Revan and Kun. Maybe he looked like "even more power" to her, I've not got the foggiest. (Note: this isn't an 'argument' for anything, I freely admit that it is pure speculation, it does not need to be broken apart and analysed - look, see, I've already dismissed it)

Tis interesting regardless.

Anyway, this entire thread has both satisfied my curiousity and entertained me, so thanks for peoples contributions. I apologise if the 'speculative' nature of my posts has irritated people but hey, I'm not going to stop throwing questions out there just because "we can't know" - if that's the attitude humanity had taken, we'd never had advanced as a species.

Ok, well, I think I might lurk for a bit now - cya around and may you crush your enemies arguments, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their points. 🙂

So long as we're going to argue ridiculous sourcebooks, I'll point out that the Jedi Academy sourcebook calls Exar Kun the single most powerful force user of the time.

Since those idiots at Bioware put KOTOR only 40 years past the Sith War, that's very strong evidence that he's above Revan.