Spectre vs. Phoenix Force and Goblin Force

Originally posted by Juntai
So we have Spectre itself identifying ITSELF as The Logoz.
And Spectre/Hal later on identifying himself as merged with The Logoz.

Both on panel.

NOT Spectre identifying itself as a "PIECE" of the Logoz
and not Hal "Drawing power from"

This is not really up to interpretation.

Nope. Spectre identified itself as a part of the Logos one of its faces which Hal saw through to see the true nature of the Spectre. Hence the line "your belief has pierced the veil to reveal the Logos beneath". My interpretation is that Spectre is just the wrath aspect of the Logos which has also manifested as the Word who funnily enough looks like Spectre in red.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Spectre identified itself as a part of the Logos one of its faces which Hal saw through to see the true nature of the Spectre. Hence the line "your belief has pierced the veil to reveal the Logos beneath". My interpretation is that Spectre is just the wrath aspect of the Logos which has also manifested as the Word who funnily enough looks like Spectre in red.

On the very last page;

Phantom Stranger Narrating of Hal's actions while Hal tries to figure out what happened to his sanctuary where he could watch over the planes of reality and beyond:

He accesses the Logoz: The conscious spark of God that joined him to manifest The Spectre.

Do I need a 4th on panel mention of it?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Spectre identified itself as a part of the Logos one of its faces which Hal saw through to see the true nature of the Spectre. Hence the line "your belief has pierced the veil to reveal the Logos beneath". My interpretation is that Spectre is just the wrath aspect of the Logos which has also manifested as the Word who funnily enough looks like Spectre in red.

Your intepretation is being disproved by the comics themselves over and over again.
By The Logoz itself.
By Hal himself as being merged with the Logoz.
And by Phantom Stranger who holds a very close bond to Spectre, as he's been a part of every incarnation of Spectre. And is often found at his side.

Originally posted by Juntai
Again in Spectre issue 11,

On the very last page;

Phantom Stranger Narrating of Hal's actions while Hal tries to figure out what happened to his sanctuary where he could watch over the planes of reality and beyond:

He accesses the Logoz: The conscious spark of God that joined him to manifest The Spectre.

Do I need a 4th on panel mention of it?

That doesnt discredit my interpretation especially when ive referred to Spectre as being a face of the Logos an aspect of it. Hes just not the sum total of it imo. In your opinion he is. Without conclusive statements its still very much open to debate.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That doesnt discredit my interpretation especially when ive referred to Spectre as being a face of the Logos an aspect of it. Hes just not the sum total of it imo. In your opinion he is. Without conclusive statements its still very much open to debate.

Hal again in issue 4
"Within the Logoz I'm merged with, is the record of all of history from the dawn of creation to this very moment. And he wants you. WE want you. To see the truth you've been blind to."

Issue 13
"A man who died and been reborn, fused with a Divine Thought [As The Word and The Logoz are both Gods thoughts.] in the mind of God. Through that union was born humanity's hope: The Spirit of Redemption.

One with the Creator and yet unbearably alone, neither dead nor living, ghost nor man, he stop atop that tower feeling and unknown grief. Listening to the haunting melody of an unknown song.

So yet another few times we have him as being ONE or MERGED with THE LOGOZ, and not an "aspect of", the only "aspect of" being mentioned, is that The Logoz is an Aspect of God.

Originally posted by Juntai
Until you can prove otherwise, it is the logoz, as identified.

Hal again in issue 4
"Within the Logoz I'm merged with, is the record of all of history from the dawn of creation to this very moment. And he wants you. WE want you. To see the truth you've been blind to."

Issue 13
"A man who died and been reborn, fused with a Divine Thought [As The Word and The Logoz are both Gods thoughts.] in the mind of God. Through that unon was born humanity's hope: The Spirit of Redemption.

One with the Creator and yet unbearably alone, neither dead nor living, ghost nor man, he stop atop that toiwer feeling and unknown grief. Listening to the haunting melody of an unknown song.

So yet another few times we have him as being ONE or MERGED with THE LOGOZ, and not an "aspect of", the only "aspect of" being mentioned, is that The Logoz is an Aspect of God.

By your interpretation. Youre in no position to be claiming the situation non debatable when you have no conclusive statements backing you up.

As it stands all of these quotes come from the same run and if im not mistaken the same writer. In this run the writer by my interpretation has identified that Spectre is the face of the Logos on the physical plane. Saying that Hal is bonded to the Logos doesnt dismiss my interpretation as he is. The Spectre Force represents the Logos its its face of Vengeance, just not its sum total imo. Theres no conclusive statements to prove either of us wrong so we might just have to agree to disagree.

SpectreForce/Aztar was bonded with the Logos. Aztar was transformed into an embodiment of Gods might. Explain to me how Spectre is the sum total of the Logos predated Spectre? Spectres one with it a part of it. Hosts are therefore connected to the Logos.

The fact that the Logos has other aspects such as the Word who have different roles from Spectre says it all really. How can Spectre be all there is to the Logos the sum total of it with that in mind? Imo Spectre is a side of the Logos. The Logos obviously predated Aztar and it was by Gods decree ( so the Logos) that Aztar got transformed into an embodiment of Gods might. He became the SpectreForce the Face of Vengeance on the physical plane, a representation of the Logos. Not its sum total.

Gotta go. We'll continue this 2morrow. Jun dont take it so personal its just comics lol.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By your interpretation. Youre in no position to be claiming the situation non debatable when you have no conclusive statements backing you up.

As it stands all of these quotes come from the same run and if im not mistaken the same writer. In this run the writer by my interpretation has identified that Spectre is the face of the Logos on the physical plane. Saying that Hal is bonded to the Logos doesnt dismiss my interpretation as he is. The Spectre Force represents the Logos its its face of Vengeance, just not its sum total imo. Theres no conclusive statements to prove either of us wrong so we might just have to agree to disagree.

SpectreForce/Aztar was bonded with the Logos. Aztar was transformed into an embodiment of Gods might. Explain to me how Spectre is the sum total of the Logos predated Spectre? Spectres one with it a part of it. Hosts are therefore connected to the Logos.

However, I've proved over and over again that Spectre IS one The Logoz. At least you know that to be true,

It's clearly established in issue 4 alone that:
1: The Wrath is just a face, a facade, an illusion, just because that's the way man percieves The Logoz. The Logoz itself told Hal this.

2: Hal is bonded to The Spectre, therefore bonded to The Logoz.

Why would you assume it's only a piece though, especially when it's never even hinted at?
In issue 11, Spectre spread himself across all worlds, times, planes and reality as a whole, and became the embodiment of redemption and the face of God to all of Creation.

In Spectre 17, it identifies the Logoz as Hal's direct connection to The Presence. Once more suggesting The Logoz is an aspect of Presence, not Spectre being an aspect of The Logoz. Then he recreated the universe again, for what, the fifth?, sixth? millionth time?

And once again in the final issue, he reaffirms that he is indeed bonded to the Logoz, and that The Logoz is a piece The Presence.
And once again establishes that Spectre, or The Logoz has various aspects of ITSELF. All stemming from Hal, as he calls himself "Spectre Prime".

"It still astonishes me what I can do. This ability to take aspects of my own consciousness and give them form... And send them off across the universe. How is this possible?

It's not as if I understand the process: I just do it. Urge becomes thought, becomes manifestation. And each one of these reflections... each one of these others, is as much of me as I am.

Yet I remain to connected to them all. The controlling consciousness. Spectre Prime. Yet I don't fell as if I'm really controlling them. It's as if we're part of the cosmic tapestry-- carrying out the will of something -- someone-- far greater than all of us.

There are times I wonder if I'm not just one more reflection of a still-larger mind. That's waiting to call me home, and swollow me up.

Undream me. [Which fits once again into Logoz being a thought in the creators mind.]

And perhaps I am. What can identity mea, after all, when you've left the world of matter of illusory between the spririt and flesh behind?

So I sail off across the Earth day after day, night after night, in more shapes and forms thatn I could ever count. Sail off to do what must be done in order to save the world one soul at a time.

Across the Earth and across the galaxies. For my work isn't limited to one planet, one culture, one small vision of reality. The Hand of The Divine[As Word and Logoz are the two "hands" of the Presence. Once again aluding to him being the entire Logoz] reaches across space and time... across all the limitless planes of existance. And where he points. I follow....

..cajoling and caressing, exhorting and harassing, comforting and terrifying, doing whatever needs to be done... Whatever each individual heart requires.. to awaken the new universe, the new age of jor and miracles, that lies . . fully realized . . . all around us.

Just waiting for us to open our eyes.

And see it."

In this very comic you see Spectre holding all of creation in his hands. And shaping and reshaping it.

Forgive my typos, I was typing while staring at the page.

I wasn't sure about this one but Juntai convinced me. He showed several quotes from the comics that seem to prove his arguements. I don't know as much about the Spectre, Phoenix force, and Goblin force as others so take my opinion for what its worth. But until anyone else can show some actual evidence and not just their theory, I'd say Juntai is right and the Spectre takes this.

Originally posted by TheKahn
I wasn't sure about this one but Juntai convinced me. He showed several quotes from the comics that seem to prove his arguements. I don't know as much about the Spectre, Phoenix force, and Goblin force as others so take my opinion for what its worth. But until anyone else can show some actual evidence and not just their theory, I'd say Juntai is right and the Spectre takes this.

And then of course... Rebirth happened.

blowup

rrright....

...

Well i agree with GS, Spectre (the Wrath) is a piece of the Logos/The Word who is a piece of The Presence himself. everything i've read and have read on these posts still confirm The Spectre to be a aspect of The Word/Logos. the only thing is i see to differ from gs is The Logos(z) and the Word, they are the same being not The Word being a aspect of the Logos....

Originally posted by kevdude
Well i agree with GS, Spectre (the Wrath) is a piece of the Logos/The Word who is a piece of The Presence himself. everything i've read and have read on these posts still confirm The Spectre to be a aspect of The Word/Logos. the only thing is i see to differ from gs is The Logos(z) and the Word, they are the same being not The Word being a aspect of the Logos....

I've pointed out tons of proof in this thread alone.

everything u have said really proves the point that the Spectre(Wrath) is a part of The Logos who is a piece of God(the Presence), not Spectre being a piece of God, when Hal threw off the Spectre(wrath) he found the Logos hiding beneath. when Hal split himself up into into thousands of pieces he was using the Logos power which the Spectre uses but using it for redemption, the Spectre would come around every once and awhile and try to convince Hal to switch to vengeance and on a couple times almost got Hal to change over.

In issue 1 we see Satan/Lucifer talking with Hal about why is Hal so much of a monster if he isn't connected with the Wrath/Spectre anymore??? they both keep talking and Lucifer never tells him its because of the Parallax entity, probably because he didn't care. So ther u go there is a few instances showing the Wrath/Spectre to be a part of the Logos/Word.

Originally posted by kevdude
everything u have said really proves the point that the Spectre(Wrath) is a part of The Logos who is a piece of God(the Presence), not Spectre being a piece of God, when Hal threw off the Spectre(wrath) he found the Logos hiding beneath. when Hal split himself up into into thousands of pieces he was using the Logos power which the Spectre uses but using it for redemption, the Spectre would come around every once and awhile and try to convince Hal to switch to vengeance and on a couple times almost got Hal to change over.

In issue 1 we see Satan/Lucifer talking with Hal about why is Hal so much of a monster if he isn't connected with the Wrath/Spectre anymore??? they both keep talking and Lucifer never tells him its because of the Parallax entity, probably because he didn't care. So ther u go there is a few instances showing the Wrath/Spectre to be a part of the Logos/Word.

You're obviously all confused.

The Wrath is NOT The Spectre. The Wrath is just a perception as pointed out by the Logoz itself. The Logoz is. It told Hal that itself. And Hal was bonded to The Logoz as I pointed out several times. The Specteforce is The Logoz, once again pointed out several times.... the comics made this very clear.

You made absolutely no points, only showed how confused you are on the topic.