Originally posted by IKC
So long as we're going to argue ridiculous sourcebooks, I'll point out that the Jedi Academy sourcebook calls Exar Kun the single most powerful force user of the time.Since those idiots at Bioware put KOTOR only 40 years past the Sith War, that's very strong evidence that he's above Revan.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I should go look through my collection of sourcebooks for more hyperbolic statements.
There's nothing in either game giving Revan's power a definitive comparison to anyone else's.
It's more-so obsolete, considering it was written when both characters were considered to be the pinnacle of light and dark power. It was written before any mention of Sith that were more than 2000 years old, before any mention of ancient Jedi that could block someone from the force or make simple objects more powerful than a lightsaber, etc.
Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Wait a minute... are you saying Kun never MET any jedi masters? I really don't see how you got this response from Illustrious' statement.Very recent? Wait a minute... are you talking about the Dark Side Sourcebook or the Dark Empire sourcebook? Five minutes ago you were using the latter...
[b]Author(s) Michael Allen Horne
Editor(s)
Illustrator(s) Cam Kennedy
Publisher West End Games
Publish Date June 1993
Type Hardcover
ISBN 0874311942I would call that pretty damn old actually. And TOTJ starts in the latter half of 1993, with The Sith Wars coming out in 1995 and Golden Age of the Sith Empire coming out in 1996. Therefore, TOTJ is neweer than the DE Sourcebook... For the obsolete roleplaying game.
3. But the OT sorucebook did nothing of the sort and the Dark Side sourcebook and Chronology have retconned TOTJ while the rest stands strong.No, this is bullshit. Now you're arguing the Dark Side Sourcebook, which is a handbook for the WotC RPG, saying random statements in it overide TOTJ? Are you nuts? RPG canon is NOT canon at all!
Let's go over this AGAIN:The Holocron's database field is divided into four levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon. G, C and S together form an overall continuity. Each ascending level overrides the lower ones. e.g. Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Attack of the Clones, forcing retconning of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story.
G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).
When the matter of changes between movie versions is brought up, the remastered editions are deemed superior to the theatrical ones, since they correct mistakes and improve consistency between the two trilogies. They also express Lucas' original intention and also final word.
C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.
N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label), some game stats, fanon, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.
Let me point out the definition for C-canon: Games are a special case in which things like states and gameplay may not be canon but stories are. Since roleplaying games and their sourcebooks are staging grounds for fictional, out of continuity individual roleplaying sessions for the amusement of private parties, they should not be considered canon AT ALL. In fact, I would argue that sourcebooks for roleplaying games (obsolete or not) fall under S-canon, and while they may not contradict the EU licensed universe, they do not reflect it either.
Proof that Palpatine has what Kun had? All of it after thousands of years? Proof that he used any of it? Mastered it? ANY PROOF AT ALL? Didn't think so. QED.
Golden Age isn't subject to Lightsnake's opinion, but the storytellers and Ragnos in-universe. Therefore, your observations are moot.
Oh, and QED. [/B]
1. He needed to double team one Jedi master when he was a ghost...considering he didn't meet any that he 'pwned'...
2. And the Dark Side sourcebook is newer than both, along with Complete Locations...unlike the DS sourcebook, TOTJ sourcebook contradicts standing information. And the New Essential Chronology threw a lot of stuff out the window and supported DE.
3. Except it si and there've been character profiles, power acknowledgments and solidified canon in the Chronolog. Prove the RPG sorucebook STORY MATERIAL-said to be EU canon- isn't valid. NOW. Because a lot of it from TOTJ was used as well in the continuity. Which way does it go? The Story info oft he sourcebooks is still QUITE VALID and ahs always been treated as such. This doesn't change ebcause Jnaus wants it to. Check out TFN, talk to Leland Chee. He even answers questions by citing answers to the sorucebooks! Point out evidence of loyalty in the Sith Empire? Garu and Tritos Nal in TOTJ Companion. Prophets of the dark Side surviving? DS Sourcebook. Grand Admirals? Sourcebooks. Numerous other things? Sourcebooks
4. Proof Kun took what Kun had? Complete locations: He went to Yavin and gathered up what Kun had left there before mastering the information provided. Kun hid it in Yavin and that's not a massive trove gthroughout the galaxy, that's in the bowels of an easily accesible temple. Numerous other sources state he mastered information from other places, from Ziost, to Dathomir, to Honoghr, to the Tetan worlds. Are you ever going to read the essay I posted?
Originally posted by IKC
There's nothing in either game giving Revan's power a definitive comparison to anyone else's.It's more-so obsolete, considering it was written when both characters were considered to be the pinnacle of light and dark power. It was written before any mention of Sith that were more than 2000 years old, before any mention of ancient Jedi that could block someone from the force or make simple objects more powerful than a lightsaber, etc.
1. I'm pretty sure someone made that statement.
2.It's not obsolete? You know why? Because that ibnformation was supported in numerous areas: The recent Chronology, the recent guides and that passage I post was written VERY recently...in 2005. That's about...ten years after TOTJ was written.
Glad we agree on sometihng though, IKC....KOTOR's time frame was screwed up...it makes all the sacrifices just look...worthless. Where're Vima, Thon and Tott? Sylvar, Oss Willum and the like? It makes the massive crushing of the Mandalorians over Onderon worthless as well....all it took to stop Exar was for nothing
1) So not only do you call Vodo and Odan-Urr, not to mention Arca and Ood, worthless nothings, but now they don't qualify as Jedi Masters? Nevermind that Kun slapped around the two he killed like they were nothing.
2) Oh? Doesn't contradict anything? Is that why it only puts Sith history back 2000 years even though Kun existed 4000 years previously and the Golden Age was 5000 years ago? Right.
3) "Prove the RPG sorucebook STORY MATERIAL-said to be EU canon- isn't valid." Quit asking people to prove a negative. Said to be canon by whom?
4) Except that Palpatine... never uses what you claimed he stole. Nor is there any account given for the fact that Kun would defend his things from a two-bit Sith like Sidious.
Oh, I love how we conveniently forget that Palpatine, in his fear, isolated Dathomir from the rest of the galaxy. What a force god, afraid of a bunch of primitive force witches.
1. I was referring to when he was a spirit.
2. It doesn't! For the alst time, DE doesn't even mention the Ancient Emprie! Until the New Chronology, it was 25,000 years old, that was only JUST retconned.
3. Leland Chee?
4. No, but he masters the knowledge. It's stated he never got to use all he knew. Did Exar?
5. He feared them as an ARMY, not individuals...that was a precaution
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. I was referring to when he was a spirit.
Can you please stop using double standarts. When it comes to fighting Sidious, Luke as he appears in DE is "an avatar of the lightside", has "the power of legions of Jedi" is a "lightsaber god" and so on. Yet...when Kun is fighting a more expirienced and more powerful Luke he's just "double teaming a Jedi Master".
It's also nice how you use the source that makes people look worse when something is contradicting. You keep on throwing "I, Jedi" at us to make Kun look weak. Now use your own standart work on Kun and it says that Kun controlled Kyp during the attack on Luke meaning that Kun just used Kyp's body doing all the work on his own. And even if he "double teamed" Luke as you like to put it - this was Kun without his amulets and his "partner" was a Padawan who had only some months of force training and even less training when it comes to using the Dark Side. So put it as you like but Kun either did seperate Luke from his body alone (according to I, Jedi) or he did the greatest part of the job (according to the JA trilogy) and there is nothing to argue about. Period.
2. It doesn't! For the alst time, DE doesn't even mention the Ancient Emprie! Until the New Chronology, it was 25,000 years old, that was only JUST retconned.
I wonder how a "chronology" can retcon the actual sources since it deals with material coming from the sources and nothing else. Now let's have a look at the sources. Here is a picture of the Valley of the Dark Lords:
As you can see you have 13 tombs displayed on that picture which doesn't contain the entire valley. Now inside one of the smaller tombs you can see you have more than one Sith Lord burried as you can see here:
The same thing can be observed when Nadd and Kun visit Korriban later. And...talking about Kun visiting the Valley of the Dark Lords:
Different place and again you can see graves on both side of that relative small valley which is not the same place we've seen in the first picture. So the direct evidence from the sources indicates that virtually hundrets of Sith Lords are burried on Korriban. And now I leave the choice to you: Either the Sith were a martial culture and martial enough to kill their recent Dark Lord so fast that none of them had reigned for more than 20 years which makes them quite powerful and makes Ragnos himself pretty uber as he ruled for more than a century - or you accept that the Ancient Sith Empire was around for more than 2,000 years, nearly 20,000 which would make Ragnos the most powerful person in nearly 1000 generations of force user and his direct followers - from which Kun learned (Sadow) - still quite powerful.
3. Leland Chee?
As you failed to provide some source for that statement over and over again it seems to be nonexistant. So unless you come up with some direct link or something else to prove it, you can throw it in again and again and nobody will believe you.
4. No, but he masters the knowledge. It's stated he never got to use all he knew. Did Exar?
It stated about Exar that he archieved so much knowledge that he won't be able to use it all. But he - in contrary to Sidious - was able to kill force users and toss them arround like ragdolls and even as a 400 year old an half-mad spirit was a threat for Luke who - at this time - had already defeated DE Sidious.
5. He feared them as an ARMY, not individuals...that was a precaution
And somehow Yoda when the Chu'unthor crashed on Dathomir was able to convinced the witches to let the Jedi leave the planet and watch over the knowledge stored on the ship. And it's nice how Sidious feared and "army" of force witches when just the "most powerful" of them were able to levitate a lightsaber. Makes your force god look especially great there.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Can you please stop using double standarts. When it comes to fighting Sidious, Luke as he appears in DE is "an avatar of the lightside", has "the power of legions of Jedi" is a "lightsaber god" and so on. Yet...when Kun is fighting a [b]more expirienced and more powerful Luke he's just "double teaming a Jedi Master".
It's also nice how you use the source that makes people look worse when something is contradicting. You keep on throwing "I, Jedi" at us to make Kun look weak. Now use your own standart work on Kun and it says that Kun controlled Kyp during the attack on Luke meaning that Kun just used Kyp's body doing all the work on his own. And even if he "double teamed" Luke as you like to put it - this was Kun without his amulets and his "partner" was a Padawan who had only some months of force training and even less training when it comes to using the Dark Side. So put it as you like but Kun either did seperate Luke from his body alone (according to I, Jedi) or he did the greatest part of the job (according to the JA trilogy) and there is nothing to argue about. Period.I wonder how a "chronology" can retcon the actual sources since it deals with material coming from the sources and nothing else. Now let's have a look at the sources. Here is a picture of the Valley of the Dark Lords:
As you can see you have 13 tombs displayed on that picture which doesn't contain the entire valley. Now inside one of the smaller tombs you can see you have more than one Sith Lord burried as you can see here:
The same thing can be observed when Nadd and Kun visit Korriban later. And...talking about Kun visiting the Valley of the Dark Lords:
Different place and again you can see graves on both side of that relative small valley which is not the same place we've seen in the first picture. So the direct evidence from the sources indicates that virtually hundrets of Sith Lords are burried on Korriban. And now I leave the choice to you: Either the Sith were a martial culture and martial enough to kill their recent Dark Lord so fast that none of them had reigned for more than 20 years which makes them quite powerful and makes Ragnos himself pretty uber as he ruled for more than a century - or you accept that the Ancient Sith Empire was around for more than 2,000 years, nearly 20,000 which would make Ragnos the most powerful person in nearly 1000 generations of force user and his direct followers - from which Kun learned (Sadow) - still quite powerful.
It stated about Exar that he archieved so much knowledge that he won't be able to use it all. But he - in contrary to Sidious - was able to kill force users and toss them arround like ragdolls and even as a 400 year old an half-mad spirit was a threat for Luke who - at this time - had already defeated DE Sidious.
And somehow Yoda when the Chu'unthor crashed on Dathomir was able to convinced the witches to let the Jedi leave the planet and watch over the knowledge stored on the ship. And it's nice how Sidious feared and "army" of force witches when just the "most powerful" of them were able to levitate a lightsaber. Makes your force god look especially great there. [/B]
1. No, I will not, because the text says that EXACTLY. It was also Kun surprising Luke, double teaming him and calling upon all the energy he had just gained. Kun'd been driven back by Luke before. Was Kyp not described as the strongest student? How is Kun more powerful or experienced? When he created storms and is even reerenced to as godlike...
2. We see Korriban again in the Republic comics, as well....are we shown the full view of the Valley there? What of KOTOR's valley of the Dark Lords? The Sith were wiped out almost instantly following TSW, when would they have time to build hundreds of tombs? And Ragnos lasting a hundred years was in all probability the longest ever. And the chronology retconned KOTOR's timeframe, that's undebateable. I have to accept nothing because no matter what logic is used, no matter what is argued, those dates will be 7,000 BBY to 5,000 BBY and are written down.
3. He asked where it was said, I gave it. Visit Leland's Blog or AKS HIM yourself on the QaA page I've supplied numerous times.
4. Notice Sidious never double teamed Luke or caught him off guard? And we've seen Palpatine throw powerful force users around like it was nothing. Hell, he blasts Brand away before instakilling Rayf-blows a hole through him- after besting Leia, compared to Nomi and Vima Sunrider earlier, and this in an inferior, dying clone. And let's not forget: Kun NEVER used that info considering he had his out of body experience....hours later at most? We know, according to complete locations, Palpatine claimed what Kun'd hidden in those temples and mastered them. It was directly stated Sidious mastered the force in all its forms.
5. We saw Gethzerion SLAUGHTER a legion of storm troopers with a rake of her finger. Moreover, according to Zsinj's bio, he was stationed over Dathomir and when the Nightsisters-who didn't exist by Yoda's time, only the witches did...Gethzerion created the Nightsisters- began to get edgy, he stranded them there and was lauded by Palpatine for quick thinking. It wasn't something Palpatine ordered since I doubt he knew what they were attempting. If he figured them any sort of threat-and this is, what, maybe a year or two after ROTS? He'd have had Dathomir bombed to slag.
1. No, I will not, because the text says that EXACTLY. It was also Kun surprising Luke, double teaming him and calling upon all the energy he had just gained. Kun'd been driven back by Luke before. Was Kyp not described as the strongest student? How is Kun more powerful or experienced? When he created storms and is even reerenced to as godlike...
The fact of the matter is that a mad, 4000 year old Kun who could barely talk any more and had no more corporeal form nearly separated Luke from his body. A Luke several years more experienced than his defeat of Sidious. That is an undeniable fact, it's on-panel (or on-page) evidence.
So because he didn't create storms or wasn't referenced as godlike (verbatim), he isn't powerful? Sidious didn't have his spirit come back and wreck havok in the academy. He never walked into a room of thousands of beings and freezed them all while he gave a nice little lecture. He never instakilled a thousand year old Jedi with a wave of his hand. Does that make him weaker?
According to you, it doesn't. So let go on the "he didn't produce a force storm" double-standard.
2. We see Korriban again in the Republic comics, as well....are we shown the full view of the Valley there? What of KOTOR's valley of the Dark Lords? The Sith were wiped out almost instantly following TSW, when would they have time to build hundreds of tombs? And Ragnos lasting a hundred years was in all probability the longest ever. And the chronology retconned KOTOR's timeframe, that's undebateable. I have to accept nothing because no matter what logic is used, no matter what is argued, those dates will be 7,000 BBY to 5,000 BBY and are written down.
But the chronology still does not change the depicted images in TOTJ, it did not rule them invalid. Therefore all of those tombs clearly existed, which makes the number of Sith Lords rather vast.
4. Notice Sidious never double teamed Luke or caught him off guard? And we've seen Palpatine throw powerful force users around like it was nothing. Hell, he blasts Brand away before instakilling Rayf-blows a hole through him- after besting Leia, compared to Nomi and Vima Sunrider earlier, and this in an inferior, dying clone. And let's not forget: Kun NEVER used that info considering he had his out of body experience....hours later at most? We know, according to complete locations, Palpatine claimed what Kun'd hidden in those temples and mastered them. It was directly stated Sidious mastered the force in all its forms.
You fail to give Kun credit for controlling Kyp, whom Luke says himself in I, Jedi that he did or choking the padawans. And notice how Nomi Sunrider and 7 other Jedi go and confront Ulic, not Exar in his life. Exar is also shown to blast holes through individuals that he never did in life. There's still no proof that Exar was in any way stronger than in life, he was a half-mad spirit that could barely talk.
And "the dark side," "sith alchemy," and "sith magic" are all stated as different terminologies. Notice how only one of them fall into the category that Sidious "masters." The fact of the matter is that the term is very vague and Sidious has not demonstrated many force powers that would have been extremely useful and fall under those categories.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. No, I will not, because the text says that EXACTLY. It was also Kun surprising Luke, double teaming him and calling upon all the energy he had just gained. Kun'd been driven back by Luke before. Was Kyp not described as the strongest student? How is Kun more powerful or experienced? When he created storms and is even reerenced to as godlike...
Oh. Kun has been driven back by Luke before ? Where exactly ? Luke has only seen Kun in his dreams before the little "indicent". Kun manipulated Kyp right under Luke's nose, knocked of Dorskk 81 when he was together with Kyp and Kun wanted to talk to Kyp alone. Gantoris ended as an Jedi equivalent of toast when trying to confront Kun and then Kun seperated Luke spirit from Luke's body (either by controlling Kyp or by a little help of Kyp).
When have we seen Sidious blasting holes into massive walls and monsters created with Sith alchemy, kill force spirits, freeze the entire Senate, kill Jedi masters with a hand movement, toss Jedi arround like ragdolls, seperate Luke's spirit from his body, force choke 10 people at once, controlling other force users and so on ? We didn't ? So how is Sidious more powerful than Kun ? Because of a single ability (force storm) or because of the fact that we never saw him taking on a force user sucessfully using nothing but the force prior to DE ?
2. We see Korriban again in the Republic comics, as well....are we shown the full view of the Valley there? What of KOTOR's valley of the Dark Lords? The Sith were wiped out almost instantly following TSW, when would they have time to build hundreds of tombs? And Ragnos lasting a hundred years was in all probability the longest ever. And the chronology retconned KOTOR's timeframe, that's undebateable. I have to accept nothing because no matter what logic is used, no matter what is argued, those dates will be 7,000 BBY to 5,000 BBY and are written down.
Did you just want to argue for me ? Yeah...the Sith had no time to built that tombs after the Great Hyperspace War. That's why they built all of them before the Great Hyperspace War. Ups. And where did the NEC get the info from ? There is no source stating that the Ancient Sith Empire only existed for 2000 years - their are other sources stating it had existed for almost 20000 years and this is supported by the stuff we have seen in any source so far that deals with Korriban. And since the valley seems to be quite huge we might actually have never seen more than a small part of it. Again...you are just arguing for me.
3. He asked where it was said, I gave it. Visit Leland's Blog or AKS HIM yourself on the QaA page I've supplied numerous times.
No. You just gave a link to a more than 90 page long thread and failed to provide a direct link. And I don't have to do anything since you want to prove something and not me and I have the complete evidence from the actual sources bolstering my suggestions when you only have a Chronology and a statement that you seem to have just make up.
4. Notice Sidious never double teamed Luke or caught him off guard?
Notice how Kun didn't do that either. Luke had his lightsaber in hand and was prepared for an attack. Surprise ? And Kun either controlled Kyp or he was doing the greater part of the job suggesting that Kyp was just trained for months (in the force) and weaks (in the Dark Side) and so he was clearly not able to do anything dangerous to Luke.
And we've seen Palpatine throw powerful force users around like it was nothing. Hell, he blasts Brand away before instakilling Rayf-blows a hole through him- after besting Leia, compared to Nomi and Vima Sunrider earlier, and this in an inferior, dying clone.
Inferior dying clone > 4000 year old half-mad spirit who is only a shade of his former self.
And let's not forget: Kun NEVER used that info considering he had his out of body experience....hours later at most? We know, according to complete locations, Palpatine claimed what Kun'd hidden in those temples and mastered them. It was directly stated Sidious mastered the force in all its forms.
Blah, blah and blah again. Kun states that the present of strong force users was waking him. So Sidious was a nobody in terms of force powers ? And he would have allowed Tarkin to blow Yavin 4 up if he did know that there was massive Sith knowledge stored ? And of course he did know about the place because the Jedi never mentioned it, it was outside of Republic space. And it's nice how he should have plundered all Kun had stored there but failed to use anything of it when needed.
5. We saw Gethzerion SLAUGHTER a legion of storm troopers with a rake of her finger. Moreover, according to Zsinj's bio, he was stationed over Dathomir and when the Nightsisters-who didn't exist by Yoda's time, only the witches did...Gethzerion created the Nightsisters- began to get edgy, he stranded them there and was lauded by Palpatine for quick thinking. It wasn't something Palpatine ordered since I doubt he knew what they were attempting. If he figured them any sort of threat-and this is, what, maybe a year or two after ROTS? He'd have had Dathomir bombed to slag.
"Oh. I consider an army of people a thread when only the most powerful of them are able to levitate a lightsaber. And because I'm the avatar of the Dark Side and have an entire fleet of ships able to destroy the entire life on a planet not to mention a vast amount of superweapons I have to seperate them from the Republic instead of destroying them or make them servants." 🙄
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Minor point here:According to your Chronology, Lightsnake, Darth Bane used a Force storm on Ruusan. There goes the feat that puts Sidious head and shoulders above everyone else.
A chronology does not create canon. It can not override the established canon in various C-level sources. If a newer comic states the Sith Empire existed for only 2000 years, then yes, it has been retconned.
Originally posted by IKC
Since those idiots at Bioware put KOTOR only 40 years past the Sith War, that's very strong evidence that he's above Revan.
I'm a bit loathe to call Bioware idiots when they're responsible for the greatest Star Wars game ever... but yeah, I didn't like the placement on the timeline.
I DID like the modernisation of the technology (the civilisation is 20,000 years old - why would everything look so ridiculously archiac?) and I loved the *feel*, since it took the best aspects of the prequels and the rest was like OT Star Wars...
I think we can agree that Revan is the strongest of his generation - and during his adventures, he's the strongest *living* Force user around.
I don't think that there is *conclusive* evidence that points to Exar Kun being greater than him (just as there isn't any conclusive evidence that suggests Revan is greater than Kun) but I'm aware that I'm in the minority.
Come to think of it - since the Ancient Sith Empire has actually *survived* - does this mean that Kun was actually being used as a pawn by said Empire? I'm not casting doubt on his levels of power, but it makes you think.
I'm a bit loathe to call Bioware idiots when they're responsible for the greatest Star Wars game ever... but yeah, I didn't like the placement on the timeline.
In your opinion. I liked the original Jedi Knight.
I DID like the modernisation of the technology (the civilisation is 20,000 years old - why would everything look so ridiculously archiac?)
I didn't. The "feel" of TOTJ was much better than the ridiculously shiny KOTOR. I don't like it when almost everything looks like the PT.
I think we can agree that Revan is the strongest of his generation - and during his adventures, he's the strongest *living* Force user around.
According to Kreia anyway, and he was maybe the strongest out of a crippled order that had lost at least twenty or more ancient Jedi Masters along with Ossus all at once 40 years earlier.
I don't think that there is *conclusive* evidence that points to Exar Kun being greater than him (just as there isn't any conclusive evidence that suggests Revan is greater than Kun) but I'm aware that I'm in the minority.
Yes there is. Revan's the best out of a crippled order with a smaller knowledge base and younger, perhaps less powerful masters. Exar Kun toyed with and beat the hell out of the truly ancient masters of his time. Arguably, Exar gathered more Force knowledge, including Sith Magic, than Revan.
Come to think of it - since the Ancient Sith Empire has actually *survived* - does this mean that Kun was actually being used as a pawn by said Empire? I'm not casting doubt on his levels of power, but it makes you think.
According to Kreia. I have my doubts. And how is it you think the Dark Lord of the Sith can be used as a pawn by the Sith when he was crowned by Ragnos himself? This is idle speculation. I could more easily assert that pre-KOTOR Revan was turned to the Dark Side and made a pawn.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh. Kun has been driven back by Luke before ? Where exactly ? Luke has only seen Kun in his dreams before the little "indicent". Kun manipulated Kyp right under Luke's nose, knocked of Dorskk 81 when he was together with Kyp and Kun wanted to talk to Kyp alone. Gantoris ended as an Jedi equivalent of toast when trying to confront Kun and then Kun seperated Luke spirit from Luke's body (either by controlling Kyp or by a little help of Kyp).When have we seen Sidious blasting holes into massive walls and monsters created with Sith alchemy, kill force spirits, freeze the entire Senate, kill Jedi masters with a hand movement, toss Jedi arround like ragdolls, seperate Luke's spirit from his body, force choke 10 people at once, controlling other force users and so on ? We didn't ? So how is Sidious more powerful than Kun ? Because of a single ability (force storm) or because of the fact that we [b]never saw him taking on a force user sucessfully using nothing but the force
prior to DE ?Did you just want to argue for me ? Yeah...the Sith had no time to built that tombs after the Great Hyperspace War. That's why they built all of them before the Great Hyperspace War. Ups. And where did the NEC get the info from ? There is no source stating that the Ancient Sith Empire only existed for 2000 years - their are other sources stating it had existed for almost 20000 years and this is supported by the stuff we have seen in any source so far that deals with Korriban. And since the valley seems to be quite huge we might actually have never seen more than a small part of it. Again...you are just arguing for me.
No. You just gave a link to a more than 90 page long thread and failed to provide a direct link. And I don't have to do anything since you want to prove something and not me and I have the complete evidence from the actual sources bolstering my suggestions when you only have a Chronology and a statement that you seem to have just make up.
Notice how Kun didn't do that either. Luke had his lightsaber in hand and was prepared for an attack. Surprise ? And Kun either controlled Kyp or he was doing the greater part of the job suggesting that Kyp was just trained for months (in the force) and weaks (in the Dark Side) and so he was clearly not able to do anything dangerous to Luke.
Inferior dying clone > 4000 year old half-mad spirit who is only a shade of his former self.
Blah, blah and blah again. Kun states that the present of strong force users was waking him. So Sidious was a nobody in terms of force powers ? And he would have allowed Tarkin to blow Yavin 4 up if he did know that there was massive Sith knowledge stored ? And of course he did know about the place because the Jedi never mentioned it, it was outside of Republic space. And it's nice how he should have plundered all Kun had stored there but failed to use anything of it when needed.
"Oh. I consider an army of people a thread when only the most powerful of them are able to levitate a lightsaber. And because I'm the avatar of the Dark Side and have an entire fleet of ships able to destroy the entire life on a planet not to mention a vast amount of superweapons I have to seperate them from the Republic instead of destroying them or make them servants." 🙄 [/B]
1. When Luke drove him off in dreams? KEep in mind I'm operating from word of mouth here, but I believe Luke drove off Exar in his dreams.
2. He's.....created monsters with Sith alchemy, paralyzed numerous citizens on Korriban-nearly everyone in the imperial center, torn down temples-and ships, killed powerful Jedi without the slightest exertion-he's a master of Morichiro, after all, control force users....you're focusing on Force Storm and ignoring his other credentials...even so, Force Storm ALONE should be enough as its described as the mightiest weapon of the Sith and he destroyed a fleet with it...
3. So ASK HIM....type in a post and ask if sourcebook info can be valid, because info from them has been used before...hell, TOTJ companion was the only thing that gave rise to this 25,000 years stuff. And wait, can't stuff be retconned? Doesn't the newer stuff come first?
4. When you have Kun as your teacher and combining his power with yours when the guy you're facing has just seen a thought dead dark lord appear when he has no idea how to face force ghosts....and you've yet to provide any proof of how Kun's spirit was weaker after I, Jedi supports the diea he had far more power to focus on...and he could affect the physical world, he's the only force ghost on record to do that, minus Sidious and Ragnos. and notice Sidious was ONE force user and a Sith at that....if anything, he'd just laugh at Kun and leave. And when did he fail to sue anything? He already mastered all of the knowledge it gave him. What is ambiguous of 'mastered the force in all its forms?'
5. Oh, yes, make them servants when their entire culture revolves around male enslavement...and considering they can kill massive squadrons of soldiers without exertion...And Palpatine's a sadistic bastard. He liked the idea of gethzerion stranded much more than her dead...he just sent a message telling Zsinj to 'deal with the situation' and liked the outcome.
OH, and on Bane's force storm: That was the combined power of Bane along with Kaan, Kopecz, Githany and the other....ten or so dark lords combining
If this is after the Star Forge and when Revan leaves for the uncharted regions of space, then I would have to pick Revan.
He defeated Malk who was being amplified by the power of many other Jedi, combined with the power of the Star Forge which amplified his already significant force ability.
After leaving for the unkown regions of space, Revan recovered his memory of the time he was the Dark lord.
I would place my bets on Revan, but it would be a narrow victory, and Revan would shortly die after the injuries sustained in the fight.
That's a joke. You think Revan, a force user who came from a crippled Jedi Order that had lost many ancient masters and the entire knowledge base of Ossus just fourty years earlier, can beat Exar Kun, described as the "most formidable student" of 600-year-old Vodo-Siosk Baas and the most powerful force user of the time by the (Yes, sourcebooks are questionable but this is confirmed with on-panel evidence) TOTJ Sourcebook.
This is not to mention that your basis for saying this is that he defeated... Malak. A "Sith" who could make his lightsaber big, nevermind that Kun invented the ability (he teaches it to Gantoris as a mad, 4000 year old spirit).
Revan comes from a greatly-reduced knowledge base and there's no evidence that he learned a fraction of the Dark Side techniques that Kun knew. Even without amulets Kun, the real Dark Lord of the Sith, will take this.