dooku and maul vs sidious

Actually I remember talking about this with some people and while this is unconfirmed I will still through it out there. I think that Sidious used Juyo. Why?

Well in the RotS Video game each character, and by extension style, has a specific way to hold their lightsaber in defensive mode, Obi-Wan (form III) is right in front of him, exactly like it is in AotC when he faces Dooku. Dooku (form II) is out to the side (hard to explain), but again, exactly how it is in AotC when he does his formal salute to Yoda. Anakin (form V) has his blade hanging over his shoulder, exactly like it is in RotS when he kills the seperatist leaders. Mace (form VII) has his by his right shoulder, pointing forward, but slightly down. Exactly the same as it is in RotS when he faces Sidious. Why is this important? Well Sidious also puts his lightsaber in exactly the same way when he faces both Mace and Yoda.

This can also provide another reason as to why Mace beat Sidious, Mace used the complete form while Sidious was only using an imcomplete form which Mace had mastered to the highest degree.

Also, this was the form that Maul used, since he would have been taught by Sidious, this makes it likely that Sidious also knew Maul. Also, since it takes years to master one form (I remember hearing somewhere that it took 50 years for Dooku to master form II), it is unlikely that Sidious could have mastered two forms, so he probably taught his style to Maul.

And this would not be a bad form for the sith, it is good against both blasters and lightsabers. Plus it does/can draw upon the darkside, making it good for the sith.

Also, Juyo does use jumping movements, combined with strong blows, really exactly how we see Sidious fight in RotS.

So while I have no actual proof, these things lead up to me thinking that Sidious uses Juyo

Except Dooku was Palpatine's master, Sorgo and stated by Nick Gillard to be a master of all forms/weapons/styles

Yes, cuz NG is the highest level of canon.

When it comes to fights and styles-which HE creates- he's certainly a heavy authority. And Maul reflects upon Sidious's skill in Shadow Hunter

Author Dr. David West Reynolds and fencer Jack "Stelen" Bobo derived the "in universe" principles of lightsaber combat based on the action that appears in all five Star Wars films to date. An importance notice to the reader: these Jedi histories are not stunt choreographies nor intructions from Episodes I and II Stunt Coordinator Nick Gillard, who developed the exciting sequences we see on screen. Do not attempt fencing without proper safety precautions and training.

See this article and other exciting information in Issue 62 of Star Wars Insider.

http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php

NG did NOT create the EU forms of combat as we know them; he is a stunt/fight coordinator. He is not the creator of the forms and indeed, he didn't even know what Vaapad was in an interview awhile back. The idea that NG has the right to say "cideus noes all teh furms!!!11" is ridiculous thinking. He doesn't. And he's contradicted by his own lack of knowledge about the material and his place in the creation of the series. Period.

So? He's still a source on the issue. And even without him, we have Shadow Hunter for proof.

...

He's a source concerning how fights take place IN THE MOVIES. He is not the know-all, see-all of SW fighting. The guy didn't create the forms that are part of the EU continuity and he didn't even know what the hell Vaapad was (He even went so far as to argue that Mace didn't use Vaapad, because he didn't base the on-screen fighting style on it at all). And what, pray tell, is in Shadow Hunter? I have the book on a shelf around here somewhere. Let's here some specific page numbers.

Sidious does NOT know all and having mastered all forms, period. If he had, he must be the most idiotic Sith Lord in existance, since he was beaten by Mace, beaten by Yoda, and beaten by barely trained Luke in lightsaber combat. That's pretty pathetic.

In Shadow Hunter, we hear tell of Sidious's saber skills. I'll try to find where it was. And for Nick, he said Sidious was a master of all forms and styles, why should that only apply to the movies? Who taught Maul that Juyo? Should Lucas's comments only apply to the movies?

As for Yoda and Mace: Both of them were of the strongest Jedi the Order'd ever known and among the best duelists. There's still the Mace fight controversy and Yoda didn't beat him, the fight was inconclusive. Oh, and mastery of so and so doesn't mean you'll beat another guy who's a master of so and so. And don't get me started on Luke, the fact that Luke was fighting with nearly the entire backing of the force...

In Shadow Hunter, we hear tell of Sidious's saber skills. I'll try to find where it was.

Okay. Lemme know when you get it via PM or something.

And for Nick, he said Sidious was a master of all forms and styles, why should that only apply to the movies?

Really, it should be written off as unproven hyperbole. But if you want to treat it as fact, it must have grounding in the movies for it to count as movie canon. And it doesn't. There is no clear indication of him being a amster of all forms and styles. Indeed, he didn't even prove to be ambidextrous as NG predicted. NG is just a Sidious fanboy and full of shit.

Who taught Maul that Juyo?

Sidious. I think Sidious used Juyo. Doubt he mastered it, since it's an incomplete form, but still... I've said Sidious used Juyo for months now.

Should Lucas's comments only apply to the movies?

If you're taking a statement that is oriented towards the movies (Which GL's statements always are) and you suddenly apply it to the EU continuity as a whole you are basically saying GL is the "God" of that realm too, despite the fact that he doesn't know shit about it. Really, it doesn't make any sense.

As for Yoda and Mace: Both of them were of the strongest Jedi the Order'd ever known and among the best duelists.

This is extremely subjective and up for debate. Don't proclaim it as fact.

There's still the Mace fight controversy and Yoda didn't beat him, the fight was inconclusive.

Mace beat Sidious using his saber alone. Yoda disarmed Sidious in saber combat. Therefore, unless they are incredibly uber saber gods (Which they aren't) Sidious isn't a lightsaber master, period. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Oh, and mastery of so and so doesn't mean you'll beat another guy who's a master of so and so.

More often than not, yes, it does. If I have a knight of over twenty eyars experience versus a peon and both just have swords, that peon is gonna die. Period.

And don't get me started on Luke, the fact that Luke was fighting with nearly the entire backing of the force...

lol

The Entire backing of the Force? Wow. That's just a hilarious concept. Impossible, too.

That's completely unfair. Nick is the man who designs the styles. Is he a Dooku fanboy too? And Sidious would be able to teach Maul the mastered Juyo without mastering it? We know he mastered a helluva lot else, Tera Kasi included. And it's not subjective at all that Mace and Yoda was both amazing fighters and Jedi.

And Mace and Yoda are 'uber saber gods'. Mace: Described as one of the greatest duelists the Order'd ever produced. Yoda was described as up there as well and he's better than Mace. There's NOTHING supporting their inferiority.

Oh, Mace was a peon now? He was just ten years younger than Sidious and a master of Vaapad, meaning he'd have to have mastered a style're two himself. A master of numerous forms could meet the ultiamte master of one form and it'd be inconclusive

No, backing of the Force is NOT impossible and don't give me hyperbole. It happened in Star by Star, it happened in The Unifying Force, it happened in Dark Empire. Hell, it even said: "never before in history and never again would there be a battle such as this." The echoes of the struggle were felt across the universe

And ah, in the Insider thing I use, it's said 'He had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber.'

Albeit that doesn't say he'd mastered all of them, but it's something

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's completely unfair. Nick is the man who designs the styles.

Can't you read ? Nick Gillard is not the one who designed the styles he just orchestred the battles in the movies and it even goes so far that he told us that "no specifical styles exists for the characters" he just designs movements but not the styles.

And Sidious would be able to teach Maul the mastered Juyo without mastering it? We know he mastered a helluva lot else, Tera Kasi included. And it's not subjective at all that Mace and Yoda was both amazing fighters and Jedi.

Juyo is descriped as an unfinished art and if something is unfinished it can logically not be mastered. Mace Windu completed Juyo with his Vaapad. So unless you want to tell us that Sidious knew Vaapad and mastered it he can't have mastered Juyo. Period.

And Mace and Yoda are 'uber saber gods'. Mace: Described as one of the greatest duelists the Order'd ever produced. Yoda was described as up there as well and he's better than Mace. There's NOTHING supporting their inferiority.

Dooku: Descriped as being on par with both Mace and Yoda. Now...go and use some logic. Yoda beats Sidious, Mace beats Sidious - Dooku who mastered the "refinement of lightsaber vs lightsaber combat" and used it for 50 years can't ?

Oh, Mace was a peon now? He was just ten years younger than Sidious and a master of Vaapad, meaning he'd have to have mastered a style're two himself. A master of numerous forms could meet the ultiamte master of one form and it'd be inconclusive

There is pretty much nothing that indicates that Sidious did anything else but use Juyo to a certain extend which isn't on Mace Windu's level and then taught that style to Maul.

No, backing of the Force is NOT impossible and don't give me hyperbole. It happened in Star by Star, it happened in The Unifying Force, it happened in Dark Empire. Hell, it even said: "never before in history and never again would there be a battle such as this." The echoes of the struggle were felt across the universe

Do we again have to argue that point ? If somebody is backed up by the entirety of the force that means he is backed up by the lifeforce of every single living being in the entire Galaxy and - while facing an opponent who is another force user - it would mean that one would even use the opponents own power against him. And that's impossible.

And for Nick, he said Sidious was a master of all forms and styles

Sorgo, I never said Yoda didn't use it. Simply asked where the proof was.

So Sidious flipped twice, huh? Well, if I remember correctly, Qui-Gon used Ataru and he never flipped. Where did you get the idea that filpping = Ataru?

Form IV is the most acrobatic form ever developed. In this form the Jedi uses the Force to go beyond what is physically possible. Jumps, spins and runs.
The form is filled with elaborate moves in which the Jedi stands as the center of the blur formed by his lightsaber.

I've looked this up on about 50 pages and this is wat i have compiled(not canon, but accepted on every site i went to).

and qui-gon did his share of flipping in the jedi-apprentice series.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Can't you read ? Nick Gillard is [b]not the one who designed the styles he just orchestred the battles in the movies and it even goes so far that he told us that "no specifical styles exists for the characters" he just designs movements but not the styles.

Juyo is descriped as an unfinished art and if something is unfinished it can logically not be mastered. Mace Windu completed Juyo with his Vaapad. So unless you want to tell us that Sidious knew Vaapad and mastered it he can't have mastered Juyo. Period.

Dooku: Descriped as being on par with both Mace and Yoda. Now...go and use some logic. Yoda beats Sidious, Mace beats Sidious - Dooku who mastered the "refinement of lightsaber vs lightsaber combat" and used it for 50 years can't ?

There is pretty much nothing that indicates that Sidious did anything else but use Juyo to a certain extend which isn't on Mace Windu's level and then taught that style to Maul.

Do we again have to argue that point ? If somebody is backed up by the entirety of the force that means he is backed up by the lifeforce of every single living being in the entire Galaxy and - while facing an opponent who is another force user - it would mean that one would even use the opponents own power against him. And that's impossible. [/B]

1. He designed them for the movies, that's what matters and is first and foremost. Period.

2. 'Mastered the styles and forms of the lightsaber'....and Sidious had access to a master Vaapad user during the Clone Wars, too.

3. Dooku feared Sidious. Just because A>B doesn't mean A>C in dueling...otherwise can Obi-wan beat Dooku?

4. The force backed them, end of story. Bad Phrasing? Possibly. However, Luke, Ganner, Anakin and JAcen have all become pure and complete conduits to the power of the Force itself. Just because you can't make sense of it does not mean it's impossible

1. He designed them for the movies, that's what matters and is first and foremost. Period..

Yo'ure missing the point. The movies are G-canon. Nick Gillard's word is not. He is not George Lucas. He has said stuff that contradicts C-canon several times and that makes it suspect.

So is Lucas' personal assistant the star wars king now too? Amazing what you'd twist so it works for you.

2. 'Mastered the styles and forms of the lightsaber'....and Sidious had access to a master Vaapad user during the Clone Wars, too.

Is that why Mace is described as the "only one" to master Vaapad? Please.

3. Dooku feared Sidious. Just because A>B doesn't mean A>C in dueling...otherwise can Obi-wan beat Dooku?

That's only because there's it's own controversy in the Dooku Anakin duel, especially since Dooku dispatched both of them rather easily.

And besides, you're missing the point: You said:

As for Yoda and Mace: Both of them were of the strongest Jedi the Order'd ever known and among the best duelists.

No proof. Where is it stated they are THE STRONGEST THE ORDER'D EVER KNOWN? You use subjective BS, you'll get it stuffed in your face in an OBJECTIVE debate. Prove this statement, concede this argument, or don't bother.

4. The force backed them, end of story. Bad Phrasing? Possibly. However, Luke, Ganner, Anakin and JAcen have all become pure and complete conduits to the power of the Force itself. Just because you can't make sense of it does not mean it's impossible

The statement falls victim to hyperbole because it is logically impossible.

If a comic says Batman can jump over buildings, I can chalk that up to hyperbole because Batman is a normal human, and that's impossible. You won't see him jumping over any Sears Towers any tme soon. You have yet to establish it as anything but hyperbole. In fact, there are numerous instances where the ancient sith said the "dark side" flew through him, does that mean they are a conduit too? No evidence.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. He designed them for the movies, that's what matters and is first and foremost. Period.

Again: He did design the fights but he has absolutely nothing to do with the lightsaber styles as they appear in the EU. Period.

2. 'Mastered the styles and forms of the lightsaber'....and Sidious had access to a master Vaapad user during the Clone Wars, too.

Read Shatterpoint. Sidious didn't even know something about Vaapad and this is after Sora Bulq went dark. Mace in the book even states that Sora never mastered the style. So unless Mace Windu personally taught Vaapad to Sidious there is no way for Sidious to know that style. Period.

3. Dooku feared Sidious. Just because A>B doesn't mean A>C in dueling...otherwise can Obi-wan beat Dooku?

This is just comparing their strength leaving out personal relationship of the characters otherwise you could just say that both Maul and Dooku wouldn't try to fight Sidious. So cut that out.
And as it seems you're talking about Anakin vs Dooku - Dooku was sent there to throw the fight (read the novel) and Anakin surprised him. Does that mean Anakin > Dooku in terms of duelling. No.

4. The force backed them, end of story. Bad Phrasing? Possibly. However, Luke, Ganner, Anakin and JAcen have all become pure and complete conduits to the power of the Force itself. Just because you can't make sense of it does not mean it's impossible

It is impossible since "becoming a conduit of the force" would mean that you yourself become the force - the entirety energy stored in all life forms throughout the entire Galaxy. It's simply impossible as it is. They might have become very close to the force (in terms of attunement to it) but sure as hell no "pure conduit", "avatar" or similar things "of the force".

Originally posted by Jawa Lord
For Christs sake! It's Ataru!

Then why does the ROTS novel spell it with an "O"?