Tulak Hord vs Yoda

Originally posted by Wesker
I think you're missing the point. We've PROVEN that the Sith aren't hampered by the weight of their weapon when it comes to swinging it. Also, it has more range than a lightsaber, more weight behind it, and we know that the people using it are -very- skilled and experienced with it.

You're basically riding on this idea that Random Lightsaber User X is going to A ) not get hit, B ) be able to pierce the Sith's guard, and C ) do this without having to block a single hit or erroneously getting into a saberlock in which case they'd lose horribly.

Those are some pretty big, unsupported assumptions there.

And it's not very "moderator like" to strongarm people into following your opinions because they somehow reflect board policy. You have made assertions that need proof. You have provided none. Ergo, you have not won the debate.

They are supported. I think they are supported very well, by any standard of argument. Certainly much more supported than your insane blanket declaration that all earlier era Sith were better swordsman.

You guys just don't like being stood up to. That's most of the problem. In the area of serious, intelligent debate, it was actually expected that decent fans knew about things like the PT being the Golden Age, it being common knowledge in fandom.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Very quickly? If you post a link, then I will assess it. I'm not trouncing through pages on google to look for obscure Lucas quotes.

As I said in the first rebuttal, please provide a link to it.

So, your saying that you are more right than us? Despite the fact that we have displayed evidence for our arguments, and you haven't?

😉

You haven't displayed the slightest bit of evidence worth a damn for anything.

If you can't be bothered to look for the quotes, fine, But they are there, and if you find them you will see.

Everyone- well, everyone reasonable- knows that GL never, ever, ever considered the Sith to be a race. It;s a totally apocryphal EU invention.

And as I say, all serious fans know about the PT being the Golden Age. You can;t just say things used to be better.

Yes, You should accept it. You should learn a bit of respect for once. I know what I am talking about, any quick look at the main SW areas will show that, and not fornothing am I in charge around here. I'm sick of every lguy that comes along expecting me to prove my credentials opver and over and over. It's been done- make the effort yourself.

Ush, if we're going to go by reputation then you're going to lose badly. You're up against the combined reputations of Janus, Traya, and myself. This is not to mention Illustrious, whom I feel will take our side on the matter.

This is beside the fact that your reliance on reputation only reveals the weakness of the side you're debating on. You have to prove up with a combination of evidence and logic, you can't just ride on reputation.

Friendship is one thing. Hostile clique mentality is naother, You are turning this place into a hostile wasteland that new posters are afraid to go near, and provoking any number of unpleasant confrontationns

We seem to have no shortage of new posters who come in and make the ten thousandth Plo Koon vs. Kit Fisto thread, Ush. Your assertion falls apart in the face of their existence.

Friendship is one thing. Hostile clique mentality is naother, You are turning this place into a hostile wasteland that new posters are afraid to go near, and provoking any number of unpleasant confrontationns

Where's this "hostile clique mentality"? If more than two of us disagree with you, this forum is full of hostile clique mentality? That's pretty damn elitest. Just because you felt the urge to post something contrary to what a lot of people think here doesn't mean everyone has to just bow to your opinion or feel threatened. And if anyone would turn this into a "hostile wasteland" it would be you by doing more than just trying to keep the peace, but instead inserting your own unsupported assumptions here and then making a not-so-subtle threat to dissolve this section. Earning respect and demanding it are two different things, Ush.

Any kinds of treatment Numan earned he had coming when he fell into personal insults and overall stubbornness that bordered on infantile. I understand your desire to come here and try and cool things down, but now you've just gone and made yourself the target of everyone's ire and are threatning people in this forum if they don't respect you and your opinion, which apparently doesn't need to be proved.

Typical.

They are supported. I think they are supported very well, by any standard of argument,. Certainly much more supported than yout insnane blanket declaration that all earlier era Sith were better swordsman.

Insane? Why is it? You have provided no proof whatsoever that PT Jedi > Everyone else. You've made a few comments and not backed them up. Provide links... 🙄

You guys just don't like being stood up to. That's most of the problem. In the area of serious, intelligent debate, it was actually expected that decent fans knew about things like the PT being the Golden Age, it being common knowledge in fandom.

Golden Age? Yep, it's a Golden Age because there has been no war in a millenia, not because they "PWN Evrey Teh EveryONE Else!!!"!11".

Sorry, but elitist is what the community here is- as has been observed by many difficulties caused by this forum over time, and continually observable inside the threads. I can tell you rtight now that this area has a very low reputation indeed, beaten only by the poor repuation of the Comic Book vs. area.

Numan was warned along with you all, but you provoked him into those personal insults, which is simple trolling.

My threat is not intended to be subtle. It is very direct indeed. Nor is it up for any debate or discussion, Consider yourselves warned- shape up or this place goes down.

I will no longer tolerate this idea that people who do not live up to your artiifical standards- which you have absolutely no right at all to inflict- are somehow not worthy or inferior.

Get this- there is going to be no judge here, unless Rex or myself happen to feel like doing so. it is ALL opinion, and there is no rational basis you can claim as supreme unless it is from canonicity, and even then, interpretation is King.

The ludicrous lengths this thread went to on petty debates about irrelevant science, and using this as a basis to bash others, are truly pitiful. My patience is exhausted and I will stop this.

Like I say, it's not open for debate. Live with it.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Golden Age? Yep, it's a Golden Age because there has been no war in a millenia, not because they "PWN Evrey Teh EveryONE Else!!!"!11".

No, because they were talking specifcally about sabre skills, at the same time that GL was saying how we didn't see proper ones in the OT.

It most certainly was not a Golden Era in the sense you are trying to use there- it was quite clearly a collapsing, crappy era.

"Provoked him"? Where, when?

As soon as he came in with a differing opinion to yours, despite it not being at all unreasonable, you guys rounded on him and attacked him mercilessly, and it quickly became not reasonable debate, but a simple attack fest.

This is the attitude of the bully, and you all thought you could get away with it because you are bullying in a group. Well, no matter how big a group you are, I as a mod am bigger than any group of bullies, so I am here to sort out this mis-balance.

No, because they were talking specifcally about sabre skills, at the same time that GL was saying how we didn't see proper ones in the OT.

It most certainly was not a Golden Era in the sense you are trying to use there- it was quite clearly a collapsing, crappy era.

If it was a "collapsing, crappy era" why would they be "Teh BEST of Teh BEST!111"

?

It was the Republic that was collapsing, not the Jedi.

And please stop with that immature form of notation.

What do you mean by "immature form of notation"? Please, substantiate.

Ush, the "science" were were arguing was pretty applicable. It wasn't regarding the nature of the lightsaber itself so much as it was about swinging. The point was this: a lightsaber only has weight in the handle, whereas a sword has weight in the blade and the handle. He was arguing that a lightsaber has mass in the blade, and that it's more powerful, even though I showed scans of sith swords clashing with lightsabers and showing no ill effects.

Please don't try and bluff this out that this has been a reasonable debate from you guys. Long before Numan lost his rag, you guys were making comments like:

"Damn you're thick Numan."

or

"Numan = WTFpwned.

QED, kid. You've been trampled."

These posts on their own- simple group mentality attacks with no constructive purpose behind them. Then you wait for Numan to get annoyed, and then report him? That's what brought me here.

The thread is littered with such comments and attacks.

As for the science- I think Numan has a point. What do you know about sabre wieght? Nothing at all. A case could be made as to the nature of tis weight in lots of different ways. Numan's basic point is right- you can't use science at all in this instance. It's too removed.

But the real problem was that ti then became a matter of personal attacks based on scientific knowledge, and... no, sorry, I do not like threads turning into insulting attacks based on such silly reasons.

Lightsabres are weightless, ergo they have less striking power than a more heavier weapon.

It's a fairly simple concept to understand...

That strikes me as a comment of no relevance to anything being talked about. Sabres don't need weight to do damage, I do not accept (nor, really, should anyone) that sheer 'power' will ever win a swordfight where armour is not a factor, and you can't even prove that they are weightless- that's debatable.

I thought lightsabres being weighless was a fairly accepted fact and part of the general SW fandom.

Blimey, you must have missed out on the more dedicated fanboys! There has been enough talk about torque and gyroscopic effects and physical presence to fill a pretty large book.

Well, if you give me an official link that says that Lightsabres are not weightless, then I will accept that fact.

and you can't even prove that they are weightless- that's debatable.

Cool. Asking us to prove a negative.

So I want to hear the answer to this...

If we can't use science to evaluate on-screen and EU evidence in a debate that is, as you've pointed out, supposed to be structured around logic... how can I ever prove to you that the lightsaber has weight or doesn't have weight?

Indeed, how can I prove to you that Han Solo breathes in X amount of oxygen if the very idea of scientific method has been ruled out?

Hm. Let's try another idea: in logic, any explanations that require the most/more amount of assumptions and unproven points are discarded in favor of something simpler that still properly fits the issue.

Lightsaber blades are made of energy.

My answer: energy has no weight, Therefore, lightsaber blades are weightless.

Your answer: you can't prove that they have no weight. Therefore, they may be either.

Which sounds more plausible?