Spectre vs. Phoenix Force and Goblin Force

Originally posted by Juntai
Spectre volume 4 issue 4, Hal sees past the Wrath and finds The Logoz. The Wrath is just how the Universe has percieved The Logoz. And Hal's pure force of will is apperently great enough to hold these perceptions at bay. Through a lot of the rest of the series Hal says stuff like "with the power of the logoz I'll. . " bla bla, you get the idea. He spends an entire arc of the series going from place to place ascending from the sky in holy light and leading souls "home". The Spectre-force IS the Logoz however. The Spectre though, is a soul bonded to The Logoz, and I doubt anyone after Hal will have the will to get past the will of The Wrath[as this perception is so powerful it's nearly an entity onto itself.].

Yeah i was just reading the issue. To be fair it can still be interpreted as Spectre being a representation of the Logos, just like the Word( as shown in Swamp Thing v3) is stated to be and he is referred to in the series as Spectres older brother.

Its so ambiguous, i dont know what to believe. Hmmm.

Originally posted by golem370
Thats BS

Why? Because you say so? Mere opinion. Back it up otherwise its useless here.

Originally posted by golem370
As long as he remains the Judge of the Muti Verse then there is no way of telling who's more powerful. All the abstract beings of the Marvel Comics came to LT during the Infinity Gauntlet no one else. When Adam Warlock tryed to do something against LT it didn't work granted he did have that power trusted to him but he had the power none the less. Until Phoenix or the inifinites or the TOAA toss him off that throne he is the law in Marvel Comics....

And yet thats still his ROLE. Role doesnt come hand in hand with power as we've seen by LTs various low showings whilst having a lack of high showings.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yeah i was just reading the issue. To be fair it can still be interpreted as Spectre being a representation of the Logos, just like the Word( as shown in Swamp Thing v3) is stated to be and he is referred to in the series as Spectres older brother.

Originally posted by Juntai
I suppose, but it did clearly fully identify itself as The Logoz, on panel. It doesn't say "representation of". That would just be speculation.

Yeah but the Wrath was referred to as the veil suggesting that Spectre is a representation of the Logos. The face of the Logos we see on the physical plane. Thats actually stated more or less in that same scene i believe. That doesnt necessarily mean the Spectre is the sum total of the Logos as opposed to just an aspect of it, just like the Word is and it describes the Spectre as a brother. The scene could have just been revealing the nature of the Spectres power as opposed to retconning the previous idea. According to his bio the Voice/Logos did transform Aztar into an embodiment of Heavens might so all in all it can still be interpreted that way. But either way it doesnt really change that much whatever interpretation you choose.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yeah but the Wrath was referred to as the veil suggesting that Spectre is a representation of the Logos. The face of the Logos we see on the physical plane. Thats actually stated more or less in that same scene i believe. That doesnt necessarily mean the Spectre is the sum total of the Logos as opposed to just an aspect of it, just like the Word is and it describes the Spectre as a brother. The scene could have just been revealing the nature of the Spectres power as opposed to retconning the previous idea. According to his bio the Voice/Logos did transform Aztar into an embodiment of Heavens might so all in all it can still be interpreted that way. But either way it doesnt really change that much whatever interpretation you choose.

That aside, as shown, The Logoz itself told Hal The Spectre is indeed The Logoz, and the Wrath is merely how people percieve it. There's really not much arguing it. Like I said, it's all speculation to assume otherwise.

And in that old Spectre issue, Issue 60 of the Ostrander Mandrake era. . .so there's no more misunderstanding of Spectre's creation.
__________________________________________
Micheal: "So Aztar-- you repent your rebellion against The Word?"

Aztar: With all my being. I acknowledge my wrong. I accept my responsibility. I am ready to accept whatever punishiment the Lord Of Hosts deems fit."

Micheal: Thou hear the Judgement of God. You will become a vessel for an aspect of God -- God's wrath. All awareness of yourself, of any existance before this shall be burned out of you. Nothing of Aztar, not one jot off memory or awareness shall remain. Do you accept this punishment?"

Aztar: "Nothing will remain of me? To exist and never know that I existed? This is the price My Lord demands? What can I do but accept and hope that in mercy, some iota will be allowed to remain."

Micheal: "No mercy. Only justice."

_____________________________________________
There you have it, no angel, only God, and it still fits with in with current continuity.
So there it is..
Spectre = Wrath = Logoz, in the twisted form of an angel to give it a physical presence. [Though not an angel itself at all as his entire being was erased.]

Spectre has a role in DC Universe so does Michael & Lucifer. If it wasn't for the DC Supreme Being where would they be?

Originally posted by Juntai
The Word and The Logoz are both aspects of The Presence. In fact, Micheal often refers to God as "The Word".[Which I'll get to in a minute.].

That aside, as shown, The Logoz itself told Hal The Spectre is indeed The Logoz, and the Wrath is merely how people percieve it. There's really not much arguing it. Like I said, it's all speculation to assume otherwise.

And in that old Spectre issue, Issue 60 of the Ostrander Mandrake era. . .so there's no more misunderstanding of Spectre's creation.
__________________________________________
Micheal: "So Aztar-- you repent your rebellion against The Word?"

Aztar: With all my being. I acknowledge my wrong. I accept my responsibility. I am ready to accept whatever punishiment the Lord Of Hosts deems fit."

Micheal: Thou hear the Judgement of God. You will become a vessel for an aspect of God -- God's wrath. All awareness of yourself, of any existance before this shall be burned out of you. Nothing of Aztar, not one jot off memory or awareness shall remain. Do you accept this punishment?"

Aztar: "Nothing will remain of me? To exist and never know that I existed? This is the price My Lord demands? What can I do but accept and hope that in mercy, some iota will be allowed to remain."

Micheal: "No mercy. Only justice."

_____________________________________________
There you have it, no angel, only God, and it still fits with in with current continuity.
So there it is..
Spectre = Wrath = Logoz, in the twisted form of an angel to give it a physical presence. [Though not an angel itself at all as his entire being was erased.]

None of that states or suggests that the Wrath is the sum total of the Logos as opposed to just a representation of it. All that says is that as we all know Aztar was transformed into the embodiment of gods wrath. Saying Spectre is a representation of the Logos isnt speculation anymore than you saying he is the sum total of Logoz. Its just two different interpretations of a single ambiguous source.

Spectre v4 says the Wrath is the veil and beneath it lies the Logos. That doesnt necessarily say that Spectre is the sum total of the Logos as opposed to a representation of the Logoz. In the same way Eternity is a representation of the 616 universe without actually being the sum total of the universe itself. The totality of the universe is beyond the representation we are allowed to perceive on the physical plane. Im not saying Spectre and the Logos arent one but im just saying that it states that Spectre is perception of the Logos not that Spectre IS the Logos. Theres a difference.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
None of that states or suggests that the Wrath is the sum total of the Logos as opposed to just a representation of it. All that says is that as we all know Aztar was transformed into the embodiment of gods wrath. Saying Spectre is a representation of the Logos isnt speculation anymore than you saying he is the sum total of Logoz. Its just two different interpretations of a single ambiguous source.

Spectre v4 says the Wrath is the veil and beneath it lies the Logos. That doesnt necessarily say that Spectre is the sum total of the Logos as opposed to a representation of the Logoz. In the same way Eternity is a representation of the 616 universe without actually being the sum total of the universe itself. The totality of the universe is beyond the representation we are allowed to perceive on the physical plane. Im not saying Spectre and the Logos arent one but im just saying that it states that Spectre is perception of the Logos not that Spectre IS the Logos. Theres a difference.

Doesn't The Presence powers Spectre up. The Presence is the supreme, so if he would give enough power, Spectre would take PF down, if not, than PF would take Spectre down. So it really depends. Both can win, but it could be also one sided if The Presence would chose to give too much power to Spectre, something that even PF wouldn't be able to handle and we know The Presence could do that.

Need more proof?
Brb.

Originally posted by Juntai
No, it states the WRATH is a perception. Nothing more. The issue 4 clearly has it indentifying itself as The Logoz. And while YOU believe it's "inconclusive" it IS completely inarguably that is indeed what the comic shows Spectre to be. Until disproven or even retconed later on down the road, The Spectreforce IS the Logoz.

Nowhere does it state that the Spectre IS the Logos. It says that Hal has pierced the veil of the Wrath and beneath it lies the Logos. That is open to interpretation it is not a conclusive closed statement. Spectre is the wrath embodied so from that line you interpret that Spectre represents the Logos, that through the Spectre the will of the Logos is carried out on the physical plane. With that in mind it isnt inarguable, a retcon isnt required on panel as you are not backed up by a conclusive statement. Only your interpretation of a scene which is far from conclusive.

Spectre volume 4 issue 10.
This is when Hal finally just began to fully understand the level he was on..

Spectre/Hal battling Spectre/Paralax.
"I really have to thank you Parallax, for sending me into the void, To a place that exists beyond the threshhold of our conscious limitations. Because by becoming one with the void. I was able to at least begin to do what my friend Abin Sur suggested: Transcend my limited view of myself. Break the constraits of individual identity. I've been so many different beings down through history[Hal, not Wrath, as the series dealt with souls being reincarnated.] Lived so many millions of lifetimes. With so many more yet to come. But beyond all of that... I'm a spirit. And then beyond that.....I'm connected to The Logoz that God merged with me. To the Oversoul Itself. To The divine Presence that contains and surpasses everything in creation. Viewed from that perspective... You're just one small aspect of one small incarnation.. Just a minor drifting thought in the sea of eternity.

That's twice now Spectre is indentified as The Logoz and bonded with Hal on panel.

Do I really need to get out another issue?

Originally posted by Xplosive
Doesn't The Presence powers Spectre up. The Presence is the supreme, so if he would give enough power, Spectre would take PF down, if not, than PF would take Spectre down. So it really depends. Both can win, but it could be also one sided if The Presence would chose to give too much power to Spectre, something that even PF wouldn't be able to handle and we know The Presence could do that.

Thats an interesting point XP. Thats what im trying to establish here it would be good to find out once and for all. Does Spectre get powered up to fight beings or is he just of a set power level given to him by the Presence, only being able to act on matters within his jurisdiction as laid out by the Presence. 😕

Originally posted by Juntai
Spectre volume 4 issue 10.
This is when Hal finally just began to fully understand the level he was on..

Spectre/Hal battling Spectre/Paralax.
"I really have to thank you Parallax, for sending me into the void, To a place that exists beyond the threshhold of our conscious limitations. Because by becoming with the void. I was able to at least begin to do what my friend Abin Sur suggested: Transcend my limited view of myself. Break the constraits of individual identity. I've been so many different beings down through history[Hal, not Wrath, as the series dealt with souls being reincarnated.] Lived so many millions of lifetimes. With so many more yet to come. But beyond all of that... I'm a spirit. And then beyond that.....I'm connected to The Logoz that God merged with me. To the Oversoul Itself. To The divine Presence that contains and surpasses everything in creation. Viewed from that perspective... You're just one small aspect of one small incarnation.. Just a minor drifting thought in the sea of eternity.

That's twice now Spectre is indentified as The Logoz and bonded with Hal.

Do I really need to get out another issue?

No but if the Spectre stems from the Logos then of course a host of the Spectre is going to be connected to it as well. You arent backed up any conclusive statements. Therefore its still just your interpretation versus mine.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No but if the Spectre stems from the Logos then of course a host of the Spectre is going to be connected to it as well. You arent backed up any conclusive statements. Therefore its still just your interpretation versus mine.

The Spectre is The Spectreforce MERGED with a human soul.

You're obviously lacking comprehension skills today bro.

4 entries found for Merged.
merge ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mûrj)
v. merged, merg·ing, merg·es
v. tr.
To cause to be absorbed, especially in gradual stages.
To combine or unite: merging two sets of data.

v. intr.
To blend together, especially in gradual stages.
To become combined or united. See Synonyms at mix

So we have Spectre itself identifying ITSELF as The Logoz.
And Spectre/Hal later on identifying himself as merged with The Logoz.

Both on panel.

NOT Spectre identifying itself as a "PIECE" of the Logoz
and not Hal "Drawing power from"

This is not really up to interpretation.

Originally posted by Juntai
THE LOGOZ THAT GOD BONDED WITH ME

The Spectre is The Spectreforce BONDED with a human soul.

You're obviously lacking comprehension skills today bro.

At the same time the Logos transformed Aztar into a vessel for gods might. He became the SpectreForce.

Spectre V4 says the Wrath which he became is a veil and that beneath it lies the Logos.

The Logos has manifested as the Word which itself isnt the sum total of the Logos but an aspect of it. One of its faces.

Spectre is part of the Logos it represents a part of it however i didnt interpret it as being the sum of the Logos. Prove me wrong.

Juntai this is a comic debate im merely disagreeing with you, youre taking it too personally. Please extend the same courtesy i currently am to you. Chill. 😎