Originally posted by Grimm22
Um, Actually Srank is anything but a fanboy 😐Just because he is defending Logan dosen't mean he is Wolvertooth for pete's sake
Actually he stated Wolverine could beat Guardian and the reason he lost the first time to Guardian as Mac had all the information on him, while Wolverine had nothing on him. 🙄
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Batman beat Hawkman when he had no weapons or wings and was trying to talk Batman out of being mind-controlled from Despero. Actually reading the story goes a long way.
Still batman was at as much as a disadvantage as Hawkman since his mind (batman's greatest weapon) was out of wake because he was mind-controlled. Once again if hawkman had thousands of years of fighting expirence and was a thousand years good. The should have been able to take out a batman who didn't really have access to his vast knowledge of his fighting abilities. Nor did he use any of his weapons. If hawkman is as good a fighter as people are saying then he should have been able to take out batman who was not using any of his "toys" against him. So what is your opinion Mungi about wolverine and hawkman. I at first gave the majority to hawkman and was basically called a fanboy because I didn't say it would be a curb stomp.
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Actually he stated Wolverine could beat Guardian and the reason he lost the first time to Guardian as Mac had all the information on him, while Wolverine had nothing on him. 🙄
No I said Wolverine has beat Mac more the Mac has beat him - or at least finished more fights with the advantage over Hudson - and it's true. I said that in responce to you saying something along the lines of "Guardian has beat Wolverine in every incounter" which isn't even remotely true. I also said that the main reason Mac beat Wolverine so easily in their first fight was that Wolverine had never fought Mac in his Guardian suit while Hudson knew what Wolverine is capable inside and out. Can Wolverine beat Hudson in a fair fight? No. Hudson can fly and has ranged attacks, if he could do nothing else that would be enough.
Originally posted by jasofisc
Still batman was at as much as a disadvantage as Hawkman since his mind (batman's greatest weapon) was out of wake because he was mind-controlled. Once again if hawkman had thousands of years of fighting expirence and was a thousand years good. The should have been able to take out a batman who didn't really have access to his vast knowledge of his fighting abilities. Nor did he use any of his weapons. If hawkman is as good a fighter as people are saying then he should have been able to take out batman who was not using any of his "toys" against him. So what is your opinion Mungi about wolverine and hawkman. I at first gave the majority to hawkman and was basically called a fanboy because I didn't say it would be a curb stomp.
Not really, they were still fighting to the best of their ability as noted Despero just altered what was already inside of each of them. Their distrust for each other as at the time the JLA were falling apart. Yes, he should have taken him out....easily. However, Batman has taken down the likes of Grundy, his jobber aura is impressive. Hawkman has gone from being a cowboy in the old West, to an Egyptian pharoah, etc. With his vast experience not many should challenge him hand to hand combat.
Hawkman would win if he uses all his weapons and abilities
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No I said Wolverine has beat Mac more the Mac has beat him - or at least finished the fight with the advantage over Hudson - and it's true. I said that in responce to you saying something along the lines of "Guardian has beat Wolverine in every incounter" which isn't even remotely true. I also said that the main reason Mac beat Wolverine so easily in their first fight was that Wolverine had never fought Mac in his Guardian suit while Hudson knew what Wolverine is capable inside and out. Can Wolverine beat Hudson in a fair fight? No. Hudson can fly and has ranged attacks, if he could do nothing else that would be enough.
Which isn't true as Wolverine never did beat him or have any kind of advantage as noted his shield blocks Wolverine's claws. Right, prove to me where I said that, because I just read that entire thread again and no where did I state that. Try again. R..i..g..h..t...and yet he was around when he created the Groundhog armor which is basically the less-developed Guardian armor. Mac in the first fight beat him physically, he didn't even use blasts or anything. Heck, Guardian's E-M blasts ahve killed people as durable as Sasquatch with one attack.
Ummm...is that all you think Mac can do? He has complete control over the E-M spectrum, even has punked a weakened Galactus. I assume your not familar with Guardian....at all.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The only time Mac won was when he first donned the Guardian armor and threw down with Logan. Wolverine was at a large disadvantage have no intel on Mac's armor and Mac himself knew everything their to know about Wolverine...
Seriously if you think Wolverine was merely at a disadvantage due to intelligence I suggest you look at what Mac can actually do. As even if he knew what the suit could do...what the hell could Wolveine even do? nothing....at all.
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Which isn't true as Wolverine never did beat him or have any kind of advantage as noted his shield blocks Wolverine's claws. Right, prove to me where I said that, because I just read that entire thread again and no where did I state that. Try again. R..i..g..h..t...and yet he was around when he created the Groundhog armor which is basically the less-developed Guardian armor. Mac in the first fight beat him physically, he didn't even use blasts or anything. Heck, Guardian's E-M blasts ahve killed people as durable as Sasquatch with one attack.Ummm...is that all you think Mac can do? He has complete control over the E-M spectrum, even has punked a weakened Galactus. I assume your not familar with Guardian....at all.
Seriously if you think Wolverine was merely at a disadvantage due to intelligence I suggest you look at what Mac can actually do. As even if he knew what the suit could do...what the hell could Wolveine even do? nothing....at all.
You don't read very well do you? I said Mac can fly and has energy blasts (now this is the important part so try to keep up) if he could do nothing else that would be enough. Shall I explain to you what that means or did you get it the second time around?
The Groundhog armor was a clunky prototype for the Guardian armor, sure Mac's research and work on the Groundhog armor is the foundation for his later work but it is much more primitive. Mac created the Groundhog armor for Am-Can which, if I remember correctly, was a fuel company; the Guardian armor on the other hand was created for the military with military applications.
Uncanny X-Men 121: Mac blasts Wolverine but Wolverine closes the gap and pins Guardian. Wolverine his sitting on top of Guardian read to open up Hudson if necessary when the fight is interrupted by Shaman losing control of the weather. Advantage: Wolverine
Uncanny X-Men 355: Mac trashes Wolverine's bike causing Wolverine and Sauron to crash. Wolverine prison rushes Guardian, clocks him and is then seen fighting the rest of Alpha Flight with Guardian being of little use as Wolverine avoids all his attacks and tussles with the rest of Flight. Advantage: Wolverine.
Alpha Flight v2 1: Think Wolverine is down Mac lets his guard down and gets a chest full of claw. Advantage Wolverine.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You don't read very well do you? I said Mac can fly and has energy blasts (now this is the important part so try to keep up) [b]if he could do nothing else that would be enough. Shall I explain to you what that means or did you get it the second time around?The Groundhog armor was a clunky prototype for the Guardian armor, sure Mac's research and work on the Groundhog armor is the foundation for his later work but it is much more primitive. Mac created the Groundhog armor for Am-Can which, if I remember correctly, was a fuel company; the Guardian armor on the other hand was created for the military with military applications.
Uncanny X-Men 121: Mac blasts Wolverine but Wolverine closes the gap and pins Guardian. Wolverine his sitting on top of Guardian read to open up Hudson if necessary when the fight is interrupted by Shaman losing control of the weather. Advantage: Wolverine
Uncanny X-Men 355: Mac trashes Wolverine's bike causing Wolverine and Sauron to crash. Wolverine prison rushes Guardian, clocks him and is then seen fighting the rest of Alpha Flight with Guardian being of little use as Wolverine avoids all his attacks and tussles with the rest of Flight. Advantage: Wolverine.
Alpha Flight v2 1: Think Wolverine is down Mac lets his guard down and gets a chest full of claw. Advantage Wolverine. [/B]
Right and you said Wolverine was at a disadvantage since he didn't have intel 🙄 oooook...what the hell could Wolverine do with any intel on his suit? Please you act like he could do anything to Wolverine, when yet his shields have blocked Witchfire, Shaman, Human Torch, Windshear, Vindicator II's combined blasts with no ill effects. Yet his claws, which have been shown and stated not to be able to penertrate will somehow work? Please.
Wow, thanks for information I ALREADY KNOW. Didn't I just say it was a less developed suit? and no it wasn't a prototype as Mac wore it as Weapon Alpha w/ Wolverine against Chinnook and the Groundhog armor was used when Wolveine led First Flight.
Haha no. Here lets make it simple for you...what the hell could Wolverine do to him in that position? hmmmm...dick all. So tackling someone who you have no means of actually hurting means advantage? come on now. I thought you said you wern't a fanboy
That wasn't Mac, that was a weaker clone and as stated...brain washed. Even Storm made comment they were fighting like they were brain washed. Hell, Heather as shown and stated didn't even know Wolverine's name was Wolverine thanks to Department H messing with their memories. Nice try
You obviously ignored my post in the other thread now didn't you?
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Ooooh nice try, as stated later in the series that was a memory manipulation from Department H to cover up what they did with the real James (shoot him in space). If you knew continuity when Wolverine was still savage, James was donning the Groundhog armor and even then was long time cured as shown in the Alpha Flight special: First Flight (vol.1) & Alpha Flight: Blast from the Past (Vol.2), which goes against that "flashback". Even that flashback had "James" letting his guard down, he didn't even want to fight him it was a experiment to help treate him. Also Wolverine was in his X-Men attire, another example it was an edited memory [AF #1 (VOL.2)]haha dead to rights? please have you seen what Mac's shields are capable of? block a nuclear explosion and blocked attacks from Shaman, Human Torch, Vindicator, Windshear and Witchfire all at the same time. Dead to rights? please.
No one won, Mac thought Wolverine turned into a murderer and was proven wrong and apologized
His disadvantage was intelligence? please, are you even familar with Guardian's powerset? you know what make a Wolverine vs. Guardian thread and we shall see.
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Here to further back up my point, here's just one scan of many that go against AF #1 Vol.2 Wolverine is no longer savage and Mac is wearing the Groundhog armor. This even came a month before issue #11. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlight-IntheBeginning-1-Flashb.jpg
*correction this wasn't blast from the past, but "Alpha Flight: In the Beggining"*
Example of Department H messing with their minds, showing Heather not even remembering Logan's codename:
1. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlightv208-TheWeaponXFiles-20.jpg
Here Department H made the team believe Shaman created Wolverine:
1. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlightv208-TheWeaponXFiles-16.jpg
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Right and you said Wolverine was at a disadvantage since he didn't have intel 🙄 oooook...what the hell could Wolverine do with any intel on his suit? Please you act like he could do anything to Wolverine, when yet his shields have blocked Witchfire, Shaman, Human Torch, Windshear, Vindicator II's combined blasts with no ill effects. Yet his claws, which have been shown and stated not to be able to penertrate will somehow work? Please.Wow, thanks for information I ALREADY KNOW. Didn't I just say it was a less developed suit? and no it wasn't a prototype as Mac wore it as Weapon Alpha w/ Wolverine against Chinnook and the Groundhog armor was used when Wolveine led First Flight.
Haha no. Here lets make it simple for you...what the hell could Wolverine do to him in that position? hmmmm...dick all. So tackling someone who you have no means of actually hurting means advantage? come on now. I thought you said you wern't a fanboy
That wasn't Mac, that was a weaker clone and as stated...brain washed. Even Storm made comment they were fighting like they were brain washed. Hell, Heather as shown and stated didn't even know Wolverine's name was Wolverine thanks to Department H messing with their memories. Nice try
You obviously ignored my post in the other thread now didn't you?
Yes Alpha Flight v2 1 is a continuity error. Mac has the Guardian armor and Wolverine is still with Department H, is feral but has his long "eared" X-Men cowl. It doesn't fit any where in continuity unless you use a lot imagination. But then a lot of Wolverine's continuity is a mess thats hard to place but that doesn't mean it never happened. Besides it is likely that Hudson was working on the Guardian suit while Wolverine was still a member of Department H and considering the Canadian Government's penchant for messing with the minds of their soldier it is possible that the but Wolverine in a temporary animistic state in order to test the capabilities of an early Guardian armor model. Sure we weren't given enough on panel information to even begin to explain what was happening in that issue (really it is just one of many examples of Marvel garbage in the the '90's) but that doesn't mean that it can't be explained with a little ingenuity.
Moving on.
I believe your exact words were "haha bull when has Wolverine ever and I mean ever beat Mac?" so I listed three examples of Wolverine having the advantage through a fight with Mac. Now I'm not condoning any of this fights (haven't I already said Wolverine can't beat Guardian?) but you want to know when Wolverine has beaten Guardian so I told you. If you don't want me to answer your questions in the future, then don't ask them.
Also I don't recall Storm ever saying anything about Alpha Flight fighting like clones... or any of the x-men commenting on Alpha Flight's fighting ability. The closest to that was Wolverine saying "are you day dreaming Mac" (or something along those lines) and in true Mac was off his game fighting with his brain washing and actual memories of Wolverine that were penetrating the haze of false ones.
... and when has it ever been said that Wolverine can't pierce the Guardian armor?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yes Alpha Flight v2 1 is a continuity error. Mac has the Guardian armor and Wolverine is still with Department H, is feral but has his long "eared" X-Men cowl. It doesn't fit any where in continuity unless you use a lot imagination. But then a lot of Wolverine's continuity is a mess thats hard to place but that doesn't mean it never happened. Besides it is likely that Hudson was working on the Guardian suit while Wolverine was still a member of Department H and considering the Canadian Government's penchant for messing with the minds of their soldier it is possible that the but Wolverine in a temporary animistic state in order to test the capabilities of an early Guardian armor model. Sure we weren't given enough on panel information to even begin to explain what was happening in that issue (really it is just one of many examples of Marvel garbage in the the '90's) but that doesn't mean that it can't be explained with a little ingenuity.Moving on.
I believe your exact words were "haha bull when has Wolverine ever and I mean ever beat Mac?" so I listed three examples of Wolverine having the advantage through a fight with Mac. Now I'm not condoning any of this fights (haven't I already said Wolverine can't beat Guardian?) but you want to know when Wolverine has beaten Guardian so I told you. If you don't want me to answer your questions in the future, then don't ask them.
Also I don't recall Storm ever saying anything about Alpha Flight fighting like clones... or any of the x-men commenting on Alpha Flight's fighting ability. The closest to that was Wolverine saying "are you day dreaming Mac" (or something along those lines) and in true Mac was off his game fighting with his brain washing and actual memories of Wolverine that were penetrating the haze of false ones.
... and when has it ever been said that Wolverine can't pierce the Guardian armor?
No it was stated it was Department H messing with Mac clones mind so they could send the real Mac into space. The handbook made an error to what was stated in the actual comics as well. The scans I show were direct tie-ins from issue #1, it was clearly to show something was wrong with Department H as even the scans I showed earlier was proof Department H routinely altered their memories. Mac found out they were testing a virus on humans so they got rid of him. Here is the proof
1. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlightv219-AlphaOmega02-17.jpg
2. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlightv219-AlphaOmega02-18.jpg
Right and I did state and what did you say before that? "Wolverine has beaten Mac more times the to opposite has happened", he has never beaten Mac and that's why I called bull. Now your twisting your own words, you clearly stated he beat him, not advantage. No you implied he merely lost his first fight due to he lacked intel and would do better if he had any. Bull, did you even read the posts I made in the other thread? I called you up and proved your points inaccurate
Fighting like clones? I never said that. Read what I wrote "Storm made comment they were fighting like they were brain washed". Here's the scans in question. If you also actually believe their powers were not hindered and that Wolverine could get the advantage over the team your lost. That Guardian that fought was stated in vol.2 was a clone of the original Guardian but weaker.
1. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlightv209-NorthSouth-20.jpg
2. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/unc_xmen_v1_355_20_rougher.jpg
Wolverine himself stated it in UXM #140. Also I repeat his shields have blocked a nuclear explosion...you do the math. Hell just look at the respect thread.
Originally posted by King_Mungi
No it was stated it was Department H messing with Mac clones mind so they could send the real Mac into space. The handbook made an error to what was stated in the actual comics as well. The scans I show were direct tie-ins from issue #1, it was clearly to show something was wrong with Department H as even the scans I showed earlier was proof Department H routinely altered their memories. Mac found out they were testing a virus on humans so they got rid of him. Here is the proof1. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlightv219-AlphaOmega02-17.jpg
2. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlightv219-AlphaOmega02-18.jpgRight and I did state and what did you say before that? "Wolverine has beaten Mac more times the to opposite has happened", he has never beaten Mac and that's why I called bull. Now your twisting your own words, you clearly stated he beat him, not advantage. No you implied he merely lost his first fight due to he lacked intel and would do better if he had any. Bull, did you even read the posts I made in the other thread? I called you up and proved your points inaccurate
Fighting like clones? I never said that. Read what I wrote "Storm made comment they were fighting like they were brain washed". Here's the scans in question. If you also actually believe their powers were not hindered and that Wolverine could get the advantage over the team your lost. That Guardian that fought was stated in vol.2 was a clone of the original Guardian but weaker.
1. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/AlphaFlightv209-NorthSouth-20.jpg
2. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/unc_xmen_v1_355_20_rougher.jpgWolverine himself stated it in UXM #140. Also I repeat his shields have blocked a nuclear explosion...you do the math. Hell just look at the respect thread.
I'm not very active so sometimes I post stuff and have forgotten about it by the time I'm next on... I'm sure there are lots of unanswered rebuttals concerning comments I've made.
Anyway two Guardians were able to temporarily generate a electromagnetic shield to withstand the blast with help of Radius; don't act like it is some casually thing Mac can do all the time. Even with his clone and radius he wasn't sure they would be able to hold off the blast. And the disparity in power between the real Mac and the clone was that great. When they fought there wasn't that much of a difference and even Mac's advantage can be attributed to the fact that he messed with the clones head an proved the he wasn't the real Mac Hudson.
Storm never said they where fighting like the where brain washed, she said they were acting like they were brain washed... which is convent since they were in fact brain washed. There skills and training weren't hindered as a result of the brain washing, they just didn't remember anything about Wolverine. Mac's mind had just uncovered some real memories about his relationship with Wolverine that were in direct conflict with his tampered memories so he was more then a little out of it.
The fighting like clones thing was a mistake on my part. I was writing something different then what I posted and never changed clone to brainwashed after I went back and changed it. So just ignore that.
Oh, and I changed my wording from beat Guardian to "finished with the advantage" so I could include the fight from UXM 355/AFv2 9. Three examples are better then two after all. 😉
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm not very active so sometimes I post stuff and have forgotten about it by the time I'm next on... I'm sure there are lots of unanswered rebuttals concerning comments I've made.Anyway two Guardians were able to temporarily generate a electromagnetic shield to withstand the blast with help of Radius; don't act like it is some casually thing Mac can do all the time. Even with his clone and radius he wasn't sure they would be able to hold off the blast.
Storm never said they where fighting like the where brain washed, she said they were acting like they were brain washed... which is convent since they were in fact brain washed. There skills and training weren't hindered as a result of the brain washing, they just didn't remember anything about Wolverine. Mac's mind had just uncovered some real memories about his relationship with Wolverine that were in direct conflict with his tampered memories so he was more then a little out of it.
Oh, and I changed my wording from beat Guardian to "finished with the advantage" so I could include the fight from UXM 355/AFv2 9. Three examples are better then two after all. 😉
That's fine, your here now so all is well.
huh? Radius didn't do much as he can't extend his forecefield around others only himself. Clone Mac is stated to be in fact weaker, even demoted to Beta Flight being kicked out of Alpha. Hell he probally could as Mac's sent an E-M field around the entire Hellpounder which blocked the atomic blast. Well look at what Guardian has done, Heather took out two Great Beasts and Mac took down Galactus when the combined might of Alpha Flight/Avengers couldn't and he did it with one attack.
Actually they were once again as stated, as Department H blanked most of their memories and rewrote it to suit their needs..completly. Did we even see Vindicator use one blast? Even in early issues of vol.2 when General Clarke was running Department H Puck was making comments he was struggling to fight how he use to, as something was holding him back. What was which was revealed later was them altering his mind. Once again the entire team at that period were losing the advantage to Wolverine you don't think they were hindered at all? Memories is greatly impacted on skill.
But two of which are of a weaker copy and one that was brain washed. If his adamintum claws can't penetrate why would bone claw Wolverine still have the advantage? I just don't see it. However, my main beef was the fact you stated he beat him when he never did. Guardian is underated
1. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlightv191-19.jpg
2. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlightv191-20.jpg
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Durability
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Alpha Flight #94 (Vol.1)
Knowing the best way to stop Headlok is to activate Mac's computer mind, so Vindicator, Windshear, Human Torch, Shaman and Witchfire all attack him at once and all it did was activate his computer mind
1. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight94-15.jpg
2. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight94-16.jpg
3. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight94-17.jpg
