Originally posted by IKC
Not to mention that your claim that a rapier would have a reach advantage over a claymore is laughably ridiculous.
Look at how you hold a claymore.
Look at how you hold a rapier.
Again- brainpower is useful.
Light swords, by the nature of how they are held and used, have a greater reach than heavy.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I know plenty about swordfighting, thanks, which is exactly what I base my comments on.
You're a historical broadsword practitioner? Who knew?
The Fencer would win by a long shot. Sorry, but he would and they did. Like I say- there is a reason people switched to light weapons. That was, the heavy ones were crap. People using them died.
Uh, people changed to weaker, lighter weapons because firearms made heavier armor obsolete. Way to stay awake in history class. I'm pretty sure that there were no rapiers being used back in the Roman days when only the equestrians had adequate armor.
And GL and Nick Gillaird's thoughts on this matter are very clear- that the Jedi we see in the films are master swordsmen. The idea that they were all better in the olden days is void.
NG and GL deal with the movies. Unless you want to produce a direct quote where they say in effect, "PT Jedi > all" I won't even take your ideas on this seriously.
TOTJ has no real decent claim to continuity any more. Their idea of what the Sith is has been contradicted by GL. if you are going to predicate the entire argument with the opinion that all Ancient Sith are superior to modern Jedi, then you are simply biasing yourself out of any form of rational argument.
Really? Where does it say they've been retconned, Ush? Produce some evidence for us, please.
Originally posted by IKC
And then look at how the Hulk would hold a claymore.Sith Lords and other beings with great muscle mass have a far greater reach than any fencer you could bring up.
You do not hold a claymore with arms outstretched
If you did, someone would step inside your guard and you would be mincemeat.
You can only hold an extended guard with a light weapon.
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Wesker- well, are you a broadsword practioner?
"Uh, people changed to weaker, lighter weapons because firearms made heavier armor obsolete. Way to stay awake in history class"
Now, I am going to make this very clear. I already said that. Now, you will play attention to what people post. To not do so is extreme discourtesy to posters who take the time and trouble to read other people's posts properly. If you are not willing to do that- stay out the thread. I don't give many warnings on this, so please heed it.
And what was the only reason they were using the heavy weapons? To penetrate the heavy armour. And hence the very logical and historically valid (and analysed) point that once the heavy weapons were not needed, people switched to better ones. Lighter ones.
"NG and GL deal with the movies. Unless you want to produce a direct quote where they say in effect, "PT Jedi > all" I won't even take your ideas on this seriously. "
Movies override EU. That is the policy of this forum. Respect it.
"Really? Where does it say they've been retconned, Ush? Produce some evidence for us, please"
George Lucas does not think the Sith were ever a race- just a name, like Jedi. Sith as a race is an EU invention made when they never thought the name would come on screen. They have, and GL has talked of their history, and the TOTJ version is incorrect.
This has all been discussed and debated and shown many times in the mainstream areas and I do not intend to do so again.
Originally posted by IKC
Oh my, is someone "getting rather personal? Cut it out."
That was aimed at posts that did nothing other than attack others rather than comment on the argument.
I am very much attacking your argument, and yes, I will happily say that the mistakes in your argument are caused by a lack of thinking. That's fair comment.
Posting only to attack others and adding nothing is not.
See, this is the problem, you guys waste page after page talking about science when we are talking here about weapons which bear no relation to real science at all...... and miss the more fundamental point about how fights work.
Yep, course.
WHY would Kenobi even enter into a sabre lock? Why would the situation have even arisen?
Because that's what happens when two weapons collide, and the fighters try and overpower each other?
Try thinking things through, guys. Brainpower is a very useful thing, so try and apply it.Let's make some points clear here:
1. History is your friend. There are very important reasons why, in history, large weapons were only ever used, and were only ever useful, when fighting armoured opponents, Why? Because only a heavy weapon would penetrate the armour.
History? This is SW. As many of "us" have said before in this thread, people like Kressh or Sadow can swing Sith Swords at the same speed as lightsabre's. They can also take advantage of the fact that Sith Swords are weighted, and lightsabres are not. Weighted strikes have more power and impetus than non-weighted strikes.
2. As soon as armour was not being used, swords switched from heavy construction to light, fast weapons. This was because you didn't need to power a blow in any more- you just needed to stab your foe with your weapon. What counted now was a lightweight, speedy weapon that could be controlled more easily and was faster.
Again, this is Star Wars, not medieval history. Sith like Kressh use Sith Swords because they can swing them at the same speed as a lightsabre, and put more power and impetus into the strikes.
You put a man with a claymore up against a man with a fencing sword, and the claymore guy would get hit a dozen times before he could even manage his first blow. Now, this wouldn't matter if the claymore guy was in plate armour and the rapier couldn't hurt him.
Brilliant assumption. But Sith arn't human. Their strength dwarfs that of humans. Look at the scans IKC provided on the front page. They swing them so fast that only residual energies are left in their wake,
But a sabre cheats- it is light, but it is also devastating. It doesn't need to be heavy, it wins anyway. It is both fast and deadly.3. Your lock issue... this is another seirous brain failure. You assume that when fighting with a lighter weapon, someone who knew how to use it would fight in exactly the same way as they would when fighting an equal weapon.
So lets say, Obi-Wan would be able to not be hit by Kressh's sith sword? So, if Kressh attacked Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan blocked, would not Obi-Wan's arm get mashed up?
Say, for no readily apparent reason, Mr Claymore does get a blow in. Sure, if Mr, Rapier tries to block it directly, he'd lose his sword and probably break his arm.But Mr. Rapier actually knows what he is doing, so he would not do that. The number of things he CAN do are impressive. He can use the superior reach and dexterity of his weapon to ensure that the blow is never going to hit in the first place. or he can use his superior mobility to get out the way.
Superior mobility? To Sith that does not matter! They can swing their swords as fast as a lightsabre.
Or, and here is the clincher, he CAN block it, he just doesn't block it directly. When blocking a heavier weapon, you don't take it straight on, you direct the force away or downwards, with an angled blade and good momentum. It's easily done and this way a lighter blade with any decent quality at all can deflect a much heavier one without any great risk to the defender.
Yep. So if Kressh made a strike at Obi-Wan's head, Obi-Wan could bring it down? Nope, his arm would be destroyed.
Then once the blow is countered, Mr. Claymore's stupid, over-extended power blow of idiocy has left him wide open for a very quick kill indeed.This is not being made up. This is real life. So if you want to live by the sword and try and apply real life logic to this argument... the sabre wins. No contest.
And so yes- a very poor state of logic here. [/B]
Logic? Your argument presumes that Sith are identical to humans, which they are not. They are much stronger...
Originally posted by Ushgarak
That was aimed at posts that did nothing other than attack others rather than comment on the argument.I am very much attacking your argument, and yes, I will happily say that the mistakes in your argument are caused by a lack of thinking. That's fair comment.
Posting only to attack others and adding nothing is not.
Oh, so I can engage in ad hominem so long as I add the base qualifier that I'm not actually attacking you, but just your argument?
Glad you could clear that up too.
Movies override EU. That is the policy of this forum. Respect it.
And you've provided zero proof that the movies have overridden the EU in this instance.
George Lucas does not think the Sith were ever a race- just a name, like Jedi. Sith as a race is an EU invention made when they never thought the name would come on screen. They have, and GL has talked of their history, and the TOTJ version is incorrect.
Prove up. Nobody is going to believe it just because almighty Ush says it. Sources or it never happened, in other words.
Ok, Traya, you seem, to be suffering from a serious logical failure here.
First of all, mostly you just haven't read my post properly, about how a light weapon wielder would fight a heavier one. Try reading it again.
Secondly... you cannot say they could swoing these swords as fast as a lightsabre. A lightsabre is a lighter weapon. No mater how much faster you can swing the heavy weapon, you can use the light weapon even faster still. Just concentrate your brain on that for a few moments and you will see it become clear.
Other than those two points, your post is not worth replying to.
Originally posted by IKC
Oh, so I can engage in ad hominem so long as I add the base qualifier that I'm not actually attacking you, but just your argument?Glad you could clear that up too.
And you've provided zero proof that the movies have overridden the EU in this instance.
Prove up. Nobody is going to believe it just because almighty Ush says it. Sources or it never happened, in other words.
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Goi check it out. As I said, I am not repeating things already said to detah in here. GL's comments on the history of the Sith are easy to find, as are Nick and GL's comments on the master swordsman status of PT Jedi. GL called it the 'Golden Ag'e of sabre skills.
Now, the main reason I came in here when this thread was flagged was to confront this growing clique of people who think they have the right to decide how things do or do not work in here, and viciously attack those who do not conform.
This will end. I am fighting back against you people who think you have a monopoly on logic and sense. You do not, and frankly, I am disgusted by the general attitude shown in this area.
I am giving notice now- this will change. And if threads in here maintain this sort of attitude, they will be closed, and the whole section will be shut down if necessary.
No clique will be allowed to persist. be sure of that.
Yep. I'm saying that Sith can wield sword's so fast, that it doesn't really matter whether or not they have a lighter weapon.
With that kind of stength, whether or not you wield a lighter or a stronger weapon is a moot point. And one that you have failed to understand.
Oh, you won't respond? How arrogant... You make fallacies like "Sith have an equal physique to humans" and I still respond to your posts.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
-Goi check it out. As I said, I am not repeating things already said to detah in here. GL's comments on the history of the Sith are easy to find, as are Nick and GL's comments on the master swordsman status of PT Jedi. GL called it the 'Golden Ag'e of sabre skills.
Now, the main reason I came in here when this thread was flagged was to confront this growing clique of people who think they have the right to decide how things do or do not work in here, and viciously attack those who do not conform.
This will end. I am fighting back against you people who think you have a monopoly on logic and sense. You do not, and frankly, I am disgusted by the general attitude shown in this area.
I am giving notice now- this will change. And if threads in here maintain this sort of attitude, they will be closed, and the whole section will be shut down if necessary.
No clique will be allowed to persist. be sure of that.
Easy to find? Post a link then if they are so "easy to find".
You seriously think that smeone can wield a heavy weapon at the same speed they can wield a lighter one?
Feel free to believe that, but no-one can have any respect for your logical skills now, because that is an obvious fallacy.
I made no comment about Sith physique at all. So for another warningp stop making things up.
Goi check it out. As I said, I am not repeating things already said to detah in here. GL's comments on the history of the Sith are easy to find, as are Nick and GL's comments on the master swordsman status of PT Jedi. GL called it the 'Golden Ag'e of sabre skills.
What a convenient excuse. You're just not going to repeat it so we have to accept it, hm? What nonsense. You have to prove up, we're not going to just accept whatever you say like a bunch of lemmings.
No clique will be allowed to persist. be sure of that.
I'm glad you've taken it upon yourself to disallow freedom of association on these forums, Ush. God forbid any of us form friendships.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
You seriously think that smeone can wield a heavy weapon at the same speed they can wield a lighter one?Feel free to believe that, but no-one can have any respect for your logical skills now, because that is an obvious fallacy.
I made no comment about Sith physique at all. So for another warningp stop making things up.
You never send that, but your argument that I responded to was based on that idea. Ergo, its pretty easy to presume that you believe that Humans have the same physique as the Sith, when they have clearly been displayed to have physical powers that would make even the most strong of Humans weep.
Originally posted by Darth Traya
Easy to find? Post a link then if they are so "easy to find".
Nope, sorry, I am not going to engage any more. If you had an actual interest in the SW community at these forums you would find them very quickly indeed- I have made such links more times than I can care to count.
If you really need an example, GL's comments about how the Sith Lords started up merely thousands of years ago, based on no race, were made to Time magazine. I am sure you can track it down.
If you don't want to believe me, fine. I don't care very much because this is a hopeless and silly argument. But believe me, more fool you for not believing me, and for all of you for thinking you are so righteous. You think everyone who disagrees with you is stupid. Not so, I am afraid.
Now, I highly recommend that you all listen to my comments very closely.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Ok, Traya, you seem, to be suffering from a serious logical failure here.First of all, mostly you just haven't read my post properly, about how a light weapon wilder would fight a heavier one. Try reading it again.
Secondly... you cannnot say they could swoing these swords as fast as a lightsabre. A lightsabre is a lighter weapon. No mater how much faster you can swing the heavy weapon, you can use the light weapon even faster still. Just concentrate your brain on that for a few moments and you will see it become clear.
Other than those two points, your post is not worth replying to.
I think you're missing the point. We've PROVEN that the Sith aren't hampered by the weight of their weapon when it comes to swinging it. Also, it has more range than a lightsaber, more weight behind it, and we know that the people using it are -very- skilled and experienced with it.
You're basically riding on this idea that Random Lightsaber User X is going to A ) not get hit, B ) be able to pierce the Sith's guard, and C ) do this without having to block a single hit or erroneously getting into a saberlock in which case they'd lose horribly.
Those are some pretty big, unsupported assumptions there.
And it's not very "moderator like" to strongarm people into following your opinions because they somehow reflect board policy. You have made assertions that need proof. You have provided none. Ergo, you have not won the debate.
Originally posted by IKC
What a convenient excuse. You're just not going to repeat it so we have to accept it, hm? What nonsense. You have to prove up, we're not going to just accept whatever you say like a bunch of lemmings.I'm glad you've taken it upon yourself to disallow freedom of association on these forums, Ush. God forbid any of us form friendships.
Yes, You should accept it. You should learn a bit of respect for once. I know what I am talking about, any quick look at the main SW areas will show that, and not fornothing am I in charge around here. I'm sick of every lguy that comes along expecting me to prove my credentials opver and over and over. It's been done- make the effort yourself.
Friendship is one thing. Hostile clique mentality is naother, You are turning this place into a hostile wasteland that new posters are afraid to go near, and provoking any number of unpleasant confrontationns
This is not up for debate, this is a statement of intent. It won't be allowed any more.
Nope, sorry, I am not going to engage any more. If you had an actual interest in the SW community at these forums you would find them very quickly indeed- I have made such links more times than I can care to count.
Very quickly? If you post a link, then I will assess it. I'm not trouncing through pages on google to look for obscure Lucas quotes.
If you really need an example, GL's comments about how the Sith Lords started up merely thousands of years ago, based on no race, were made to Time magazine. I am sure you can track it down.
As I said in the first rebuttal, please provide a link to it.
If you don't want to believe me, fine. I don't care very much because this is a hopeless and silly argument. But believe me, more fool you for not believing me, and for all of you for thinking you are so righteous. You think everyone who disagrees with you is stupid. Not so, I am afraid.Now, I highly recommend that you all listen to my comments very closely.
So, your saying that you are more right than us? Despite the fact that we have displayed evidence for our arguments, and you haven't?
😉